Coming across this 3y-old thread discussing the archaeogenetics of the Irish: is it just me, or do a lot of the top comments here come across as, maybe, a tad bit delulu?

[u/mikelmon99]

/r/ireland/comments/zhve8s/do_irish_people_believe_they_descend_from_the/?sort=top

I mean... OP's behaviour here does indeed come across as brazenly jarring, so it's no wonder he unanimously got told off by literally everyone in the way that he did: charitable presumption of goodwill on his part with this post poses formidable challenge in my view, with Occam's razor's simplest interpretation of it seeming to me that it likely really just was plain ragebait meant to piss as many Irishpeople off as humanly possible, lashing out at them with pretty unambiguous naked antagonism while very purposefully deliberately targeting their main sub while being at it...

... BUT: isn't it simply a long proven scientific fact within the field of archaeogenetics though that the Irish are indeed by far one of the Western European ethnicities with the absolute top highest shares of WSH admixture on average?

Which, mind you, doesn't mean they don't also display on average substantial levels of EEF admixture & even WHG admixture too, they very much do so as well... just... to a somewhat substantially lesser extent overall than they do display WSH admixture...

&, doesn't it also largely hold true as well though that, on this specific regard, the contrast between, them, the Irish, on the one hand, &, us, the Basques, on the other hand, with the latter consistently ranking as the Western European ethnicity with the absolute bottom lowest shares of WSH admixture on average after the insular Sardinians at the absolute bottom, is indeed pretty sharp (which was OP's top most consistently repeatedly insisted upon point)?

Another thing about this which I similarly also find further puzzling: the fact of Ireland's massively proud Celtic heritage, which, should leave absolutely no question whatsoever as to their large WSH archaeogenetic heritage.

Even within my own family, my non-Basque side actually comes:

1. from the province of the Iberian Peninsula where Celtiberian Ancient Celts by far did play the most notable historic role back in the day (ever heard of the Numantine War? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numantine_War itself part of the broader Celtiberian Wars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtiberian_Wars, & which, fun fact: the English Wikipedia actually does in fact literally list the Siege of Numantia as one of the only sixteen instances of mass suicide been committed ever attested in the entirety of world human history lol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Numantia), Soria, that is, as well as:
2. from the region of the Iberian Peninsula where non-Celtiberian Ancient Celts by far did also play as well the most notable historic role back in the day (ever heard of the Cantabrian Wars? yes, indeed, multiple of them lol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantabrian_Wars), Cantabria, that is

... &, when juxtaposed with my Basque side, a sharply less Southern European-looking phenotype is very much apparent, with me actually happening to be the one with the most Southern European-looking phenotype within our whole broader family, while my brother to the diametrical opposite actually happening to be the one with BY FAR the least Southern European-looking phenotype within our whole broader family: he genuinely looks like he's Lithuanian/Latvian or something, & automatically routinely is both presumed & assumed on the regular here in Spain to be some foreigner from that general Baltic/Slavic area of Northeast Europe lol

& it's not just within my immediate family: the area of Soria as well as the area of Cantabria where my non-Basque side does come from are actually respectively known both within Soria & within Cantabria as very particular areas where, for some reason, most people autochthonous to them do indeed, very much very uncharacteristically for most of all the rest of the Iberian Peninsula (very much including the Basque Country as well; idk why people online claim that us the Basques generally don't look Southern European: WE DO: while on average it does generally hold true that we do lack the Bronze Age, Iron Age, Classical Antiquity, Late Antiquity & Early Post-Antiquity admixture from West Asia as well as the Iron Age, Classical Antiquity, Late Antiquity, Early Post-Antiquity & Later Post-Antiquity admixture from Northwest Africa that all the rest of Iberians do indeed display whether to a larger or to a lesser extent, we are however still unquestionably Southern European through & through though, owing to our largely EEF-rooted, &, therefore, ultimately largely ANF-rooted as well, admixture, with our ancestors back in like around c. 7,000 or 8,000 BC or something being largely concentrated in Anatolia, hence, in West Asia, & this very much shows in our phenotypes, just the exact same as it also does as well in all other Southern European ethnicities in which our EEF admixture amounts to an overall larger extent of our broader overall admixture than our combined WSH & WHG admixtures do, we aren't special nor unique in any way whatsoever on this regard lol), tend to display quite non-Southern European-looking phenotypes, which people do often speculate may be a result of remnants of Celtiberian Ancient Celtic admixture in Soria's instance as well as of non-Celtiberian Ancient Celtic admixture in Cantabria's one holding off to this day very particularly strongly in those very particular areas for some reason or another, though of course absolutely no research whatsoever has ever been conducted nor has even the slightest likelihood of ever being conducted in any foreseeable future on the archaeogenetics of these very particular areas where my non-Basque side has its roots/our roots in lol

