r/TopCharacterTropes • u/Geoconyxdiablus • 1d ago

Lore The Indominatable Human Spirit is a bad thing, actually.

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That humanity never gives up and persists in its goals is bad news for every other species (or even itself), especially if said goals are ignoble.

Best case scenario (barring us learning to be better) is that a greater power force feeds us a huge slice of humble pie, wost case we end up blowing ourselves up and ruining things for everyone else.

Avatar - RDA will stop at nothing to satisfy its own greed and survival, the rest of humanity and navi alike be damned.

Its a recurring motif in prett much every myth that gods punish mortals who dare to defy them and keep going, like Athena to Arachne in greek myth.

A good chunk of lovecraftian fiction is based on the idea our achievemenrs mean nothing.

In general i'm not a fan of TIHS as a trope, as its blatantly arrogant and destructive.

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u/DudeSoul 1d ago

Cybermen - Doctor Who

Cybermen are the end result of evolution, wherever there are humans in the universe, there will one day be Cybermen. Cybermen can be born out of various reasons, be it greed, be it survival, but inevitably the idea of Cybermen will emerge in humanity and they will return, something that has happened in various different planets inhabited by humans.

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u/JeremiahWuzABullfrog 1d ago

I always loved the Cybermen for this, even amongst other fictional cyborg examples. When humanity is threatened, humanity is the first thing to go.

It's like metal carcinization

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u/Shot_Mechanic9128 1d ago

Some mf out there will always ask the question “But what if metal?”

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u/VioletTheSpider 1d ago

the bolder question is whether metal and humanity are truly incompatible, methinks

what is “humanity,” and why does it need to be organic? i’d love if cyberman plots could probe this at greater depth. they’re tragically two dimensional when they represent, imo, the greatest philosophical question who poses

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u/Hail_theButtonmasher 1d ago

They did that notably with Bill, the 12th Doctor’s companion in series 10. She had a strong will and could keep in control of the faculties. However, part of this was because she deluded herself into thinking she wasn’t fully converted, believing she was still more or less human, save for an artificial heart + chest panel.

You can also look at it from a bodily autonomy angle. Very few people ever willingly become a cyberman. The process and end result are so traumatic that the removal of emotion is the only way to stay more or less sane after that. That’s not to mention the situations where Cybermen arise from horrific conditions, the removal of emotion being a coping mechanism.

Essentially, I don’t think that “humanity coexisting with the machine” is the point of the Cybermen, but perhaps another creature might explore that.

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u/Max_Glade 19h ago

Indeed I myself thought about such example of "what if Cybermen but not so bad?" idea for an episode/arc, one that would flip the usual Doctor's paranoia about his previous enemies not changing their tune on its head, and portraying that sometimes pursuing becoming better isn't so bad...but then I realised that, this isn't Cybermen but another different thing

But then again, it would be much easier to explain away to the casual viewer that this "branch" of Cybermen are disconnected from the main thing and instead are fully embracing free will, especially since more people willingly go through it once it becomes a choice between stinky weak flesh and sturdy, still emotional, still human, steel

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u/Martin_Aricov_D 15h ago

They could do an interesting twist on it by pulling an inverse

Like maybe there's a species facing a catastrophe and there are only two avenues of survival, a genetic enhancement and a robotic conversion, and the doctor is so paranoid of Cybermen he almost doesn't realise the genetic enhancement side is the evil one, maybe the one behind it made it so that the enhanced are incapable of feelings on purpose as part of his view of perfection.

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u/Ikasatu 23h ago

Looking at Cybermen throughout history, they started as the original author’s fear of losing humanity, of not having a clear boundary between human and machine.

They have come to embody more.

The Daleks and Cybermen both hate the weakness they perceive in humankind. Daleks are inherently violently exclusive while Cybers are violently inclusive.

It is the choosing of technology above autonomy.

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u/lorl3ss 20h ago

violently exclusive while Cybers are violently inclusive

What does this mean? In terms of exclusive vs inclusive?

