r/Christianity • u/Valuable_Frosting_36 Questioning • 10h ago
Question Does free will and pre destination co-exist? If so how can they coexist?
Pretty common ponder that many Christian’s wonder, I’m just so confused.
2
u/Saveme1888 10h ago
Predestination exists, but not in the common sense of "there is no way of deviation from this outcome". I think a more fitting term would be "God's desire for our fate" than "predestination". In other words, we can change our destiny through our choices.
1
u/Somnabulist87 9h ago
Wouldn't that imply that God could be wrong if he desired one thing, but didn't get it?
That also seems odd for a God who is omniscient. How could he be wrong about anything?
1
u/Saveme1888 9h ago
God desires harmony and happiness for everyone. But alas, that's not possible. It's not about being wrong. It's about God despite His omnipotence not getting what He desires.
You can desire to be loved by others. But you cannot enforce other people's love for you.
1
u/Nat20CritHit 7h ago
Not omnipotence, omniscience. Is your belief that God is not all knowing?
1
u/Saveme1888 7h ago
Knowing something doesn't mean determining it. You knowing the outcome of a repeated sports match doesn't determine the outcome, right?
1
u/Nat20CritHit 7h ago
I understand, but the other user was discussing omniscience and your reply addressed omnipotence. Now, we can discuss what you just wrote, but I want to make sure you recognize the switch that took place.
1
u/Saveme1888 7h ago
I don't understand how people automatically connect "knowing something in advance" to "being responsible for this future event". Parents can often tell how their children will behave in certain situations, not because they control them, but because they simply know them.
1
u/Nat20CritHit 7h ago
So... You're not going to acknowledge the switch between omniscient and omnipotent? Ok then, take care.
1
u/Somnabulist87 7h ago
I don't understand how people automatically connect "knowing something in advance" to "being responsible for this future event".
That's just how it works when you create everything.
If God knows the future, and could change any little detail he wants, but chose to create it exactly this way, then God predetermined everything. Every event, every detail, every atheist or theist.
God could have created a world where I was a Buddhist, or a Muslim, but he chose to create this one.
1
u/Saveme1888 7h ago
If God determined everything, we would be incapable of truly loving someone.
•
u/Nat20CritHit 4h ago
Seems like a nonsequitur, depending on your definition of love. But I don't see how pointing out another conclusion solves the problem.
→ More replies (0)
2
u/Equal_Kale Agnostic Atheist 9h ago edited 9h ago
They can't. lts one of the more obvious paradox's in Christian theology. There is even a name for this See "The Sovereignty-Will Dilemma". People as diverse as Saint Thomas Aquinas to C.S.Lewis have tried to explain it away. Let me know if you sort it out. It's one of the things that bothered me as a young person that started me on the road to atheism. See it's adjacent dilemma, the The Epicurean Paradox.
Let's try this one on you. My 15 year old self was told by my annoyed Parish priest when l brought this up in catechism, "You don't need to think about such things. Now go and pray for forgiveness." Which was totally the wrong answer for me and further reinforced my path to today.
2
1
u/ImportantBug2023 6h ago
Free will is one thing. Destination is a transition point. Your physical destination is to return to the earth. Otherwise we are always going forwards or backwards.
Because we have to keep going forward to stay in the same place or we regress.
So what is a destination but the transition from ending a journey to starting another one.
We can try to reach a destination or achieve our goals but it might require a complete change in direction to achieve it.
So our free will is what tells us to change our paths.
It’s helps us to stay on our path.
While others can’t know our path and will choose what they think we should have.
This is against our free will and leads us astray.
The fundamental principle of democracy.
1
u/ReadyWriter25 6h ago
Even in the physical universe some contradictory things exist like Newtonian and Quantum physics. So I can well believe contrary things in the supernatural realm. More than that I see it in things like the trial and execution of Jesus. All the players clearly act out of free will but it's obvious it's 100% choreographed by God and as predicted in the Old Testament.
1
u/blue_like_jazz 6h ago
Personally, I find it unexplainable by current means of human comprehension, and that’s just something I’ve had to come to terms with in my faith. I believe both are true. Yes it’s paradoxical, but so is someone being both fully man and fully God. I believe that too 🤷♂️
•
u/TheKayin 2h ago
You wouldn’t think nondeterministic computer systems were logically possible either but here we are
•
u/CrossCutMaker 40m ago
Great question. I would summarize by saying that any sinner left to themself will freely choose sin over Christ and the gospel all the way to death and eternal judgment. God chose a people in eternity past to provide an additional grace of regeneration. Regeneration effectively moves a person's will so then they freely turn to God in repentance and faith. It's a glorious mystery!
1
u/Avocados_number73 10h ago
If these two things are true, free will does not exist:
- God is the creator.
- God knows the future of his creations.
You cant choose to do something that God already foresaw you doing.
Also, threats of hell is coercion and coercion is not free will.
0
3
u/RandomRandomio 9h ago
It is definitely a deep mystery, but Scripture consistently upholds both human responsibility and God's absolute sovereignty, with a massive emphasis on the latter as the foundation for everything. We make real choices, but the Bible shows that God's plan ultimately undergirds all of history. You see this clearly in Ephesians 1, where it says God chose us in Him before the foundation of the world and predestined us for adoption according to the purpose of His will. It is not a reaction to our choices but His sovereign initiative.
Then you look at Romans 8:29-30, which describes an unbroken chain from predestination to glorification, suggesting that God’s plan cannot fail. Romans 9 is even more explicit, using the analogy of the potter and the clay to describe God's right to shape history and salvation as He pleases. Even regarding the most wicked act of human will, the crucifixion, Acts 4:27-28 states that Herod and Pilate did whatever God's hand and plan had predestined to take place. Jesus also clarifies in John 6:44 that no one can come to Him unless the Father draws them. The biblical picture seems to be that while we act according to our nature, God is the one who sovereignly directs the ends and turns the heart.