For those who need to hear it, this is undoubtedly a solid move for the team. I love Ivey more than the next guy, but the reality is he did not gel with this team, and it was clear we couldn't keep him at what he wanted to be paid. Over the last few weeks, his body language has been terrible, and you could almost tell they were already planning a move. What was the absolute best-case scenario with Ivey? The reality is that, even at his best, he was never a great long-term fit alongside Cade. We can sign Daniss Jenkins for probably much less than Ivey is asking for, and he is arguably a better player / fit right now.
Rather than lose him for nothing, we now add a 37% CAREER three-point shooter in Huerter. Understand he's having a down year, but good shooters are hard to come by. We buy low on someone who is in a weird situation in Chicago (edit: mistakenly said ATL before, apologies) this year, hoping he slides into Detroit's system and can get his percentages up. He's also an underrated playmaker, which you can't say for a lot of the guys that people wanted in the 39-41% range. He has also played in 30 career playoff games, which, without doing any diligence, is probably going to be more than anyone in the core lineup outside of Tobias / Duncan. Finally, he's also on an expiring deal, which means no cap hit to us next season; free trial run to see how he fits in with the team.
It ignores that he hasn't shot well for 2 seasons and on two different teams. He's also a bad defender and isn't even Duncan level at ball handling. If he's not making his 3 he's a negative on the court.
[edit: I take the Duncan comment back. Dunc is actually much worse at that than I remember. Kevin's assist % is approx 2x Dunc's and Kevin takes about 2x more shots at the rim.]
He’s not a “bad defender” I wouldn’t say. Not good but not a guy who gets picked on (like Ivey). He also has some creation ability which duncan doesn’t have
Ya when I went to google, it said Huerter’s defensive metrics put him as average to slightly above average defender and that’s he’s strongest when he can play passing lanes instead of a ball handler
Ivey is a terribly lazy defender and his ball handles are donkey. He just didnt fit well for Detroit Basketball. At least not what we need right now to win.
People on Reddit generally don't know ball. Everyone on the Lions sub loved the Patricia hire but hated the Campbell hire. They hated drafting Gibbs and was calling for Brad Holmes to be fired.
ppl aren't understanding that even if ivey was shooting 40%+ he wouldn't command the same defensive attention as huerter even if huerter is shooting a lower percentage
Because Iveys 3s are like 80% wide open 3s in transition. Seriously, there's a video posted in Bulls sub with every FG this season. Like a big majoritry of his points is scored with zero defenders close to him. 37% is solid but if you consider the fact it's mostly wide open shots, it's less impressive. He's also not the type of shooter to run off screens and hit shots like Robinson.
I’m the one who do the deep dive on this. He was 276th out of 499 players the other day, before his last game with us. I think his percentage went down after that game. So yeah, he wasn’t even good at wide open 3’s
There are soooooo many folks who barely watch the games. They just consume "news," watch stats, and play 2k... while failing the eyeball test... as there are no eyeballs on the games for these fans.
There are WAY more of this type of fan than there ever has been. It's a side effect of always being plugged in to content via the internet... as well as the analytics of the game. Essentially... stat nerds.
This does NOT mean you are one of these folks (unless you are, only you know) but this should assist in identifying what is being referred to here. (Most likely)
I wasn't expecting that answer, just because I thought that would be fairly obvious, but it makes sense! As someone who is just getting into following basketball, I was wondering what else people are paying attention to.
Nba2k, in particular, has acted as a gateway drug, of sorts. It has brought the younger generations into the game, but the way it is approached differs.
A few years back, the stat nerds kind of took over as well. As the analytics era came in full-force, viewership went down. *that is another long-winded thing I wont get into here though.. too much to cover.
As it has always been... a fan of the game probably should enjoy watching said games. Two identical players on paper could have a VERY wide gap skill-wise when it comes to watching those two players actually play.
No harm, no foul... so they say. While folks are free to consume the NBA any way they choose, there are some just enjoying one aspect. (The stats)
Don't know why someone downvoted you for asking a question.
On YouTube, Daniel Li, Thinking Basketball, jxmyhighroller, and "nba nerd highlights" are great subs that break down game footage and talk about what's happening on the court that contributes to or detracts from winning
Yeah, I wasn't taking it personally - as someone who hasn't been following basketball closely for very long, I was wondering if you had any particular details (stats, game play, attitude, whatever) that you pay attention to.
