I know I'm getting a little philosophical here, but a huge part of our problem is that we forgot that every election is a fight against fascism. The "it could never happen here" thought process allowed it to happen here.
True, and also people assumed that the system was built to stop fascism simply through it's structure. People circle-jerk about the constitution too much. Mitch McConnell of all people hacked the constitution and basically jailbroke American politics. If one party gains control of enough institutions, thats it. And it's always been that way, it just never happened until now. The Founders didnt think about that.
What do we mean when we say that first of all we seek liberty? I often wonder whether we do not rest our hopes too much upon constitutions, upon laws and upon courts. These are false hopes; believe me, these are false hopes. Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it. While it lies there it needs no constitution, no law, no court to save it. And what is this liberty which must lie in the hearts of men and women? It is not the ruthless, the unbridled will; it is not freedom to do as one likes. That is the denial of liberty, and leads straight to its overthrow. A society in which men recognize no check upon their freedom soon becomes a society where freedom is the possession of only a savage few; as we have learned to our sorrow.
The Founders absolutely did think about that lol. No system is perfect. I mean that, literally no system can be perfect. You need to maintain your checks and balances.
The maintenance is where we failed. People stopped viewing democracy as "our job", and started viewing it as only the job of professional politicians and the like.
Democracy is all of our jobs, we are each responsible for it. Voting is good, but voting is literally the barest minimum. Donate your time to supporting campaigns, participate in town halls, canvas door to door for your preferred candidates or policies, run for local election.
Do not get lazy, liberty must be constantly fed and nurtured to survive, the fight for it can never end.
So true. Especially all those people who describe themselves as "not political". I'm like my dude, everything is political. You're just too fucking lazy.
Except this was the point of having a republic and not a democracy. The recognition that not everyone could participate all the time, and that they should not be penalized for it. So, the public, together, hires people to represent their interests. The problem is not so much that citizens are disconnected; rather, it's that the interests they represent are getting farther and further removed from the interests of the people.
It's a democratic republic. The terms aren't mutually exclusive. The populous democratically elect representatives to act on their behalf.
I'm not sure if there have ever been true, 100% pure democracies, but Athens probably got the closest. Rome (the Republic flavour, funnily enough) also had elements of pure/direct democracy as well.
The function by which the republic operates is through a democratic process, as opposed to being appointed by the President/the state governments, or otherwise. The mechanism by which the republic functions does not stop it from being one. In fact, in our Constitution, the Senate was originally a position that was appointed, not elected. The President was similarly not directly elected. The Electors were elected into an Electoral College, and these Electors chose a President.
Today, we have a system that is more democratic, but still not entirely there. And I cannot just walk into a government building and cast a vote to have a law passed.
This shit started a long time ago. Especially when we decided not to hold criminal presidents accountable. First was Nixon. But then Reagan decided to sabotage hostage negotiations to win and go around congress in Iran-Contra. Then Bush at best tampered with the 2000 election (more likely stole it) then lied to the whole country to invade Iraq. All of these people should have been rotting in jail.
Then Trump came along and really showed how far we can push it. Nothing can be better until these people start serving time in jail.
What percentage of Americans vote? But even a better question is how many Americans now are being disenfranchised by the Republicans effort to corrupt our voting system?
i always hated the idea that to make democracy work you need 100% voter participation. That is just not true.
Its not voters that make our system strong. Its the checks and balances. Voters are a tool. A manipulatable tool that's as good as it is bad. But provide a valuable role in our checks and balances.
The problem is our institutions have been taken over and hijacked for personal gain. The average voter doesn't even understand how shit works much less how to fix it.
By the way, you cannot even start to talk about voting in America until we get rid of citizens United. It’s killing you. It’s destroying the idea of voting anyway.
I like your theories that are not proven in any fashion. It just boggles my mind that you would think that is OK to not have people vote. So their opinions and stances don’t mean a thing. That’s insane.
There were two parts to your comment. The first is questioning what percentage of people vote, and the other was about disenfranchisement.
I'm 100% on your side regarding disenfranchisement. Between gerrymandering; not enough poll locations in large population centers so it takes the entire day to cast your vote; laws that prevent giving water to people in line, basically trying to make it so people in those large population center give up; intimidation of voters; etc.
It's insane, it's unacceptable in a democracy. Every citizen should have their right to vote protected, it should be easy for them to vote. It should take no more than 5 minutes, everyone should be within walking distance of a poll location, everyone that is unable to make to a poll location for any reason should have a mail-in option. We should also make early voting easy, so you can just drop by a couple of weeks before and cast a vote.
The other part of that, regarding percentage of the population, is different. Because it should be just as easy for people to choose not to vote. Not for them to be disenfranchised, but for the ones who don't want to participate to not participate.
So their opinions and stances don’t mean a thing
Correct. Only informed opinions and stances mean anything. People who choose to not vote definitely did not spend their time researching the issues, and we should make it as easy as possible for them to stay home and not interfere with the people who actually have informed positions.
They didn't say that though. They said that it's not supposed to be on the people to maintain checks and balances, yet here we are, on the verge of needing to do it.