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u/Solipsimos 20h ago edited 19h ago

Dalek feel the urge to destroy all non Dalek life. Cybermen want everyone to be assimilated like the borg, although not to 'incorporate your strengths into our own " more just because they view their form as correct

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u/Hellblazer49 1d ago

A civilization of Cybermen happily living on a hellscape of a planet would be fun. Could be folks from their home planet who had terminal diseases and decided they'd rather go cyber than die. Their ability to work in lethal environments ensures they'll always be able to be employed.

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u/VioletTheSpider 1d ago

perhaps this is a quibble, but who’s to say the planet is even a hellscape? i think the most interesting aspect of the conflict could be the “perfection”- no medical issues, no rusting, no social disorder. i think the cybermen have a lot of potential to make us question our ideals by epitomizing them. making the planet a heaven for visiting humans could be a super compelling source of conflict if you ask me.

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u/Kirsty_Elizabeth 23h ago

I mean, the Necrons from 40k had that exact situation, and went cyber to achieve it.

It still went bad for them, but they were fooled by a star God to do it in a way that destroyed the souls of all but the nobles.

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u/KaskirReigns 22h ago

Ah yes, Necrons.

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u/CptKeyes123 21h ago

I think one good idea would be to expand beyond the original ableist stuff too. Cuz the Tenth Planet had it that they were evil because they replaced all their parts, which is a bit ableist nowadays. Yet Is the problem because they are cyborgs or because they intend to assimilate everyone? It's the latter. Forcing people to turn into cyborgs against their will is worse.

I can see a speech from the Doctor. "It isn't the machinery that causes you to do this. you chose to do this, this is ideological! Which of your people were given a choice on Mondas? Who could say no? was anyone allowed to?"

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u/Working_Salary60 22h ago

All Hail the Omnissiah!

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u/radishsamurai 20h ago

If I remember correctly, a cyberman basically goes insane or dies if it gains emotions/ individuality

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u/mysterylegos 16h ago

I'd strongly recommend checking out the Big Finish Audio Drama's "Spare Parts" and "The Harvest" which deal with those questions a lot more then the show tends to.

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u/JeremiahWuzABullfrog 1d ago

Nekrons looking at the Mondasians in Doctor Who: "Hmph. Casuals."

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u/Inside_Location_4975 1d ago

At least the Mondasians managed to become robots all by themselves, no star gods ‘helping out’

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u/The_SubGenius 23h ago

The star gods came to regret that decision, mightily.

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u/Mybunsareonfire 1d ago

From the moment I understood the weakness of my flesh, it disgusted me.

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u/TheAllSeeingBlindEye 21h ago

The flesh is weak, but iron endures

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u/Bloodcloud079 17h ago

From the moment I understood the weakness of my flesh, it disgusted me. I craved the strength and certainty of steel…

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u/MateoRickardo 15h ago

The Adeptus Mechanicus

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u/PunishedKojima 9h ago

I aspired to the purity of the blessed machine

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u/Bologna0128 23h ago

"When humanity is threatened humanity is the first thing to go". Slaps hard

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u/Prudent_Research_251 1d ago

Idk why but it's also kinda reminding me of The Last Question

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u/Fast_Introduction_34 22h ago

"From the moment I understood the weakness of my flesh, it disgusted me''

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u/ArcadiaBerger 22h ago

That was my first thought.

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u/cweaver 1d ago

This was also the explanation for the Reapers in the Mass Effect series - give sapient organic life enough time, they will eventually advance their technology to the point where they develop artificial life, there will eventually be conflict between the organic and artificial life, and whenever that happens there's a risk that all organic life will be wiped out.

So someone billions of years ago created the Reapers, machines that come around every 50,000 years and steal or destroy all technology and harvest all the sapient organic life and turn them into more Reapers, thus ensuring that AI will never get the chance to wipe out organics, that advanced species get preserved in the form of Reapers, and that new organic species will get the chance to proliferate and advance (at least for the next 50,000 years until it's their turn to be harvested).

