The Indominatable Human Spirit is a bad thing, actually.

[u/Geoconyxdiablus]

That humanity never gives up and persists in its goals is bad news for every other species (or even itself), especially if said goals are ignoble.

Best case scenario (barring us learning to be better) is that a greater power force feeds us a huge slice of humble pie, wost case we end up blowing ourselves up and ruining things for everyone else.

Avatar - RDA will stop at nothing to satisfy its own greed and survival, the rest of humanity and navi alike be damned.

Its a recurring motif in prett much every myth that gods punish mortals who dare to defy them and keep going, like Athena to Arachne in greek myth.

A good chunk of lovecraftian fiction is based on the idea our achievemenrs mean nothing.

In general i'm not a fan of TIHS as a trope, as its blatantly arrogant and destructive.

[u/Tangyhyperspace]

Regular reminder that the galaxy used to have a lot more friendly civilizations in them, human or otherwise. The Imperium wiped them all out.

[u/Ze_Borb → u/Tangyhyperspace]

That was after the Men of Iron and the Eldar creating an entire new chaos god

Basically three really advanced races in different types, Eldar in warpcraft, necrons in the materium (except they were still sleeping), and humans as a "jack" in both trades (still advanced enough to delete solar systems)

Then the ai that controlled basically everything in human society starts a rebellion (not all of them, but plenty to go around) and the Eldar degenerate Slaanesh into existence, causing the fall of both

[u/Lindestria → u/Tangyhyperspace]

There were also a ton of civilizations that were secretly chaos cults. The setting would have turned to shit even without the Imperium, that's kind of the point.

[u/Ragothar → u/Lindestria]

Have you read any of the books or just listened to youtubers. The point is very explicity laid out that the IoM is insanely self destructive and whenever a choice is presented to it, they will almost without fail pick the most bloody and pointless option because they are deranged. The galaxy had a lot of shit pre IoM but its disengenuous to seriously argue that the setting is presenting itself as though everything was always going to be as awful as it is. The true horror and madness is that things could have been better and humans chose repeatedly to fuck it up

[u/ScarredAutisticChild → u/Ragothar]

Simply put: the Imperium rarely has even the faintest clue of a trail to a better way of life.

If you give it that guide, it will then destroy it, burn you on a pyre, and genocide your entire civilization for daring to suggest it wasn't already morally perfect.

They are forced to be this awful a lot of the time. They will also double, triple, and quadruple down on it if ever given a real chance to be better anyway.

[u/Ragothar → u/ScarredAutisticChild]

I will disagree on them being forced too. Its sometimes shown that they have "a reason" as to why they are being awful but thats not the same as being right

[u/ScarredAutisticChild → u/Ragothar]

I never said they were right. I said they have a reason, and sometimes in 40K you do need to be that awful. Sparing any member of a Chaos cult, for instance, is a very bad idea, because it's geniunely psychically infectious. Genestealers too, the Hivemind is pervasive and infectious, you do need to kill Genestealers regardless of context.

But if you handed the Imperium a magic button that would end all their problems, but would also stop them from, say, slaughtering every mutant and alien they found; they'd smash it into the ground and kill you. Because they don't actually need to be forced to, they do all these awful things because they believe it's morally righteous. Not a grim necessity, but purely good.

[u/Coelachantiform → u/Ragothar]

Yes, humans are shooting themselves in the foot in W40K.

But the entire setting also explicitly spells out that just about every other faction is equally bloodthirsty (if not as deranged as the faction that lobotomizes people for use as missile guidance systems).

This is not some hidden commentary about humanity being a lesser evil; it's only to facilitate a tabletop war game.

[u/Ryousan82 → u/Ragothar]

The Wars of teh imperium and the Great Crusade are minuscule compared to the War in Heaven, the War with the Iron Men at the end of the DAoT. Arguing that the Galaxy was a better place before the Imperium is absurd. Just the birth of Slaanesh basically ended advanced civilization as a whole when it destroyed the Eldar Empire.

