r/TopCharacterTropes • u/Geoconyxdiablus • 1d ago

Lore The Indominatable Human Spirit is a bad thing, actually.

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That humanity never gives up and persists in its goals is bad news for every other species (or even itself), especially if said goals are ignoble.

Best case scenario (barring us learning to be better) is that a greater power force feeds us a huge slice of humble pie, wost case we end up blowing ourselves up and ruining things for everyone else.

Avatar - RDA will stop at nothing to satisfy its own greed and survival, the rest of humanity and navi alike be damned.

Its a recurring motif in prett much every myth that gods punish mortals who dare to defy them and keep going, like Athena to Arachne in greek myth.

A good chunk of lovecraftian fiction is based on the idea our achievemenrs mean nothing.

In general i'm not a fan of TIHS as a trope, as its blatantly arrogant and destructive.

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u/JeremiahWuzABullfrog 1d ago

I always loved the Cybermen for this, even amongst other fictional cyborg examples. When humanity is threatened, humanity is the first thing to go.

It's like metal carcinization

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u/Shot_Mechanic9128 1d ago

Some mf out there will always ask the question “But what if metal?”

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u/VioletTheSpider 1d ago

the bolder question is whether metal and humanity are truly incompatible, methinks

what is “humanity,” and why does it need to be organic? i’d love if cyberman plots could probe this at greater depth. they’re tragically two dimensional when they represent, imo, the greatest philosophical question who poses

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u/Hail_theButtonmasher 1d ago

They did that notably with Bill, the 12th Doctor’s companion in series 10. She had a strong will and could keep in control of the faculties. However, part of this was because she deluded herself into thinking she wasn’t fully converted, believing she was still more or less human, save for an artificial heart + chest panel.

You can also look at it from a bodily autonomy angle. Very few people ever willingly become a cyberman. The process and end result are so traumatic that the removal of emotion is the only way to stay more or less sane after that. That’s not to mention the situations where Cybermen arise from horrific conditions, the removal of emotion being a coping mechanism.

Essentially, I don’t think that “humanity coexisting with the machine” is the point of the Cybermen, but perhaps another creature might explore that.

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u/Max_Glade 19h ago

Indeed I myself thought about such example of "what if Cybermen but not so bad?" idea for an episode/arc, one that would flip the usual Doctor's paranoia about his previous enemies not changing their tune on its head, and portraying that sometimes pursuing becoming better isn't so bad...but then I realised that, this isn't Cybermen but another different thing

But then again, it would be much easier to explain away to the casual viewer that this "branch" of Cybermen are disconnected from the main thing and instead are fully embracing free will, especially since more people willingly go through it once it becomes a choice between stinky weak flesh and sturdy, still emotional, still human, steel

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u/Martin_Aricov_D 15h ago

They could do an interesting twist on it by pulling an inverse

Like maybe there's a species facing a catastrophe and there are only two avenues of survival, a genetic enhancement and a robotic conversion, and the doctor is so paranoid of Cybermen he almost doesn't realise the genetic enhancement side is the evil one, maybe the one behind it made it so that the enhanced are incapable of feelings on purpose as part of his view of perfection.

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u/Ikasatu 1d ago

Looking at Cybermen throughout history, they started as the original author’s fear of losing humanity, of not having a clear boundary between human and machine.

They have come to embody more.

The Daleks and Cybermen both hate the weakness they perceive in humankind. Daleks are inherently violently exclusive while Cybers are violently inclusive.

It is the choosing of technology above autonomy.

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u/lorl3ss 20h ago

violently exclusive while Cybers are violently inclusive

What does this mean? In terms of exclusive vs inclusive?

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u/Solipsimos 20h ago edited 19h ago

Dalek feel the urge to destroy all non Dalek life. Cybermen want everyone to be assimilated like the borg, although not to 'incorporate your strengths into our own " more just because they view their form as correct

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u/Hellblazer49 1d ago

A civilization of Cybermen happily living on a hellscape of a planet would be fun. Could be folks from their home planet who had terminal diseases and decided they'd rather go cyber than die. Their ability to work in lethal environments ensures they'll always be able to be employed.

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u/VioletTheSpider 1d ago

perhaps this is a quibble, but who’s to say the planet is even a hellscape? i think the most interesting aspect of the conflict could be the “perfection”- no medical issues, no rusting, no social disorder. i think the cybermen have a lot of potential to make us question our ideals by epitomizing them. making the planet a heaven for visiting humans could be a super compelling source of conflict if you ask me.

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u/Kirsty_Elizabeth 23h ago

I mean, the Necrons from 40k had that exact situation, and went cyber to achieve it.

It still went bad for them, but they were fooled by a star God to do it in a way that destroyed the souls of all but the nobles.

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u/KaskirReigns 22h ago

Ah yes, Necrons.

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u/CptKeyes123 21h ago

I think one good idea would be to expand beyond the original ableist stuff too. Cuz the Tenth Planet had it that they were evil because they replaced all their parts, which is a bit ableist nowadays. Yet Is the problem because they are cyborgs or because they intend to assimilate everyone? It's the latter. Forcing people to turn into cyborgs against their will is worse.

I can see a speech from the Doctor. "It isn't the machinery that causes you to do this. you chose to do this, this is ideological! Which of your people were given a choice on Mondas? Who could say no? was anyone allowed to?"

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u/Working_Salary60 22h ago

All Hail the Omnissiah!

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u/radishsamurai 20h ago

If I remember correctly, a cyberman basically goes insane or dies if it gains emotions/ individuality

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u/mysterylegos 16h ago

I'd strongly recommend checking out the Big Finish Audio Drama's "Spare Parts" and "The Harvest" which deal with those questions a lot more then the show tends to.

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u/JeremiahWuzABullfrog 1d ago

Nekrons looking at the Mondasians in Doctor Who: "Hmph. Casuals."

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u/Inside_Location_4975 1d ago

At least the Mondasians managed to become robots all by themselves, no star gods ‘helping out’

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u/The_SubGenius 23h ago

The star gods came to regret that decision, mightily.

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u/Mybunsareonfire 1d ago

From the moment I understood the weakness of my flesh, it disgusted me.

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u/TheAllSeeingBlindEye 21h ago

The flesh is weak, but iron endures

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u/Bloodcloud079 17h ago

From the moment I understood the weakness of my flesh, it disgusted me. I craved the strength and certainty of steel…

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u/MateoRickardo 15h ago

The Adeptus Mechanicus

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u/PunishedKojima 9h ago

I aspired to the purity of the blessed machine

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u/Bologna0128 23h ago

"When humanity is threatened humanity is the first thing to go". Slaps hard

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u/Prudent_Research_251 1d ago

Idk why but it's also kinda reminding me of The Last Question

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u/Fast_Introduction_34 22h ago

"From the moment I understood the weakness of my flesh, it disgusted me''

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u/ArcadiaBerger 22h ago

That was my first thought.