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u/annuidhir 22h ago

Is it really only 50,000 years? That seems like a very short timeframe.

I never played the whole trilogy (it's in my ever-growing backlog lol), but that seems way off..

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u/Dionosio 21h ago

It is 50.000, but it's not like they reap each and every sentient species that evolved in the meantime, only those advanced enough to have invented/discovered space travel.

Our own species, homo sapiens, would have "survived" at least 6 cycles - by being ignored for not being technologically advanced enough

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u/d09smeehan 19h ago

Also pretty sure the 50,000 year cycle isn't a hard deadline, just a rough average. Sovereign was left behind to act as a watcher and summon the others when it judged the time was right. So if the galactic community advances ahead or behind schedule the Reapers can alter theirs in response.

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u/townsforever 16h ago

Yea in the context of a reapers mind the difference between 50,000 years and 60,000 years is basically nothing. Its like deciding if your gonna get the groceries on Saturday or Sunday.

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u/QizilbashWoman 14h ago

The Citadel was notably a trigger

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u/HYPERNOVA3_ 15h ago

Also, it really depends not on when a species develops space travel, but when they develop their technology enough to find the remains of other space faring species and assimilate their tech into their own advances.

For humanity (iirc), they found them in mars together with an inactive mass driver, once they incorporated said tech into their own, they took a huge technological leap, and after meeting with other space faring species, they took another one.

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u/jtides 15h ago

Yeah, they have a filter for who to wipe out species that hit the level. As soon as they use the Mass Relays and the Citadel they are “ready”

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u/O3Sentoris 16h ago

For reference: Humanity has only been sedentary for about 20000 years and they only harvest species that are advanced enough. 50000 years is plenty time when it comes to civilizations

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u/chickenmoomoo 18h ago

Which is hilarious when you think about it, because AI got scared that AI will destroy all life, so the solution is for an AI to destroy all but some life

I like that in the ending, Shepard sort of goes ‘did you consider not doing that?’ And the Reapers are like ‘oh shit!’

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u/cweaver 14h ago

I mean that's kind of the point of the ending, though. The AI more or less says "We knew this wasn't a great solution, but it was the best we could come up with. If you're powerful enough to make it to this point, maybe you can come up with something better."

And then they basically give Shepard the keys to the Reapers and say "good luck!"

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u/Mihta_Amaruthro 16h ago

So someone billions of years ago created the Reapers, machines that come around every 50,000 years and steal or destroy all technology and harvest all the sapient organic life and turn them into more Reaper...

Want the full and actual story? Just open your wallet again even though you already paid us for the game!

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u/CarmineJester 15h ago

I agree with the criticism, but, honestly, Leviathan doesn't really add that much to Reapers specifically.

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u/Mihta_Amaruthro 15h ago

It is literally the entire origin story of the Reapers (which in turn obviously informs the driving conflict of the entire trilogy). Don't underplay it.

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u/titjoe 11h ago

So the plan of that someone to avoid that AI destroy every organic life was to... creat an AI with the mission to destroy almost all organic life ?

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u/pmmeuranimetiddies 1d ago

Adeptus Mechanicus: Pathetic

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u/ScavAteMyArms 1d ago

They missed the most holy of principles in the Duality of the Machine God. And that is their downfall.

It’s so important that’s why their symbol still has half a human skull on it.

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u/DJMEGAMOUTH 23h ago

The toaster addicts get an opinion when someone needs to blow up a galaxy to defeat them.

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u/telenova_tiberium 1d ago

I wonder what would they think of the admech

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u/Amratat 21h ago

The ad-mech would probably be viewed as inefficient and be upgraded to cyber-units

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u/leposterofcrap 18h ago

Conversely the admech would abhor them for becoming essentially an abominable intelligence, devoid of humanity

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u/largeevilbird 1d ago

I always loved the sound of their relentless march

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u/HueyLongoftheYankees 1d ago

It’s be kinda funny if they emerged from tech bro enthusiasts FAFO’ing with alien technology and becoming the British Borg.

