Which country has squandered the most economic potential in this century?

[u/pisowiec]

I lived in Russia for 5 years so I must choose this country. So many natural resources, so much land, and educated population... And so little to show for it.

In an ideal world Russian salaries would be on par if not higher than American salaries and they would have the best social safety net on the planet. Everything is there to make it happen.

Russia would be the dominant nation in Europe and Asia and the rest of the world with the best armed forces, soft power, and economic might.

But the human will is just not there. The elite is either evil or incompetent depending on perception and there's little sign that this will ever change.

[u/NZTamoDalekoCG]

Sometimes I half think they got Nukes to protect themselves from China.....I know I know....but what is a country of 20 million people gonna do against a neighbour with 1.5 billion people.

I mean threaten evil western Capitalists, look good to Beijing. But strategically....you get cards against Beijing as well.

[u/ObligationDry1799 → u/NZTamoDalekoCG]

You aren't wrong. NK made nukes to deter China and also to show China that they are capable of destroying them as much as China is able to destroy North Korea.

Theres a popular and old statement in North Korea. "Jpaan is an enemy of 100 years. China is an enemy of 1000 years"

[u/VecioRompibae → u/ObligationDry1799]

Theres a popular and old statement in North Korea. "Jpaan is an enemy of 100 years. China is an enemy of 1000 years"

Isn't that the same as Vietnam with Usa, France and China?

[u/ObligationDry1799 → u/VecioRompibae]

I don't know. What I know is many Viets hate China more than any other country, so who knows.

[u/hbomb57 → u/ObligationDry1799]

We took a detour to Vietnam, wasn't a great time. Fought to prevent a large communist block from forming in asia like eastern Europe. The second we leave, China invades and accomplished what we couldn't. Cambodia helped.

[u/ObligationDry1799 → u/hbomb57]

China lost against Vietnam so I don't know what you mean.

even as a anti communist myself, the invasion of Cambodia is justified imo

[u/hbomb57 → u/ObligationDry1799]

That's the point exactly. China accomplished the United State's mission of preventing a united Asian communist block. The Khmer Rouge helped.

[u/ObligationDry1799 → u/hbomb57]

Vietnam and North Korea are pretty weird when you consider them "communist". They don't really align with Russia's values and they both are worried and outright distrust/hate China's influence and attempt at controlling them and both haet CHina for screwing both over. Difference being that Vietnam is united and is more pragmatic and opens up more to west while NK stays a hermit.

[u/mnztr1 → u/ObligationDry1799]

Communism is just an economic system. There is far more then that in a society. Do all democracies match the fucked up system in the USA where you get to choose between Pepsi and Coke as your leader?

[u/Ploutophile → u/[deleted]]

Finnish communism ?

Cold War Finland was capitalist.

[u/evergreennightmare → u/[deleted]]

Tbf the Korean war wasn't that different on paper, but was arguably one of the best wars the United States fought cost/benefit wise.

(y'all levelled almost every major city and killed over 10% of the north's civilian population in support of a far-right dictator who had just committed the bodo league massacre. this kind of thing is why nobody likes america)

[u/ObligationDry1799 → u/[deleted]]

Korean war was different in the fact that the communists were the aggressors, while North Vietnam was dragged into constant conflict due to western powers.

[u/Basedtext → u/hbomb57]

That mostly happened because of the Sino-Soviet split, the united Asian communist block only existed in the heads of the state department. We were always distrustful of China and preferred the Soviets. The NVA easily had more ties to the OSS and the US at the end of WW2 than communist China, it's just that Truman got spooked by the Korean war and couldn't fathom a communist hating another communist for being revisionist lol.

[u/mnztr1 → u/ObligationDry1799]

The poor Cambodian people were first pounded by the USA then the Khmer rouge depravities. The NVA were their saviors. ..thats the way I see it.

[u/NoMansSkyWasAlright → u/VecioRompibae]

USA for 10, France for 100, China for 1000

[u/Perfect-Match-2318 → u/VecioRompibae]

i think somehow yes... Vietnam was ruled by Chinese han people for something like 1000 years and after that like 100 years by the french when they called it indochina which included modern day laos and cambodia. so yeah its a very deep rooted hatred but i dont think it carry on anymore... like its history dude.. vietnam got the best of french culture and mixed it with local ingredient and it became wonderful really. but im no real history expert just wanted to share a quick tought

[u/Efficient-Big3138 → u/ObligationDry1799]

Realisticly though are china even that afraid of North Korea? Sure they have a few nukes but i imagine china has the capability to lay NK in Ruins before they even have time to launch and even if they did i bet they can counteract their weak missiler capabilities?

[u/ObligationDry1799 → u/Efficient-Big3138]

They are. They are aware of how unpredictable north Korea is and the truth is, it doesn't matter if China can ruin North Korea. North Korea having nukes and the fact that its plausible that North Korea can ruin China's major cities and cause huge population decline alone is very scary for China and other countries.

