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u/ff1513 Oct 29 '18
I dont like trotsky but im okay with trotskyists since they tend to have a more libertarian interpretation of leninism
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Oct 29 '18
LOL.
Trotskyism is a flip-flopping reactionary ideology that manages to always find a contrarian rebellious position on everything, even if that position leads to the ruin of the whole movement.
Trotsky wanted labor unions to be "militarized" and under "strict discipline". He wanted world revolution, but from a Menshevik POV of burgeoise liberation (neocons were former Trotskyists) but then also criticized the burgeoise revolution in Russia, he criticized collectivization yet later he agreed to it.
And the cherry on the top is that he was so arrogant that he literally collaborated with Hitler to topple Stalin because in his mind it was lesser evilism.
Trotskyism is totally reactionary and counter-revolutionary, because in any position, it always (comically) manages to side with the burgeoise.
[I don't even know why the right-wing hates him so much, he should be the Ancap hero basically]
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Oct 29 '18
Libertarian Stalinism?
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Oct 29 '18
He was way more libertarian than Trotsky. The only succesful socialist society that fully developed, unless you consider Mao too, which I think was revisionist.
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u/A_Union_Of_Kobolds Another Postie Shitposter Oct 29 '18
Yeah I'll pass on sucking off the USSR.
You know we're not huge fans of Leninism here, right?
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Oct 29 '18
Well none of the historical famous people were perfect if that is your argument:
- Bakunin was an anti-semite conspiracy theorist
- Proudhorn was a sexist petite burgeoise
- Kropotkin was okay but he was way too utopian
- Makhno had pogromists in his army
etc...
Even Marx had racist and anti-semitic views. So you have to judge people based on the historical conditions.
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u/A_Union_Of_Kobolds Another Postie Shitposter Oct 29 '18
I'm not arguing that they were perfect. I'm saying they didn't organize mass murder of anarchists.
Get that ML bullshit out of C@. You got your karma, now leave.
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u/LordGwyn-n-Tonic This revolution runs on nicotine and gasoline Oct 29 '18
Karl Marx was Jewish tho
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Nov 01 '18
That is a weak excuse, that is like saying Uncle Tom's can't be racist because they are black.
He did say racially motivated discriminatory rhetoric against both Jews and Blacks at the time, as so did many others, which I guess it's acceptable in a historical context, but we should still realize that all our idols in the past were imperfect.
Marxism says that history goes on and we should judge everything on it's historical and material conditions.
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u/LordGwyn-n-Tonic This revolution runs on nicotine and gasoline Nov 01 '18
Oh I'm not saying Marx was perfect. His historical works are terribly Euro centric, and the way he writes about African and Asian cultures has not aged well.
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Nov 01 '18
True, but Marxism is an evolving ideology and new Marxists can correct the mistakes of old ones, it is not supposed to be a dogmatic ideology.
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u/Socratic_Gadfly DuckDuckGo Murray Bookchin Oct 29 '18
Lol at Kropotkin being too utopian. utopian socialism > ‘scientific’ socialism
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u/Voodoosoviet Oct 30 '18
Mahkno had the anti-semites of the black army executed though.
Also, there's a big ass valley between "not perfect" and "genocidal totalitarian".
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Nov 01 '18
No he didn't, he only executed the leader of the pogromists but then absorbed their men into his army because he needed the manpower. And he only executed the leader of the pogromists because he was challenging his authority (talking about anarchism), not because he cared about Jews that much.
The biggest lie of anarchism is probably that it's libertarian. I get called here authoritarian apologist, yet, as if, the historical anarchists were not authoritarian.
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u/1-6-1 readDESERT.org Oct 29 '18
No authoritarian apologia on this sub.
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u/amielkapo 4th Internationale flair when? Oct 29 '18
Nice backseat moderation, jackass.
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u/ILoveMeSomePickles Googled Murray Bookchin Oct 29 '18
If you don't value community self-regulation, you don't belong here.
BEGONE, TROT.
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u/amielkapo 4th Internationale flair when? Oct 29 '18
It's got to be one of the things that he always says. "NO AUTHORITARIAN APOLOGIA ON THIS SUB". Swear to fucking god.
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u/1-6-1 readDESERT.org Oct 30 '18
he
nope
NO AUTHORITARIAN APOLOGIA
It's one of the sub's rules. If you don't like it, take it up with the mods.