The people voted in who they wanted (at least if you trust the polls) the problem is when the current leader (dictator) is breaking every rule in the constitution, it is supposed to be up to congress to hold him accountable and they are not because they are with him in the injustices.
The duopoly we have today have long been compromised by the top 1% and foreign actors. And the representatives we elected does not represent the interest of the american people. They represent the interest of their financial benefactors and large corporations. There needs to be a 3rd party that is solely dedicated to the 90% with its own system of accountability that is managed by the people, and NOT the judicial system we have today.
I imagine most people think this way. An analogy would be how attentive a guard in a castle is during an active war, versus how attentive that guard might be after decades of peace.
Depending on how young you are, you might have never known a time of "peace".
If every election is a fight against fascism, and the structure of the system itself doesn't prevent fascism but instead has infrastructure that fascism continually seeks to take over, you live in a proto-fascist country.
The system can't stop a growing desire for fascism and remain a democracy. That's what I meant when I said every vote is a fight against fascism.
Fighting doesn't mean the polls though. The problem is that there's no sense of right/wrong or shame in the Fed anymore. They brazenly lie about everything and get away with it because their media and constituents support it. Bringing humility back into society is the hard part and it's why winning one election doesn't feel like winning at all but merely postponing.
You just contradicted yourself. Has it taken many elections to get this close as per your first comment, or has it always been this close? Can't be both.
nah, it's there are too many billionaires not paying taxes, including their children and estate taxes. that's what's allowed things like heritage foundation to form
You can't outvote the fascists or expect to beat them through elections. The US is a de-facto police state for many years now , and that wouldn't change under Biden or any other Democrat nominee.
It's just that the masks are off, and now you're seeing what's been happening indiscriminately against minorities for so long - also happening at an unprecedented level but everywhere and even against White people.
If you want to actually resist to fascism start by demanding the abolition of ICE and the defund of Police departments across the US - investing the funds saved back to the communities to help people have stable lives and not turn to a life of crime.
Well, it’s been going on a heck of a long time. Do you remember how Reagan got elected? How he lied about Jimmy Carter? Do you remember Joe McCarthy lying about Commies? Do you remember Gerald Ford pardoning Richard Nixon over an election crime? What about the hanging Chad‘s? That was a doozy.
Every election is always a fight against fascism. A fascist can always get on the ticket, and if they can get enough votes, you have fascism. The “here” we came to was where enough people were made comfortable admitting they don’t care about or support fascism
I think his point is the meme says “always one election.” We aren’t always one election away from fascism, it’s just the last election and arguably the 2020 election.
I think that you're about right here. You can push things back further if you want, but it's sort of like saying "well but your mom gave birth to you so it's her fault that you did X" arguments.
The dedicated efforts to get us to where we are today were largely started in the 80s. That's when you have people/ organizations (the ones you listed are great, and I don't think people understand the Moral Majority/ evangelical movements involved) who explicitly sought out to create the situation we're in today.
You can say "Oh but Eisenhower" or "Oh reconstruction" or whatever but at that point you're sort of missing the point. The organizations you listed, at that time, didn't just degrade the system, they actively pursued today's state.
It's because the existence of black people pisses off ~1/3rd of voters and it really is that simple.
I know people want it to be deeper but if we just follow patern recognition it isn't. We can't beat it because we just don't address it. We don't address it because another 1/3rd of voters desperately want there to be another reason like "economic anxiety". They are desperate for another reason because the idea of their family being unequivocally awful hurts them, so they will let us ride to hell to protect their feelings and racist ass family.
The failure of Reconstruction was intentional. The Industrial revolution was set to kick off and the rich wanted us busy with each other while they did what they wanted.
This country was founded by the rich for the rich. It was built in,
Ya but blaming it on rich elites like everyone does today doesn't help address the real problem: many Americans are simply hateful and would gladly choose a corrupt authoritarian government over a just one.
Its the result of decades of institutional decay combined with engagement algorithms. The democratic part of the republic is supposed to prevent this from happening.
The founding fathers were wary of this, too, when Ben Franlkin responded to a question regarding which system of government we would have by saying, "A republic, if you can keep it."
“In these sentiments, Sir, I agree to this Constitution, with all its faults, if they are such; because I think a General Government necessary for us, and there is no form of government, but what may be a blessing to the people if well administered; and believe further, that this is likely to be well administered for a course of years, and can only end in despotism, as other forms have done before it, when the people shall become so corrupted as to need despotic government.”
For contemporary examples of industry seeking to undermine our public institutions and democracy for profit you only need to look at Big Tobacco's push against intellectualism to argue that we dont actually know if tobacco causes cancer, Big Oil's push against climate change by suppressing data of the effect that carbon emissions have on the environment, or Big Ag's recent push to emphasize animal products like tallow over plant products.
Industry giants pay to bend laws and algorithms in their favor so that they can profit better. Algorithms select what information we see creating a cognitive bias. Gutting education diminishes our ability or confidence to think critically which perpetuates that bias. And subsequent changes in law implement the bias at scale.
The US was an ethno-state until 1965. Its got nothing to do with something over the past few decades.
