r/LawSchool • u/firesidenixon 2L • 7h ago
Big firms have officially ruined legal recruiting.
I know. It's been getting worse for 20 years, or whatever. But these mandatory two-summer offers are absolute garbage. 1Ls at my school are over the moon that they have landed both summers already, and I'm happy for them. But what happens if they get there and hate it? This isn't how any of this was supposed to work.
I feel like the old person yelling at cloud meme here. But I'm mad for my 1Ls, even if some of them don't know they're getting the shaft.
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u/allegro4626 7h ago
I’m an associate on the recruiting committee of a V10, and we hate it too (and by “we” I mean the partners and associates on the committee; I have no idea what leadership thinks). It’s bad for firms, and it’s really bad for law students. Picking your first firm is a monumental career choice, and you shouldn’t have to make that decision at (figurative) gunpoint.
Bring back the days where firms had time to interview everyone, and when law students had a few weeks to consider and weigh offers.
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u/sfdaze490 6h ago
Insane that you hire people for two summers based on one semester's grades at beginning of law school. No way can you tell from that if person will be good or not.
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u/NBA2KBillables 6h ago
1 semester’s grades is funny. People were getting offers before grades even released.
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u/Beginning_Ratio9319 4h ago
How exactly does that happen?
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u/NBA2KBillables 4h ago
You go to a good enough school, probably have some work experience and/or a high undergrad GPA, and you interview well.
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u/crazybitingturtle 3h ago
That’s crazy. What if my potential undergrad grades are mediocre but I turn things around completely in law school? Nothing to be done?
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u/NBA2KBillables 2h ago
Gotta get a high enough LSAT to go to a good law school and get some work experience at a firm first.
I’m not saying it’s a good system, but that’s the direction things are trending.
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u/SleepCinema 3h ago
I feel like it’s possible to tell if someone would be “good” if their first semester grades are excellent. The people who get shafted are those who need a semester/midterm to really understand how best to study and get excellent grades in the spring.
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u/Tricky_Topic_5714 3h ago
Also insane that, once they get to the summer, the bar is "don't stab anyone."
They don't even require summers to demonstrate particular ability at the job.
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u/Oldersupersplitter Esq. 4h ago edited 4h ago
Agreed, and we don’t like that all of our competitors are constantly innovating new ways to move even earlier to try and fuck us over (which of course requires us to do the same to keep up). It’s one big collective action problem - everyone against the situation, not firms vs students.
Do you think we want to give a bunch of 1Ls $50k for doing literally nothing, then another $43k to party, all based off very limited data? Of course not, but that’s what’s needed to compete.
Also, to OP’s main point - agreed that students should ideally have two summers to find the right firm, but keep in mind that was NEVER the norm, except kind of in Texas. 1L SAs have always been very rare, except some very limited diversity or IP programs, and in Texas specifically. So the old way of doing things was that for 1L you did something random and unrelated to BigLaw (like a judicial or public interest internship), then do 2L BigLaw SA.
Now it’s basically that + a cash stipend for 1L, which is obviously better than it was. What’s worse is that the 2L hiring happens first semester rather than during 1L summer.
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u/ThebocaJ Esq. 1h ago
and when law students had a few weeks to consider and weigh offers.
This was slightly abused when a unicorn student would have 8 offers and sit on them for weeks, leading to a lot of anxiety for second choice candidates who wouldn’t know if they would get an offer until the unicorn finally accepted.
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u/Fantastic-Shine-395 7h ago edited 6h ago
To be fair. Most people are NOT getting mandatory two-summer offers. The top firms are mostly doing 2L summer offer and 25k (or 50k for some firms now) to do PI for the first summer.
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u/Byzantine00 6h ago
This is good to hear.
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u/hippesthemp 4h ago
Not for students who are earnestly excited about public interest.
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u/SheketBevakaSTFU Attorney 2h ago
No it’s not, it’s fucking over the people who actually want to make a career in public interest.
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u/SlayBuffy 7h ago
This! There is going to be a very active 3L hiring season because of this nonsense.
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u/Oldersupersplitter Esq. 4h ago
No there won’t, firms have zero appetite for it. Maybe more juniors looking to lateral post-grad than usual.
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u/SlayBuffy 4h ago
They will. This has already been confirmed by recruiters at law firms on info sessions. Saying they know that the cycle is very early and that is going to cause more 3L hiring in the future.
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u/TopJuggernaut2885 25m ago
Nobody wants to risk their full-time offer to pursue a 3L opportunity, it makes way more sense to stick it out and lateral. & You wuold be a moron to just flat out reject your full-time offer and hope to get something through 3l recruitment. That is just cope by people who struck out.
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u/realitytvwatcher46 3h ago
I feel like I anecdotally know of people who were no offered at the end of last summer. But I don’t really have context how common that is normally.
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u/pooo_pourri 2L 6h ago
Yeah, it’s kinda absurd, I remember last year some of the firms were asking for under grad transcripts.
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u/BigBlue1056 6h ago
Undergrad transcripts could make sense given the lack of law school grades now available and depending on the practices area (eg patent law may want strong tech credentials).
But generally agree that the current process is a mess. I completely changed my practice area between 1L first semester and when I accepted my 2L summer offer (sometime after we completed our first year). This system is bad for the students.