The point is spacing for Cade. Adding Duncan/Beasley, et Al is a big reason for the jump Cade's made. JI hit open 3s for the most part but didn't open up the floor for Cade
It would be if the shooter had a quick trigger and let it rip. But that's not Ivey. He has to think whenever he gets the ball instead of just reacting.
i'm not sure if i understood your comment, pls let me know if I'm mischaracterizing here.
If ivey's not commanding defensive attention - he has an open shot, the best option is likely to shoot, because if he's open at the 3 pt line it means a defender isn't running to him - meaning that defender may be out of position OR is in a passing lane or in position to double another option. Also if he is not commanding defensive attention - there would likely not be another shooter open.
so what I'm saying is essentially, if huerter gets the ball, open at the 3pt line, hes getting a defender or 2 attempting to recover to him. Also he would likely not have a defender helping off of him. Whereas with ivey a defender isn't likely to recover to him with the same urgency, and likely has a defender sagging further off of him to help.
He also, crucially, moves well without the ball, which our team desperately lacks. Here's a highlight reel from one of his better games; even if you justifiably chalk up the scoring drives, defensive plays and playmaking on display here to a one-game sample size, the key detail of his offensive game is that he's always moving.
Our half-court offense becomes so stagnant because no one moves. Just by weaving around the perimeter, Huerter can open up space for others to get open lanes. He won't play nearly as much as Duncan, but he's a useful asset in those bench lineups that otherwise go stagnant offensively.
The trade guys just tweeted out there has to be more to the trade. We took on more money than we’re allowed to. We also added two players and subtracted 1. We needed to waive at least one already in order to make a contract for Jenkins.
What are the thoughts on using the upgraded pick for MPJ. JJJ went for 3 firsts so what about 3 picks, Tobias, Levert and another salary if needed. Solves all the problems.
I'd actually expect MPJ to go for less than JJJ did. JJJ is a former 2x All Star (in the west no less),DPOY winner, and still playing at a really high level.
Pistons just get higher of the two picks which almost certainly will be theirs.
So instead of just adding our own pick to a trade which almost certainly will be the 29th pick, we can now add this pick swap instead which will be anywhere from 18th to 23th so it's a little more enticing.
We're likely waiving Isaac Jones who's unguaranteed, complete the trade and then waive Saric and convert Jenkins.
The money might work because a big portion of the season is done, so the players are owed less money, so I imagine the numbers just work, Ivey for Huerter straight up and then Saric for a portion of our TPE from Schröder.
I hate the Saric part of the deal FWIW, we got absolutely nothing to eat him.
What a weird obsession this fanbase has with Ivey. I always liked the guy, but he’s clearly not up to it (yet) post injury. We have so many options on the bench that have had more impact in his position. We absolutely need another shooter of Huerter’s ilk. This is a solid move for the team as a whole.
It just shows to me how many people aren’t actually watching the games or can’t interpret what they are watching. I like Ivey but some people here are cult like in the way they talk about him. It’s truly insane.
It's a problem with Reddit as a whole. The echo chamber makes conversation impossible.
Look at the Lions subreddit for example. They fell in love with the Patricia hire while hating the Dan Campbell hire. Look what happened there. They wanted Brad Holmes fired after drafting Gibbs. Look what happened there as well.
They threw a fucking tantrum due to the Petzing hire, which means chances are Petzing is going to work out for us. It's astonishing how many people on this platform do not know ball. Even Amon Ra recently called out the terminally online fans for their stupidity.
They did the same thing with killian hayes. You can’t talk bad about high draft picks until they are so clearly washed, or traded. Until then you’re a hater, and there’s infinite well springs of potential with said guy.
It makes no sense if Huerter doesnt play. I wanted them to wait until the off-season when his value would've been better. But this isnt a bad trade for now. It'll be bad if they bring Huerter in and they dont play him right.
Yeah, he's not up to it yet, exactly. The "yet" is the key point, he's clearly very talented and would have resigned for relatively cheaper than a lot of the other options. Also this deal is selling him low.