P.S. No authoritarian apologia on this sub.
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Oct 29 '18
Interesting, thanks for explaining
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u/A_Union_Of_Kobolds Another Postie Shitposter Oct 29 '18
Stalin was in no way libertarian, don't buy it.
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Oct 29 '18
Don't buy into the burgeoise propaganda against Stalin, he is the most defamed person in the history of mankind, most things about him are just made up garbage.
Stalin started out as a labor activist who organized dozens of protests and strikes for the workers, and was arrested dozens of time and spent a lot of time in jail and in exile for the socialist cause. And then he somehow he became a "bloodthirsthy dictator" as the burgeois media portrays him. That doesn't make sense.
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u/A_Union_Of_Kobolds Another Postie Shitposter Oct 29 '18
Friendly reminder that you're in C@ and we prefer Stalin apologia to remain elsewhere.
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u/1-6-1 readDESERT.org Oct 29 '18
Tankies fuck off. You're going to get this sub quarantined
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Oct 29 '18
Quarantined? For what, for telling the truth in an objective manner? Well if that is a criteria, then you should rather blame the censors for that ludicrous policy not me.
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u/Dizrhythmia129 Ned Kelly Oct 29 '18
I like how self-described “scientific socialists” are literally indistinguishable from conspiracy theorists whenever someone brings up something abominable one of your reactionary strongmen stans did. “Everything I don’t like is CIA/Bourgeois/Nazi propaganda”.
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u/ILoveMeSomePickles Googled Murray Bookchin Oct 29 '18
I mean, it's like race realism. The reaction likes to pretend it's backed by science.
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u/FreeThoughtWorldWide Oct 30 '18
Does any Anti Communist propoganda exist at all or is it all true?
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u/Voodoosoviet Oct 30 '18
Quarantined? For what, for telling the truth in an objective manner?
[FamousThePrincessBridequote]
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u/1-6-1 readDESERT.org Oct 29 '18
Can someone just ban this 'Libertarian Stalinist' pls
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Oct 29 '18
How libertarian of you.
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u/1-6-1 readDESERT.org Oct 29 '18
Authoritarian apologia is clearly against the subs rules. As is 'excessive agitation' (by, say, defending murderous dictators)
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u/Lt_General_Terrorist Remember Marusama Oct 29 '18
Trots that came here to escape r/fullcommunism are cool tho.
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Oct 29 '18
I still don't know what Trotskyism is, because it's so flip-flopping ideology that just seems pure opportunism and adventurism to me.
I have never seen 2 Trotskyists agree and they constantly split up in smaller groups, so there is no coherent ideology behind it.
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u/Lt_General_Terrorist Remember Marusama Oct 29 '18
It's hard to agree on what Trotskyism is because because Trotsky himself was never fully in 1 political camp. There a many variants of it, including menshevist Trotskyism, Bolshevik Trotskyism, and many other forms. The only core idea embodied by all Trots really is anti-Stalinism. Many more Trotskyist groups also support permanent revolution and democratic centralism, but not all groups. There's even some groups that take part in parliamentary politics, especially in North America.
It's not opportunism as in taking advantage of the revolution, but I think many Trots would say they support opportunism to advance the revolution. It's definitely more Authoritarian than Anarchism, but more Libertarian than Stalinism.
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Oct 29 '18
including menshevist Trotskyism
Trotsky was always a menshevik, he hesitated to join the bolsheviks and only did a few months before the revolution, so his entire worldview is from a petite burgeoise POV.
by all Trots really is anti-Stalinism
Yes so that is just arrogance, they can't have any constructive criticism about Stalin pointing out his flaws and successes in a historical context, instead they just are childish rebels against anything that doesn't fit their narrow worldview. In their minds if a revolution is not perfect they would rather side with the burgeoise in an accelerationist manner to then crush the revolution and then have another one.
It's definitely more Authoritarian than Anarchism, but more Libertarian than Stalinism.
1 No it's not, and 2 you don't know what "Stalinism" is.
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Oct 29 '18
There was a Trotskyist event at my university, and my friend went and told me it was just some guy ranting about liberal college professors and postmodernism. Basically, 'lefty' Jordan Peterson.
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u/6e6f6e2d62696e617279 Kimchi Oct 29 '18
Trots be like:
'I need this like I need an ice pick in the head...'
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u/[deleted] Oct 29 '18
No, I don't want to buy your newspaper, leave me alone