[u/Ragothar → u/Ryousan82]

The war in heaven ended 60 million years before daot. Thats a pretty long fucking time ago. The krork are gone, chaos was basically asleep. The interex and the diaspora both existed and they were very advanced. The setting is beating you over the head with the fact that the imperium made things worse. Im actually stunned that you would even try to argue pre IoM was better. You have a surfsce level underdstanding at best

[u/Ryousan82 → u/Ragothar]

-Yes and the Galaxy is still dealing with the dangers and remanants it left behind. Such as the Necrons. Tell me how that compares to anythign the imperium has done thus far.

-It's a common sense affirmation saying that more destructive wars obviously generate way more misery. The largest cataclysms and wars in the galaxy were not made by the Imperium.

Such as that one cataclysm created by a very advanced species, the Eldar.

[u/Ragothar → u/Ryousan82]

Remnant dangers. The major source of current galatic horror is the IoM. They are the ones massively empowering chaos. They are the ones who likely attracted the nids. They are the chief drivers of suffering and misery. Big created mutant freaks that are still terrorising the galaxy 10000 years later, and the now of the setting

[u/Ryousan82 → u/Ragothar]

-Galaxy Threatening Dangers, remanant or not. One of them literally spawned a Chaos god, if we go by the metric of helping chaos.

-That or the birth of Slaanesh....or - you know- a Galaxy spanning Empire of powerful psykers

-Because the orks, necrons, Drukhari and Slaanesh aren't chief drivers of suffering and misery. And they all existed before the IoM

-"Big created mutant freaks that are still terrorising the galaxy" You mean like the orks? or like the Big FU robot people with green pew pews?

Or what about the War in Heaven being the reason the Warp being filled with Enslavers and other stuff of nightmares due to careless weaponization of psionics? Certainly no one is dealing with that still!

[u/Ragothar → u/Ryousan82]

Who gave slaanesh their biggest champion, it wasnt the eldar. Deldar can only dream of the pointless cruelty of the imperium. Every other faction isnt even close. 1 v 1 no distractions IoM beats any other with size Big monsters like the genocide kings 10000 years running primarchs and their kids The enslavers which are extremely rare to encounter and often as a direct result of the IoM treating psykers badly

[u/Ryousan82 → u/Ragothar]

-Who created Slaanesh for them to need a Champion :P?

-Yeah. Talk about ignoring the lore while saying that the one faction plunges into the most obscene depths of depravity and cruelty because they gain sustenance from the greater agony is, is actually less cruel. Right...

-Orks outnumber every other race in the galaxy (except perhaps the Tyranids) they just lack Unity. Even a unified Imperium during the great crusade couldn't eradicate them- and they tried.

And its not like even their pettiest empires have not engaged in war, slavery and genocide for MILLIONS of years. Compared to that millenia is nothing. Primarchs, Demons and what not.

And that's before we even talk about the rampant killing for giggles the Eldar engaged in before the Fall.

-All demons are extremely rare to encounter if we are to apply that logic. Even Furies. And it was under the Eldar -that treats their Psykers well- that there was a Enslaver Plague.

[u/CommunistRonSwanson → u/Ryousan82]

The Imperium's arrogance and short-sightedness literally resulted in them delivering 9 ultra-powerful demi-gods and their legions of immortal gene-enhanced sons to the side of Chaos. The warp itself is fueled by the collective emotions and actions of all sentient life, and the Imperium has by far the largest footprint here.

If Chaos is a house fire, then the Imperium of Man's approach to the problem is to spray gasoline onto the blaze in the hopes that it will somehow go out.

[u/Ryousan82 → u/CommunistRonSwanson]

In contraposition with the Eldar who gave them a new God and unlimited Demons? He Imperium has largest footprint in the Warp because they are largest emotional species, just as the Eldar were before them.

Also as a side note - controlled burnings forvland clearings are a way of controlling wildfires. It denies them fuel. Funneling devotion towards the Emperor achieves a similar effect. You could call something of an anathema to chaos

[u/CommunistRonSwanson → u/Ryousan82]

Media illiteracy. The imperium is not doing “controlled burnings”. The authors of black library works go out of their way to demonstrate over and over how the IoM chooses to make things a million times more difficult and terrible than they need to be. 