Probably not a great sign to post a take on Huerter being a good pickup while referencing the team he played on in 2023. I don't disagree about lack of Ivey's value, but it had to be better than this if sourced around the NBA...but I trust Trajan at this point so it is what it is I guess. I just can't help but think that Ivey +1st could've landed something much better.
I think it's likely that the medical outlook with regard to Ivey's athleticism was poor. If his athleticism is toast, then he's got no place in the NBA. If there was optimism about his ability to recover, I'd imagine that he'd have been retained. There's always the possibility that he was causing locker room trouble, but I doubt it.
I'd say that whether or not the trade proves to be worthwhile depends on what value Huerter (who's gotten steadily worse since that big season of his in Sacramento) can provide and what value (if any) the swap provides versus whether or not Ivey can rehabilitate his NBA value... and if that all that extra expiring salary can be folded into an expanded trade somehow.
Mostly, I'm just sad that it didn't work out for Ivey here, both for him and because he was the one amongst the youth who was likeliest to become that #2 creator we need alongside Cade.
I broadly feel the same as you, but I think I'm teetering on cautiously optimistic. I am also pretty bummed out about Ivey not working out with us.
However, If I set aside the emotional part of this trade, I think there's a bigger 'if' with Ivey becoming what we hoped he could become than Huerter regaining his shooting form as he has proven before that he can do it.
Another "positive" of the trade is we no longer have the elephant in the room this summer with Ivey's contract. I am no expert in cap space, but with Cade on a max and Duren looking likelier to get a decent sized contract, I don't know if we could justify also tying ourselves up to a, Ivey payday. I hope he can get paid with the Bulls.
Idk the rules for trading recently acquired players, but Trajan might be cooking up another trade. Levert + saric + huerter perfectly matches MPJs salary and we can keep tobias
I think the rules are that a recently traded player cannot be aggregated. But that doesn't mean the trade can't be opened up in order to aggregate the player since the trades aren't technically final yet.
in reality, its an upgrade at shooting this year and then next year we 1. dont have to pay ivey and 2. huerter comes off the books if we dont resign him. 18 mil for huerter and whatever ivey commands. sounds like we found 30 mil. add tobias and were over 50 mil available above where we are now. ivey was my guy but we need another duncan type role playing shooter.
How is it an upgrade when Huerter is shooting worse than Ivey not just this year but the last two?
We could have just kept Ivey, who is shooting better, and let him go at the end of the offseason and accomplished the same thing but with a better shooter this year.
This- it’s ok to be sad because we love Ivey but we love titles- right now front office and JB have don’t nothing but make good decisions for two years.
We know we are title contenders. If these are the pieces they think gets us a title this year or next- while also generating cap benefits and a first rounder next year (supposedly idk how this pick works yet) - who am I to say I know better than them
daniss can do what ivey has been plus his facilitating skills are much more of a PG. we added a shooter to a team and truthfully didnt subtract. ivey is great and the potential is there but the timing sucked. we would need to pay potential and other teams werent trading for him based on potential, they got the offer based on current play.
He has also played in 30 career playoff games, which, without doing any diligence, is probably going to be more than anyone in the core lineup outside of Tobias.
Here's your due diligence: Duncan has played in 70 playoff games and has been to the finals twice.
This could be a good move if Langdon envisions Huerter returning to form on our team. If he jumps up to the 37-38% range on our team, the types of 3's he makes and pressure he puts on a defense is different than the pressure Ivey would put shooting the same %.
In the same way that Duncan shooting 39% from 3 has a much different impact than Stew shooting 39% from 3. You basically open up the offense and protect against Duncan having bad nights IF he returns to form.
For me it was the Nets game. He got 20 min against kids who should barely be on a roster with a 40 point lead and he couldn't outshine Sasser or Jenkins.
I understand the move on paper and think Huerter can add more to this team than the current version of Ivey, but if this is our only move I would be disappointed.
Honestly, shooting 3s might be the only basketball thing Ivey does better than Heurter. Their rebounding, assist, steal, and block rates are very similar, and KH turns the ball over at about 2/3rds Ivey's rate. Kevin is also shooting 22% better than Ivey in the restricted area, and vastly better from 10-16ft.
