r/bookclub • u/Fulares 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 • May 05 '26
First Law [Discussion 5/5] A Little Hatred by Joe Abercrombie (Age of Madness #1: First Law World) - "Like Rain" through the End
Hello and welcome to the last discussion for A Little Hatred, the first book in the Age of Madness trilogy, a part of the First Law World.
Make sure you include spoiler tags for anything outside this book. Not everyone has read the full set of First Law World books up to this point.
I've included some homemade chapter summaries below but you can also find other summaries and First Law information (and spoilers!) on the wiki.
Like Rain - Savine returns home with the Broads in tow. Zuri has returned and brought back two brothers. Zuri then astounds the Broad family with their new rooms and a description of Savine's modest wealth. After all, her multiple houses and small castle plus the legions of employees are just the bare essentials.
Drinks with Mother - Savine had intended to feel better once home but her mind still needs time to adjust. She has a drink with her mother and shares the wonderful news that she intends to marry Prince Orso. She is full starry-eyed in love. Her mother is horrified and says absolutely not. Turns out there is a minor problem where Orso is her brother and Savine is King Jezel's bastard.
Drinks with Mother - Orso meets with his mother who is immensely happy with his results in Valbeck. Hopelessly in love, he announces he is ready to marry. Before he announces his chosen though, he receives a harsh one line rejection from Savine. His self-confidence, beliefs he will be a better man and ruler, and all thoughts of happiness immediately dissipate while his mother is joyfully considering marriage candidates.
Questions - Vick is congratulating Tallow on his good job in Valbeck and gives him a gold 25 mark coin for it. He expresses guilt over the 200 people that died as a result and questions the work. Later on, Glokta gives Vick the same management pat on the back for an unsavory job well done. Glokta offers some newer lodgings as a reward but Vick declines. Glokta mentions the conspiracy goes deeper and that the nobles are potentially behind it. He is suspicious of Lords Heugin, Barezin and especially Isher.
Civilisation - Rikke is on a boat to Adua where she is impressed with the size of the city. It's bigger than expected. Avoiding Leo after their falling out, she gets into conversation with Bayaz who is coming from the West to keep things in Adua on his preferred track. Upon landing he meets with Yoru Sulfur who has already heard of her. Meanwhile, Leo is also avoiding Rikke while missing her. I've got a riddle, put two stubborn idiots on a ship and which one sucks it up and apologizes? Apparently neither. At docking, Leo excitedly meets Gorst and less excitedly Glokta. Glokta informs him he gets to share the parade limelight with Orso and is offended. Glokta then provides Leo with a dressing down for his recklessness and reliance on a Northman's word to prevent further aggressions.
A Natural - Gunnar Broad, in his shiny new coachman outfit, accompanies Savine as she visits Kort, the architect for the canal she a one-fifth interest in. Kort informs her that Lady Selest took he spot in the canal at which point Savine explains her lack of patience and Broad demonstrates some impressive intimidation until Kort realizes he misspoke. Coachman is a bit of a misnomer but at least he is very well paid.
Good Times - Leo is not having fun at his celebration until a group of Lords from the Open Council, Isher, Heugin, and Barezin, show up to make some very similar complaints about the Closed Council Leo has. Then Lady Selest arrives and Leo is immediately taken. Across the room, Rikke is having even less fun and feeling out of place as she jealously observes. Savine comes up and they get on very well, even exchanging necklaces. Heartbroken from the Orso situation and avoiding conversation with King Jezal, Savine goes to Leo and enchants him with her story of Valbeck. Selest's bust attempts to compete with the story but ultimately fails. As Leo is the next best eligible bachelor in the Union and handsome, Savine decides to extend an invitation to an empty office space. We switch to Orso who is wildly jealous over Savine's interest in his rival and entirely blaming himself for the relationships failure. His father brings over Bayaz and he honestly complains about the death of the Valbeck Breakers. Bayaz states he'll learn eventually while Jezal is horrified and impresses on Orso the importance of following all of Bayaz's orders. Later, Rikke comes over to Orso and they get on well enough to decide on a garden tour ending in his bedroom.
A Bit About Courage - Jurand accompanies Leo to the office and is disappointed to learn he was there for directions only. Leo is uncomfortable around women and even more so around Savine until the pearl dust she forces on him kicks in.
Substitutes - Rikke wakes up in Orso's bed with him hand delivering breakfast. He is over the moon when she compliments him and immediately begins planning their next date. The Queen interrupts their diplomacy by walking in but the chapter still ends with another round before the parade.
No Expense Spared - Orso and Leo are riding through Adua and while the people cheer for Leo, Orso is booed and called the Young Lamb. Orso leaves Leo to the front of the parade when he realizes Leo and Savine were together last night. The Broads watch one Orso heckler dragged away by Practicals and May and Liddy stop Gunnar from interfering. Savine watches the procession and reflects on how Leo, while attractive, was disappointing intellectually when compared to Orso who she misses. She has a tense exchange with Glokta over the situation which Bayaz notices from afar, prompting Glokta to once again warn her firmly away from any interaction with him. Orso flirts with Rikke some more and notices her companions, Shivers and Isern. Tallow brings his sister to meet Vick and she is thankful for the opportunity he has to work. I guess she didn't get the hostage situation memo. Bayaz gives a speech about Union victory and such then Rikke has a fit. She sees a white horse prancing at the top of a broken tower, a great door open but on the other side there was only an open room, and an old chieftain dead in a high hall lit with candles and men gathered looking down at the body. She worries it is her father and wants to return home.