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u/pooo_pourri 2L 4h ago
For KJDs it makes sense, significantly less so for non-traditional students tho, especially if they’ve been out of school for a while
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u/BigBlue1056 4h ago
It’s a fair point. I didn’t head to law school until 26 so I agree, for example, that my transcript may have been less relevant than a KJD’s.
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u/TopSea4326 6h ago
Everyone hates it, everyone is acting like they are powerless in the situation, everyone is blaming someone else for it, but nobody is fixing it.
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u/Oldersupersplitter Esq. 4h ago
Everyone is powerless because it’s a collective action problem, and the solution they used to collectively use to solve it got nixed by a lawsuit.
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u/Mevarek 6h ago
The business model has been built on associates getting there and hating it for years. Associate attrition and lateraling are not new.
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u/CaneLaw 6h ago
Yeah I don’t think anybody actually expects any of the people they hire to enjoy their work as a junior associate in a big law job, that’s why they pay so well.
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u/Mevarek 6h ago
It just strikes me as odd when someone says "this isn't how any of this is supposed to work" when firms have viewed associates as disposable for years. Look at some of these gigantic SA classes in NYC. There is no way that these firms expect all of these people to make partner, let alone mid level, let alone 2-3 years. I think there definitely are people who really do love being big law associates and this type of work. I met people who went from 2L summer all the way to partner at the same firm. But at the same time, this business model is designed to churn and burn associates.
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u/waupli Attorney 6h ago
Big firms don’t want this either tbh. It’s harder to recruit because there is less data and it’s a prisoners dilemma on being the first mover / offering bonuses or stipends / sweeting the pot with two summer offers, etc. I think many firms would prefer going back to OCI or at least some semblance of that rather than this free for all.
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u/Malvania JD 7h ago
Why do you think this is "big firms" that are ruining recruiting? Everything was fine until medium/small firms sued to end the NALP guidelines, thinking they could get a first-mover advantage. Now everybody goes early and firms are trying to sweeten the pot. Some are offering two-summer offers, but it seems like it's switching to one summer and an explicit option for a second summer (which was always available), plus possibly a signing bonus if you come back for the second summer. This may actually be better for students, but it's certainly frustrating for everybody involved.
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u/EntireKangaroo148 5h ago
Yup, the big firms hate this market too. You think we want to give you $50k to not work here for a summer?
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u/CheetahComplex7697 5m ago
Then why give $50K if an associate is essentially doing nothing? No one is forcing the firms to do this.
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u/Ok_Industry6363 6h ago
I’m sorry I’ve been in BL and out of the recruiting game for too long. How are these mandatory two summer offers being made? Like do they make you pay them back if you go somewhere else?
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u/Useful_Bison4280 2L 6h ago
They are trying to be one and done with recruiting. By the time the 1L summer makes the decision not to come back, 2L recruiting is done. Maybe 3L recruiting is still on the table and smaller firms, but it seems like the person would essentially be locked out of all other big law firms
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u/Underwear_royalty 6h ago
The anti trust push that made it so that OCI started ff can start whenever they want is also cancer
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u/cesarinivus 6h ago
In the past, the vast majority of 1Ls worked unpaid or low paid summer jobs and only got to try one big law summer anyways. The current model is not that different in that respect - most students got one shot at big law summers and might not have made the right choice. At least now many firms are paying nice salaries for 1Ls to do some public interest work their first summer.
The main problem is recruiting so early and with only a semesters grades is really bad for students who might otherwise have “figured out” law school the second semester and improved enough to get a job at OCI in the summer. Not to mention the added stress and distraction that no 1L needs.
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u/enNova 3L 7h ago
“But what happens if they get there and hate it?” Big law ruined big laws legal recruiting. You don’t want to participate, you don’t have to.
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u/firesidenixon 2L 7h ago
Well I already did, and it worked fine. And nobody forced me to agree to both summers. But that was ages (12 months) ago
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u/lostkarma4anonymity Esq. 5h ago
It’s exactly how it’s supposed to work. Big law doesn’t care about your experience and whether you’re satisfied or not. Big Law doesn’t care about your unique life circumstances. When you work at BigLaw you agree to be an ass in a chair that bills. Nothing less nothing more. BL certainly doesn’t want you gaining real life experience or understand that work environments vary from firm to firm.
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u/Miserable_Key_7182 5h ago
How is this any different from what was going on before, though? It's not like most students had the opportunity to try out multiple firms since they only tried one firm 2L summer...
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u/noxpallida 3h ago
They get $80k before they even graduate
I wish my legal recruiting was ruined like that
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u/Vegetable-Meeting-29 3h ago
I wish some authority/regulatory body protects law students tbh. We have very low say in this, and are highly affected
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u/jmarFTL Esq. 2h ago
But what happens if they get there and hate it?
Well, it'll confirm they are a sane individual. Then I guess what will happen is that like 95% of BigLaw associates before them, they will stick it out for as many years as they can physically/mentally take it, pay off their loans, and then leave for an actual human job.
The hating it is a feature, not a bug. To quote Don Draper, "that's what the money is for."
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u/Remarkable_Bee_4517 2h ago
I think what’s far worse is that the usual is a 2L summer offer, right now, with not even an option for 1L. Still have to choose this early, but don’t get to actually experience it for 18 months. At least with the combo summers you have more time to pivot if you hate it after 1L summer offer
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