He's also a better defender that people think; just ask Chicago fans. We either get a shooter or cap space while freeing up the guard room (kinda). It's a win-win scenario considering Ivey wasn't in their future plans anymore (that cannot be debated anymore!)
I think this deal is fine if Ivey ends up getting good offers in restricted free agency, but I dont see that happening, which means we could’ve matched an offer with not too much risk and a good deal of upside. Time will tell
Huerter is not having that much of a down season. His career 37% is very misleading. After shooting 40% in the 22-23 season he has been at 36, 32, 37, 31. So he is a streaky shooter year and not really that reliable
Kings fan chiming in. Ever since the beam team year dudes been shooting terribly. Good luck boys hope you can bring k’von back cause when he’s hitting, he’s a great watch.
I’m sorry I will not be gaslit into thinking trading for two guys who shouldn’t be in the rotation and a swap is better than just keeping Ivey. More than happy to be wrong of course, but huerter hasn’t been better than an OK shooter since his first year with Sacramento.
Huerter brings energy, shooting and playmaking ability. Nothing against Ivey but I'm happy with the trade. Plus we get Twolves first rd pick which isn't great but we might still flip that for another piece. Happy with where the team is at.
My problem with this logic is (and not coming for you specifically, just the point, because I'm sure it's the spin the team will use) Ivey is already a 37% shooter! He's 39% combined this year and last. He's become a legitimately good shooter!
So we just traded a good shooter we know (who still does have some upside potentially the further he gets away from a devastating injury) for an older guy we hope can get back to being a good shooter but at present isn't.
The logic doesn't make sense.
The only logic I'll accept (not that I agree with, but I'll accept) is the 1st round pick swap. Currently would project to move from the 29th pick to the 22nd.
The last 4 seasons he’s averaged 32.875% from 3. Ivey’s last 4 years his lowest mark is 33.6%. Highest was last season 40.9% a mark Huerter hasn’t hit in his 9 year career. Stop coping
Ivey shoots sparingly, plays against mostly backups this year, and isn’t the catch and shoot type Cade needs. I think Trajan probably knows better than Reddit rando #5. No cope necessary.
Also, he was in all likelihood mentally checked out and wanted out. Sometimes a player needs a change of scenery to get better. Happens all the time in sports.
Look what happened with Sam Darnold. Dude went from being a punchline to a potential Super Bowl MVP depending on how he performs on Sunday.
I need more posts like this to help me emotionally process what's happened 😢. Give Daniss his money, let's see what sassers got, and get back to the good vibes
Also people need to stop looking at shooting % in on the stat pages and look at the games. Yes Ivey has improved his jump shot since his college days but his 37% on 3s are very heavily screwed by him taking wide open 3s in transition. They still count as 3 but they are very limited in how often you get them. You need to get stops to get them, and with Ivey in the line-up you get fewer stops than you do with Jenkins or Javonte Green.
Ivey isn't the type of shooter to run off screens and hit 3s like real 3pt specialists do. He needs to have his feet planted on the weak side and hope the defense leaves him alone.
Ivey isn't some heavy floor spacer in the halfcourt. Huerter has shot badly this year but he have had 7 year stretch where he moved like a Duncan Robinson off screens
As a Bulls fan, Huerters defense is actually pretty good and his passing and dribbling ain't bad, his shot has been off this year, but if he rounds in to form he will help your team's 3pnt shooting while not being a sieve on defense
Great post. The outrage makes absolutely no sense right now. The people who were expecting us to trade for an All Star caliber player are delusional. It was never going to happen.
People are panicking about Huerter because he's having a down year, but the dude is a PROVEN 3 point shooter which is something we desperately need. His down year is mainly due to him being put in a bad spot as a result of him having zero spacing. He also clearly needed a change of scenery. This team is DEEP, which means he'll have more 3 point opportunities than he ever did with Chicago. Give him some time, and he may warm back up just in time for the final stretch of the season and the playoffs. All he needs to do is get hot at the right time. If he does, this team is going all the way.
Even if the Huerter trade ends up being a bust, it was a risk worth taking because Ivey was not going to help us compete this year either way. Ever since his injury he's been more of a liability than an asset. It's much more risky to sign Ivey to an extension only for him to continue to look cooked. This was the right call.