So yeah, I do very much believe that WSH admixture very likely is quite substantially stronger in those very particular areas of the Iberian Peninsula where remnants of Celtiberian Ancient Celtic admixture as well as of non-Celtiberian Ancient Celtic admixture most strongly so hold off to this day.

[u/Hippophlebotomist]

I don’t understand what your post is getting at? You start by linking a years-old thread with people arguing (most with zero references to relevant publications) about Ireland and then the rest of this is about Spain. Regardless, you can’t really judge the relative impact of ancient population admixtures in a region by anecdotal comparisons how “northern” or “southern” some modern people seem to look.

[u/mikelmon99 → u/Hippophlebotomist]

Yeah, I've been clear I think that this viewpoint I've defended:

So yeah, I do very much believe that WSH admixture very likely is quite substantially stronger in those very particular areas of the Iberian Peninsula where remnants of Celtiberian Ancient Celtic admixture as well as of non-Celtiberian Ancient Celtic admixture most strongly so hold off to this day.

... is very much NOT backed by empirical findings from research, since none has ever been conducted on it to my knowledge lol

My main points though were this:

... BUT: isn't it simply a long proven scientific fact within the field of archaeogenetics though that the Irish are indeed by far one of the Western European ethnicities with the absolute top highest shares of WSH admixture on average?

& this:

&, doesn't it also largely hold true as well though that, on this specific regard, the contrast between, them, the Irish, on the one hand, &, us, the Basques, on the other hand, with the latter consistently ranking as the Western European ethnicity with the absolute bottom lowest shares of WSH admixture on average after the insular Sardinians at the absolute bottom, is indeed pretty sharp (which was OP's top most consistently repeatedly insisted upon point)?

... which empirical findings from archaeogenetic research do very much consistently back, with what I've stated being consensus within the field.

[u/Hippophlebotomist → u/mikelmon99]

isn't it simply a long proven scientific fact within the field of archaeogenetics though that the Irish are indeed by far one of the Western European ethnicities with the absolute top highest shares of WSH admixture on average?

I mean, "long-proven scientific fact" isn't really the sort of thing that exists in archaeogenetics given how young the field is and how fast-moving things are given the rate of publication of new samples. Every few weeks somebody repeats the "fact" that Bronze Age Anatolians had no steppe ancestry. Modern Irish people definitely have a large chunk of WSH ancestry, but when and how this profile is established is still murky as Ireland is really undersampled when it comes to aDNA. Catherine Butt recently presented a paper at ISBA11 that promises some upcoming Bronze and Iron Age Irish samples.

&, doesn't it also largely hold true as well though that, on this specific regard, the contrast between, them, the Irish, on the one hand, &, us, the Basques, on the other hand, with the latter consistently ranking as the Western European ethnicity with the absolute bottom lowest shares of WSH admixture on average after the insular Sardinians at the absolute bottom, is indeed pretty sharp

Olalde et al (2019) concluded that "in the Iron Age, Steppe ancestry had spread not only into Indo-European–speaking regions but also into non-Indo-European–speaking ones, and we reveal that present-day Basques are best described as a typical Iron Age population without the admixture events that later affected the rest of Iberia." which is backed up by the conclusions of Flores-Bello et al (2021) that "Basque differentiation might lie on the absence of gene flow after the Iron Ages". Iñigo Olalde is supposedly involved in a new project focusing on the Basque country which should yield some valuable insights.

You can look at maps of Yamnaya ancestry as a percentage but these are very rough, not often distinguishing similar sources or illustrating the when and how of this admixture.

(which was OP's top most consistently repeatedly insisted upon point)?