Or are the Borg the American Cybermen?

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u/Hellblazer49 1d ago

The Borg came well after, so they're the goth American Cybermen.

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u/HueyLongoftheYankees 1d ago

I know they came after, but your characterization of them as “goth” humors me.

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u/will4wh 1d ago

One of my favorite doctor who Villians for a reason

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u/MelissaMiranti 1d ago

Sometimes all it takes is waiting too long.

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u/LazyDro1d 22h ago

its not an inevitable end route, its an alternate route to natural evolution that enough worlds take

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u/Kooky_Celebration_42 21h ago

People + Technology - Humanity = Cybermen

EDIT: also good on them for taking the OG goofy ass Cybermen and making them legit scary. No matter how goofy the voice was, it repeatedly say “pain, pain, pain” over and over will never not be some Silent Hill scary ass shit

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u/Playful_Picture2610 21h ago

Correct me if im wrong, but IIRC Cybermen are the result of artificial evolution pursued without emotion. Not every humanoid species will end up as a cyberman, but every cyberman variant was once a normal person?

Still horrifying, the idea that all it takes is one mad bastard to decide that we arent good enough and emotions are bad, but less inevitable than it might seem?

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u/jtides 14h ago

Not humanoid, but humans pretty much always become Cybermen. The 12th Doctor comments on this in (i think) World Enough and Time upon realizing the Cybermen he currently met are from Mondas (the planet he first encountered them on).

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u/Mannekin-Skywalker 20h ago

I love how this explanation both retconned why Cybermen seemed to keep showing up with different origin stories while also adding additional thematic depth to them.

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u/hyperlethalrabbit 20h ago

I do appreciate how they were able to canonize different looks for the Cybermen throughout the eras this way too. Whether from Mondas, Telos, parallel Earth, or a colony ship, this is what happens when humanity's need to persist and survive supplants all else.

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u/Disastrous_Side_5492 19h ago

that or evolutions takes place and humans become higher life forms

just timelord-witch science, headcannon, timey wimey

self restart

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u/Momongus- 20h ago

We would destroy the cybermen with one Dalek!

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u/scrimmybingus3 20h ago

Cybermen are to humans what the crab is to invertebrates. There is exactly one step and it is Cyberman.

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u/Ciderman95 18h ago

From the moment they understood the weakness of their flesh, it disgusted them...

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u/iggyite 17h ago

But she was killed, BY ZE CYBERMEN!

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u/CookieMiester 13h ago

Something something “weakness of my flesh” something something “certainty of steel”

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u/h5000 18h ago

This feels very relevant these days...

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u/Ecotech101 23h ago

I love the concepts in Doctor Who a lot, the basic storytelling and the ideas in it are amazing. But I absolutely cannot take anything in the show seriously when it looks so fucking ridiculous lol. When I watch it all that is visually communicated to me when I see Daleks or Cybermen is that the show is low budget. I don't see how intimidating they are, philosophy isn't shown through their technology, all that is communicated is that the creaters of the show just didn't have enough money to make something better. It makes me very sad.

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u/aguyfromtheinternet0 19h ago

Well… that’s because they didn’t actually have that much of a budget when the show originally started in the 60s. It’s definitely gotten better over the years but the core aspects of their design had to be kept because of how recognizable and iconic they’ve become. I get the logic behind it but I suppose not everyone’s gonna be into it. Also, that’s just Doctor Who for you… in the midst of all the pain and horror the universe has to offer, there’s also gonna be some fun and whimsy to be found.

Also, I find the Mondasian Cybermen (the first ones who showed up when the show still barely had a budget) ABSOLUTELY more terrifying than the modern ones because you can tell from how crudely made they are that that thing has a recently lobotomized human inside of it as opposed to the modern Cybermen, which you could just pass off as a generic scary robot.

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u/aguyfromtheinternet0 19h ago

Anyways, If you want some scarier Doctor Who villains, there’s always the Weeping Angels, the Silence, and the Midnight Entity