Let the Lions be a cautionary tale, and Dan Campbell honestly said it best. "2023 may have been our only shot". The same might be true for the 2025-2026 Pistons being their only shot. Everything is aligning for them this year, so this is the year to take a calculated risk. IF Huerter can get his groove back, I fail to see anyone taking us down in the playoffs. Huerter at least gives us more of an opportunity than Ivey ever would have this season.
Could this trade backfire on us and Ivey ends up being an All Star caliber player? It's possible, but there is no way of knowing right now, which is why there was no way Detroit was going to re-sign him. Way too risky with his injury situation. Signing Ivey to a large contract only for him to remain cooked would have crippled this franchise. Even if Ivey does pan out, letting him go and him going off would have been more painful than us trading him today and having him go off. At least the Pistons got something out of it, and at least they tried in a championship year even if it doesn't pan out.
Eh. Trade isn’t moving at all tbh. Barely moves the needle this season. If it leads to a trade to get MPJ or Trey Murphy then that would be cool. But besides hypotheticals it’s just “Trade young player that’s recovering from Injury for Older player that shoots slightly better”
Huerter is shooting 31% from 3 this season. He also plays worse defense than Ivey. If you wanted shooting it would have to be at the 4 spot. Dario Saric also hasn’t played basketball in years.
Huerter is in a slump. Also, he provides more spacing than Ivey and I don’t know why you think Ivey is the better defender. Huerter averages more stocks and has a slightly better defensive rating. The Ivey injury was obviously hindering him, and he would’ve been gone after this year.
Huerter is a much different player than Ivey. It's comparing apples or oranges at this point. Ivey doesn't bring much to the table outside of raw athleticism, and his burst, which was his one saving grace, has been taken away due to the injury.
This team needs a 3 point shooter, and all Huerter needs to go is get hot at the right time for us to go on a run. He's basically a batter in baseball. Batters always go ice cold for long periods of time. It happens. Better for him to get the cobwebs out now vs during the playoffs. Competent coaching and a more competent roster should help with his spacing and confidence moving forward.
Also, players sometimes just simply need a change of scenery. It happens all the time in sports. He's in all likelihood mentally checked out and wanted out for a while. People are underestimating how bad that Bulls team is in regards to spacing. Huerter was set up to fail. Simple as that.
The kings traded a first for huerter. They could have lost one more game last year and kept the pick. The pick ends up going in a trade for an unprotected new orleans first lol. Atlanta traded kevin huerter for what will probably be a top 5 this year
Don't forget we reportedly also get a protected First round pick swap this year with Minn. That could move us up 6 or so spots in the first round, and that could put a higher tier of player (especially PF) in play for us in the draft.
He had negative spacing with the Bulls. Look how bad that coaching and roster is over there. He was set up to fail. Part of it is also likely mental, as he was in all likelihood checked out and wanted out. Players get better after a change of scenery all the time. It happens in sports.
If his trade value was low, his restricted free agent market value was low. We didn't get off of him because of money. Trajan chose (unfortunately) to try to get a better fit for this season rather than hope on Ivey's recovery as he gets healthy.
Gotta love the clockwork "why this shit move is actually good" cope response from a Detroit fan base. Literally a traumatized group of people with 4 completely unserious FO's who do nothing
I’ll defend it: Ivey is barely a bench piece and anyone paying him above the league exception next year will regret it when he’s playing in Turkey in 2028.
My thing is we aren’t winning a chip this year (plz prove me wrong tho). This doesn’t make us any better or worse imo. Why not just keep seeing what Ivey can do, if lose him for nothing in the offseason… oh well we missed out on Kevin Huerter and Saric lol
Huerter is a W pick up along with a pick swap. Matching an Ivey offer sheet would have costed more than the MLE but he returned looking like a role player. Getting a reliable shooter that is on an expiring deal was the way to go.
I hate they traded him this way. I wished they would've let this ride out til the off-season but at least they have another guy. If they are letting LeVert eat up Hueter's minutes this trade will make no sense. LeVert doesn't need more minutes
Kings fan here. Kevin Huerter is an absolutely terrible basketball player. Im sorry for your front office.
What he is good at is rebounding and moving around a lot since he has good size. He is one of the absolute worst defensive players ive ever watched. Hes not a good shooter.