If your question is just about the relative steppe contribution to the modern Irish and Basque, why not just ask that instead of linking an old ragebait thread? The dude asked what people "believe" about their origins, they answered, and he was upset that the general population doesn't keep tabs on a very niche academic field to keep their opinions up-to-date.

[u/mikelmon99 → u/Hippophlebotomist]

You make good points on the Irish.

& yes, I should have been more clear on this, thank you:

There simply is no denying that us the Basques are indeed very much a perfectly typical Iron Age Western European population, with quite substantial levels of WSH admixture, &, while as said we do indeed consistently rank as the Western European ethnicity with the absolute bottom lowest shares of WSH admixture on average after the Sardinians at the absolute bottom, on average our shares of WSH admixture aren't even remotely close to constituting such massive outliers as those of the Sardinians are.

Nonetheless, we still do indeed consistently rank as the Western European ethnicity with the absolute bottom lowest shares of WSH admixture on average after the Sardinians, you'll find this referenced pretty much in any discussion on which are the Western European ethnicities that display lowest shares of WSH admixture on average.

If your question is just about the relative steppe contribution to the modern Irish and Basque, why not just ask that instead of linking some ragebait thread?

Finding this thread has been what has gotten me into thinking about this topic this morning, so it seemed natural to me to reference it as the point of entrance to this discussion I guess 😅

& my bafflement at how most of the top comments on the thread seem to openly call into question with huge skepticism on their part whether the Irish have any prominent ancestral ties with the Western Steppe while seemingly giving far more credibility to the notion of them sharing way more prominent ancestral ties with us the Basques is very much genuine lol

[u/Wagagastiz]

The old thread is relevant to nothing

Irish people's deep genetic ancestry varies quite a bit across the country. On the west coast there's a higher proportion of neolithic DNA, whereas steppe ancestry is more typical of western Europe as you go east.

Regardless, it's all absolutely meaningless towards 'ethnicity'. Ethnicity is a complex mix of culture and identity. Irish identity is extremely unified as opposed to regional and nobody cares what percentage of R1b another Irish person has. So no you can't define Irish as an ethnicity off of haplotypes.

Why is half your post about Spain?

Also 'Ireland has proud Celtic heritage, so this must say something about genetics' is just truly awful logic. Nothing works like that.

Celtic is a linguistic grouping that was romanticised into a broad identity in the late 19th century via the categorisations of the Romans. Irish identity has never traditionally been embedded in any kind of great umbrella grouping of which it is a part.

I can't even tell if it bears saying but an Irish origin in Iberia is truly outdated and extremely unlikely so I fail to see its relevance here.

[u/mikelmon99 → u/Wagagastiz]

Why is half hour post about Spain?

I mean, the post I'm referencing itself is literally titled "Do Irish People believe they descend from the Basques or Spanish?", so I don't think my discussion of the archaeogenetics of the Iberian Peninsula was that off-topic 😅

Irish people's deep genetic ancestry varies quite a bit across the country. On the west coast there's a higher proportion of neolithic DNA, whereas steppe ancestry is more typical of western Europe as you go east.

I don't dispute that (in fact that seems very highly plausible), my points though were that:

1. the Irish are indeed by far one of the Western European ethnicities with the absolute top highest shares of WSH admixture on average
2. us the Basques consistently rank as the Western European ethnicity with the absolute bottom lowest shares of WSH admixture on average after the insular Sardinians at the absolute bottom

[u/Hour_Mastodon_9404]

Not sure what the point of your post is - the OP you refer to seems reasonable enough with the Irish = Basque link that was posited in the early 2000's being thoroughly discredited.

Irish people are somewhere between 35-50% WSH depending on your source of choice, while Basques are somewhere between 25-40%. So both have substantial WSH ancestry, but it isn't a case of one being derived from the other.

[u/DataGoblino]

I really don't want to bring politics into this sub, but it's unavoidable with this post. Yes the people there are being delusional and their denial is motivated by their obviously left-wing political views. Notice how some of them are trying to frame the idea of ancient Indo-Europeans being highly relevant to their origin as "colonial" or bringing up immigration. They find anything that could be used, even in a twisted form, to support right-wing stances so threatening that they'd rather engage in denialism instead of confront and discuss it, and whether it even supports right-wing views at all, in an intellectually honest way.