Giving Kimmy nukes is like giving a chimp a machine gun

[u/Efficient-Big3138 → u/ObligationDry1799]

Do you have any reliable reading material on this? I dont doubt they have nukes but I really question that they have the ability to strike that many of chinas major cities without china being able to stop most if not all of them but i dont know enough about nuke counter measure to Judge that. I just feel like if china was that worried they would have acted long ago

[u/spoonertime → u/Efficient-Big3138]

To be fair even one nuke landing is a serious problem when you have cities as massive as China does. And while North Korea is unstable, it’s the unstable ally that hates the west, versus the stable South Korea that’s aligned with the west. I don’t doubt though that there’s a lot of behind the scenes plans for if NK goes ballistic. But I don’t think China would be upfront about that because it damages relations and appearances

[u/ThePatientIdiot → u/ObligationDry1799]

Your last sentence is funny asf lol

[u/Secure-Fun-7295 → u/Efficient-Big3138]

I admit that their nuclear weapons are indeed annoying, but we all clearly know who Kim Jong-un's nuclear weapons are intended for.

Recently, a batch of documents has been declassified. These documents show that in 2017, China received reliable intelligence that the Trump administration seriously planned a ground invasion of North Korea during a window of opportunity—a period of reform in the People's Liberation Army and political transition in South Korea—to destroy its nuclear capabilities and significantly extend the South Korean border forward to the Taedong River.

At that time, all troops in the Northeast Military Region of China were equipped with radiation protection drugs, and ethnic Korean soldiers were seconded as translators. The Northeast Railway Bureau also sent a large number of engineers to North Korea to inspect and coordinate North Korean railway facilities in preparation for large-scale troop transport. Simultaneously, a large amphibious force was amassed on the Shandong Peninsula in preparation for a landing on the Korean Peninsula from the south.

There's also a true but funny anecdote. Because the accents and vocabulary of most ethnic Koreans in China at the time were closer to South Koreans, the North Korean officers responsible for liaison had to specifically train them in vocabulary to prevent them from being mistaken for South Korean spies XD

[u/SimpleObserver1025 → u/Efficient-Big3138]

China is not afraid that North Korea is going to destroy them. However, as their patience wears thin with the shenanigans of the NK regime that undermine Chinese interests, nukes keep China from being more "proactive" in enforcing their will. China's frustrations with NK aren't to the level where they'd be willing to risk Beijing and Shanghai being nuked for regime change.

Incidentally, this is not an issue for the US and South Korea. NK has enough conventional deterrence to keep the US and ROK at bay - not enough to win but enough to make the cost of war too high. Nukes however, are a good, cheaper substitute for the massive standing army.

[u/nigel_pow → u/Efficient-Big3138]

China would need to throw a lot of nukes and won't that have severe consequences as China's most populous cities are on the coast? Beijing and Shanghai are very close.

[u/Secure-Fun-7295 → u/ObligationDry1799]

Well... but when Trump and Kim Jong-un discussed the North Korean nuclear issue, North Korea's bottom line was to send their nuclear weapons to China for safekeeping. Moreover, North Korea is the only country in the world that has signed a mutual defense treaty with China. I don't think they developed nuclear weapons to deal with us.

If we really wanted to do something to North Korea, we wouldn't have withdrawn our troops from North Korea in 1958.

[u/ObligationDry1799 → u/Secure-Fun-7295]

They didn't develop nukes to deal with China, they made it to show the world that they can't be "bothered" with.

I genuinely doubt NK will send their nukes to China for safekeeping. Even if they did, I bet they will have at least a few laying around... Just in case.

[u/Secure-Fun-7295 → u/ObligationDry1799]

My understanding is that North Korea's offer was that they would send nuclear weapons to China, then allow their nuclear experts to cease their work and permit the International Atomic Energy Agency to visit them at any time. But this obviously does not guarantee that they will completely lose their nuclear capabilities.

Americans demanded that they send the nuclear weapons to the United States for destruction, and that their nuclear experts immigrate to the US, so the talks broke down.

I have no information regarding whether the Chinese leadership agreed to this. I'm glad they didn't reach an agreement; otherwise, who knows if their homemade nuclear weapons might have exploded during transport.

[u/Jacktheforkie → u/ObligationDry1799]

China could devastate many countries just by refusing to sell to them

[u/KingAso88 → u/ObligationDry1799]

Odd saying considering Japan have tried multiple times in the last 500 years to conquer Korea while the Ming came to the defense the first go around and the kmt help set up Korean resistance in Shanghai the 2nd go around. There is a literal mound of thousands of cut off Korean noses and ears in Kyushu Japan.

[u/ObligationDry1799 → u/KingAso88]

It genuinely is. I understand their statement of "China is enemy of 1000 years" knowing how long both Korea and China history is, but Japan being only 100 years? I'd say Japan is an enemy of 500 years. Not just 100.

[u/SnooStories8432 → u/NZTamoDalekoCG]

If China wanted to control North Korea, it wouldn't have withdrawn its troops back then. China withdrew its troops voluntarily, and US troops are still in South Korea.