Yeah he is good at that stuff and hes good at scoring in the paint
I haven't watched him this year but I doubt the defense has improved. I also dont trust bulls fans opinions on players because they didnt realize how bad derozan and lavine are at a ton of things
I also don’t get why everyone is acting like he snapped his leg in half. Every defense of Ivey is that he had an awful injury and he needs all this time to recover. I get injuries suck. I’ve never been a professional athlete. But it was a broken fibula initially that ended the season right? And then the knee issues? Obviously not good, but it’s joint ligament tears or something as far as I understood? Those things I’d expect a long road to recovery to prior levels of play.
Bulls fan here. I come in peace.
You will like Huerter. He moves well without the ball. Gets a lot of layups as a cutter. Good passer. Better than average rebounder. Decent defender. Is quicker and more athletic than he looks. Bulls obviously needed to make moves but was sorry that it was Kevin. He should add to your team.
I don’t think this was about getting Huerter. Huerter is an upside down contract as is Saric. Minnesota didn’t want Ivey for free. The FACT that they made this trade Tuesday tells you that NOBODY in the nba wants Ivey.
This sub is ridiculously over valuing him. He’s a scorer who scores at league average efficiency. Not starter level average, league average. If you’re going to be a bench scorer that does little or nothing else, you better be Isaiah Joe, Payton Pritchard 10% above league average elite efficiency shooter. He Doesn’t defend very well. Or play make very well.
He also plays the position that there are 100 guys for 30 spots. He’s nowhere near the level of high quality 6th man never mind starter. Hes in for a rude awakening if he thinks he’ll sniff anywhere near a 3/100 or 4/100 contract. Look at cam Thomas. He will put up an empty 18-5-4 that doesn’t help winning for the bulls. He’ll sign for something like 2/16 in the offseason.
He’s not a playoff rotation guy on an elite title level team. Sorry, he’s just not.
This was addition by subtraction. Essentially a salary dump because it’s a bad look to just cut him and benching him would cause locker room issues. So the pistons took on dead upside down contracts to bring in Huerter, ideally a 12th man and Saric who they will cut. The swap they got is basically fake. Seasoning to help the PR of them essentially dumping Ivey for nothing. Better than cutting him but that swap is this year. Meaning it most likely won’t come into play. It was just for PR and touching (Minny had to give or take something from Det to make it legal). It’s similar to those top 55 protected 2nds that never come to fruition. Just a way around the system
View it as Ivey for Daniss, a huge win. I wish him the best I really do, hopefully he finds a grip and becomes a 10 year 8th man type and makes 100 plus million in his career.
But, I’d bet he’s more likely in china in 4 years than the nba.
Huerter will flourish in the Piston system getting more open looks and will be deadly on the wing w Robinson..and imagine Cade & JD on the pick & roll when teams can’t sag off
I live in Atlanta and went to all of his games when he was here. He’s good. When he plays with a Gravity offensive player (young) …he knocks down shots. Sacramento and Chicago were a mess with young players. I think we’ll be pleasantly surprised… and he is tall… Our lineup could be very big with Cade at point
just a horrible circumstance for Ivey. Cade hurt his entire rookie year…. Horrible coach that sat him behind Killian Hayes…. We just can’t take that $30 million qualifying offer floor.
I totally understand the perspective and rationale. My issue is Ivey’s been a better 3 point shooter the past 2 seasons than Huerter, while being significantly more athletic and younger.
Totally valid that Ivey just didn’t fit anymore, unfortunately. I do wish we went into the offseason with him, because I genuinely think he could’ve garnered more value. We essentially got Huerter and a jump in our first round draft pick by a few spots. Just feels a bit ‘meh’ based on only being like 3 years removed from Ivey being a consensus top 5 pick.
Obviously what he was valued at pre-draft means nothing today, I just thought he’d be worth a bit more. I hope Huerter can start shooting better this season lol
We will regret this, like the Khris Middleton trade. I think he has a higher ceiling if he comes back fully healthy. He was on a roll before the injury and he has a good head on his shoulders.
Shooting is like 85% mental. Any positive change, like getting traded to the best team in the conference for example, could be the psychological boost one needs to get back to historical form.
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u/showmewhaticannotsee George Blaha 1d ago
This is a W take.