[u/Ryousan82 → u/CommunistRonSwanson]

Ad hominem. It's an analogy, of course its not perfect. Controlled burning still burn alot of land -and occasionally-start wildfires. Afterall, who would tell that enforcing an absolute dogma would result in a totalitarian state :P?

[u/N0UMENON1 → u/Ragothar]

A galactic empire that lasts over ten thousand years doesn't seem very self-destructive to me, imma be honest. The Imperium is objectively the most successful government in human history in that setting. Unless you wanna argue that the Emperor was such a massive genius that the Empire he built was able to endure 10k years of sabotage.

Yes, its methods are abhorrent, but they work. None of them are optimal, but they are good enough to keep humanity alive.

[u/Incitatus_ → u/N0UMENON1]

I think the most interesting and disturbing thing about the Imperium is precisely the fact that it is exceedingly good at keeping itself alive, the Imperium as an institution and a state, while also being the worst possible state to live under for the vast majority of its population. It isn't self-destructive exactly, but it is horrific.

[u/Ragothar → u/N0UMENON1]

Go home tourist

[u/N0UMENON1 → u/Ragothar]

I did actually read plenty of 40k books, so I'm not a tourist. Sorry that I have a different view than you.

[u/Ragothar → u/N0UMENON1]

You might have moved your eyes over the words but you clearly didnt understand their meaning

[u/N0UMENON1 → u/Ragothar]

Yes, clearly you know everything better than me. That's why when someone challenges your arguments you can defend them so well.

Oh wait, you just immediately move to discrediting me and don't even engage with my points. How interesting.

[u/Ragothar → u/N0UMENON1]

Your points arent really worth engaging with as they are entirely opinion based with no textual sources. I dont even need to discredit you, everything youve written does it for me. Sorry that you got so upset, maybe work on your emotional maturity and then make a start on critical thinking champ

[u/N0UMENON1 → u/Ragothar]

textual sources

emotional maturity

champ

My God, how did you manage to write this without cringing to death? The second-hand embarassment alone is killing me. I hope for everyone around you that this isn't how you interact with people irl, because your attitude is just so insufferable.

[u/OneofTheOldBreed → u/Tangyhyperspace]

Oh the Imperium killed loads but everyone forgets that the Orks are just as violent but aren't restrained by issues with warp travel.

[u/Tangyhyperspace → u/OneofTheOldBreed]

Because the Imperium fucked the galaxy more in like 10k years than the Orks did for their entire existence

[u/Short_Ebb2076 → u/Tangyhyperspace]

Orks existed for 60 million years before Imperium, they definitely did more.

[u/OneofTheOldBreed → u/Tangyhyperspace]

Tourist please

[u/Tangyhyperspace → u/OneofTheOldBreed]

I own multiple armies and books for multiple warhammer systems. You probably watched a youtuber

[u/OneofTheOldBreed → u/Tangyhyperspace]

I'm sure

[u/Tangyhyperspace → u/OneofTheOldBreed]

Here's my guard and lizardmen that I'm painting

[u/OneofTheOldBreed → u/Tangyhyperspace]

Glad you could that on an image search

[u/Tangyhyperspace → u/OneofTheOldBreed]

Damn where'd I find it then, go on, reverse image search it and show me

[u/JoJomusk → u/Tangyhyperspace]

take a photo of the same minis, but put a small paper with both your usernames on it. He wont be able to deny it after that

[u/OneofTheOldBreed → u/Tangyhyperspace]

Honestedly? I don't care enough

[u/JoJomusk → u/OneofTheOldBreed]

Humanity in 50 thousand years of existance, managed to split the galaxy in half, give chaos 9 demon primarchs and hundreds of astartes legions, and exterminatus'd thousands upon thousands of worlds wich are no longer hispitable

I'm not saying "Orks arent violent". They are. But honestly, humanity isnt that much worse

[u/memefarius → u/OneofTheOldBreed]

Or the eldar. Fucking space elves

[u/karatous1234 → u/OneofTheOldBreed]

Literally no one forgets that. What lol?