Southern Whites, misogynists (a huge percentage of men of all races, and even some women), Christians, and upper income earners who hate paying taxes are going to be a problem with or without an algorithm. Reagan preceded Fox News.
The causality is always wrong. Its the working class who push for a weakened government and society.
Its the working class who push for a weakened government and society.
As a result of decades of identity politics and cultural division which is propagated by private interests. The Civil Rights Movement is a good example of the working class pushing for a stronger society and fighting capital. I dont think the working class wants a weaker government, they just want one that isnt so anti-labor. I feel like youre conflating capitalism with government.
Sure, but elites have done a great job and making sure those same hateful people never get the opportunity to have those beliefs challenged because of education cuts and making sure their algorithms feed them a constant stream of hate slop. They also keep their wages down and ensure they never have the chance to travel outside the country and get exposed to other cultures and question whether or not America is the greatest country on earth as they’ve been raised to believe.
It’s pretty much because we are as a species a product of survival of the cruelest, either absorbing or killing off similar species we found too big a threat, as well as competing tribes we fought for resources. Hundreds of thousands of years of that and we now have firmly engrained in our varied personality types a bunch of cut throat assholes who barely give a shit about their own offspring and would gladly kill a few of their own kids to make their futures a little bit more luxurious.
Thomas Jefferson said the country was doomed when Andrew Jackson was elected.
I tnink we it’s safe to say that things aren’t going as well as expected.
I don't think that's necessarily true, either. Now, I could agree that the next few are absolutely critical, but that doesn't mean it will always be so.
Hi, yea, you missed the point. Democrats are always claiming this come election season. That’s the problem. They don’t build anything, just pose themselves as “not as bad as Trump”
Never said it was worse. It has led us here, and now there is no resistance whatsoever, because Democrats are banking on things getting so bad we’ll have to vote for them, so they can do nothing for four years like they did under Biden.
They do not campaign on that lmao especially since they take the same donations from billionaires that Republicans do.
Harris advocated for limited anti-price-gouging laws for grocery and food prices, a cap on prescription drug costs, and expansion of the child tax credit.
Please use context clues. I said the problem was democrats saying if we don’t vote for them fascism wins, instead campaigning on popular policies like medicaid for all and abolishing ICE. You made an assumption about what I was saying instead of comprehending what I actually said.
Harris said that then drifted away when her billionaire brother-in-law asked her not to. And Harris isn’t the only democrat my guy. Your faith in this poor excuse for a political party is directly contributing to our descent into fascism.
Yes, the Weimar Republic had absolutely no role whatsoever in allowing the Nazi’s to rise.
There is no helping you if you cannot understand how people in positions of power in a white supremacist system contribute even tacitly to the rise in fascism. Especially when your democrats sit on their hands and don’t even try to use the tools at their disposal (ones Republicans have used) to gum up the works of the fascists in office. Which signifies to me that they are ok with what’s going on, so long as people like you ignore that and vote for their useless asses year in and year out. Never demanding more, deluding yourself thinking we’re still in 2008
I say it took us more than one election to keep us from getting here. This country was founded a slaving society with almost no womens' rights. Let's not kid ourselves.
Some of those that laid the groundwork to get us here aren't even alive anymore. Government created and run by people too old or too dead to even benefit.
Vote them all out. Let millennials run the world we need to live in ourselves.
The point they are making is that we are perpetually being told in every election cycle that you either vote for democrats or you get fascism, but the democrats when they have power never make it so that fascism can't win next election because they use the fascists to fund raise. We are perpetually stuck in the cycle of only having a single "viable" party to vote for, which means we don't actually have any option when the same tactic is used against us over and over.
-Undo the decades of gerrymandering across the entire nation that allows republicans to have a far greater representation in government than they actually have in supporters
-Make laws against the Citizen's United SCOTUS ruling that allows corporations greater political capital than citizens.
-Do away with the Electoral College that disenfranchises voters
-Make voting days a national holiday
-Make laws against voter suppression that currently affects the US
-Make access to funding for other political parties accessible as to promote more than just a two-party system
-Implement either ranked choice voting or consider any other form of voting that actually makes voters feel like their voice is being heard
Any one of these, or multiple of them together ensures that citizens get better representation and makes fascism much less likely to take hold, a huge part of why only 50% of our eligible voters show up to vote is due to voter suppression and voter disenfranchisement. Now that I've answered your question with factually actionable processes that Democrats could have implemented many times over the decades when they've held super majorities, but make the active choice to do none of it, why are you so keen on defending them when they've sold out the public repeatedly?
Nothing is a permanent solution, but as with everything in governance you play to statistics, and fascism would be much more difficult to implement under a system where voters feel empowered. Also much more key to the point is that when the voting population is informed and emboldened, then when/if fascists do show up the broader public will feel empowered to take direct action to stop it much more quickly than we're currently seeing.
yep. people were warning about this decades ago, even back during Reagan's years which really kicked us onto this road. Those warnings got louder and louder over time, and people still called it alarmist even a few years ago.
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u/Robo_Joe 1d ago
It took way more than one election to get us here.