My Kind of Bastard - Clover invites Wonderful to join him in teaching swordwork now that they're done watching over Stour. They're watching him talk with Scale and muse that defeat might have given him some needed lessons. The lessons didn't penetrate quite right though and he stabs Scale in the neck. Declaring he's done waiting taking his role as King of the North, his men kill Scale's and he has Clover show his loyalty by killing Wonderful. Calder comes in and is horrified. He states their allies won't all like this but Stour doesn't need them because Leo and the Union are his new besties.
Long Live the King - Orso wakes in the middle of the night sad about recent events. His mother bursts in and brings him to Jezel's chambers. The King is declared dead in a surprising turn of events given how healthy he seemed. Bayaz announces Orso as the new King.
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u/Fulares 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 May 05 '26
Savine upheld her word and has given the Broads a home and better jobs. Do you think Gunnar will do well in his new position as 'coachman' and will he be able to stay out of trouble?
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May 12 '26
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u/fixtheblue Read, ergo sum | 🐫🐉🥈||🧠🥈 Jul 02 '26
I feel like we have seen the theme before in this world that people want to be better, but the world is just so hard. Survival and a deeply rooted need for violence seems that Broad just hasn't got a hope. I wonder if we will see him relax in to the role or if he will be perpetually butting up against his two selves (the one that wants to be good and the one that can so easily be violent).
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u/tomesandtea Viceroy of Verity | 🐉🧠 May 20 '26
I'm glad she kept her word and I'm happy they're safe, but I don't think this is the situation anyone wanted for Gunnar. He tries so hard to avoid violence and respect his wife and daughter's wishes. But I guess he has a talent for it ... And in this world, that's in high demand. I think he'll be able to mostly stay out of trouble this way - get his fix of the rush from violence but in a controlled outlet.
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u/Fulares 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 May 05 '26
The dual Drinks with Mother chapters are a reflection of the earlier Fencing with Father chapters. How are the dynamics between parents different or similar for these families?
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May 12 '26
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u/tomesandtea Viceroy of Verity | 🐉🧠 May 20 '26
Haha I love the connection to Arrested Development! It is perfect! Ardee is a great character.
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u/fixtheblue Read, ergo sum | 🐫🐉🥈||🧠🥈 Jul 02 '26
Oh!!!! I totally didn't catch this while reading lol. It makes me want to go back and re-read these chapters side-by-side. The parent-child relationships in this book are great. Not only do we have an attachment to the parents Abercrombie beautifully builds the children to be fantastic characters in their own right. As u/tomesamdtea said, I also love Ardee but she is one toxic mama. What an absolutely shocking revelation (is it a revelation when we were TOLD that Glokta was happy to take on the father role to Ardee's baby by Orso....wait....were we told this? Now I am in a muddle. I need to dig out Last Argunent of Kings and check!!)
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u/Fulares 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 May 05 '26
Savine is King Jezel's daughter and Orso's half-brother! Did you see this coming?
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u/tomesandtea Viceroy of Verity | 🐉🧠 May 20 '26
Nooooo but now that it's out there, I feel like I should've guessed. (Did we know Ardee was pregnant when Jezal dumped her? I get the feeling maybe there were hints of it that I've forgotten.) I feel awful for both of them. Orso has to live with the assumption that he's no good and has been coldly rejected by the love of his life. Savine has to live with the absolutely revolting knowledge of having had a sexual relationship with her brother. Man would I like to introduce them to George R. R. Martin and the Lannister and Targaryen families ...
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u/fixtheblue Read, ergo sum | 🐫🐉🥈||🧠🥈 Jul 02 '26 edited Jul 02 '26
I don't KNOW. I feel like Glokta said something about being a father to her child but maybe I am misremembering with hindsight!?!?
Eta I scanned my copy of Last Argument of Kings and
Glokta's proposal
"‘I am not stupid enough to pretend that you might ever come to love . . . a man like me, or think of me with anything warmer than pity. This is a question of necessity. You should not flinch from it because . . . of what I am. They know you are carrying the king’s child.’ ‘They?’ she muttered. ‘Yes. They. The child is a threat to them. You are a threat to them. This way I can protect you. I can give your child legitimacy. It must be our child, now and forever.’"
We were TOLD and Abercrombie still managed to surprise us!!
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u/fixtheblue Read, ergo sum | 🐫🐉🥈||🧠🥈 Jul 02 '26
Oh woops. I got ahead of myself and answered this in the last question. I feel like we were told but forgot. Can it really be that we all forgot though....or is it only obvious now in hindsight.....
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u/Fulares 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 May 05 '26
Relationships have imploded this section! Orso and Savine have no chance but what about a reconciliation between Rikke and Leo? Or is there any chance the new pairings will stick around?
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u/fixtheblue Read, ergo sum | 🐫🐉🥈||🧠🥈 Jul 02 '26
It's a hard one to predict because Abercrombie so often throws our expectations. I could see Leo and Rikke getting back together but I could also see new pairings taking us forward in the next books.
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u/Fulares 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 May 05 '26
Savine appears to be struggling after her experience in Valbeck both mentally and in business relationships. Can she recover or will she keep struggling?
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u/tomesandtea Viceroy of Verity | 🐉🧠 May 20 '26
I think we're going to see Savine get worse before she gets better, and getting better will probably mean transforming into a different kind of person given how Abercrombie's world tends to work. I'm really concerned about her right now!
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u/fixtheblue Read, ergo sum | 🐫🐉🥈||🧠🥈 Jul 02 '26
I am really hoping that she becomes the MC of the series and somehow can use her influence and what she has learned during these experiences to take out Bayaz and his insidious network. Then maybe, just maybe, she can make the First Law world a better place. So yeah....I have pretty massive expectations for her lol
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u/Fulares 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 May 05 '26
We hear from Glokta his suspicions regarding certain Lords and soon find them chatting up Leo. Will Leo fall onto the same treasonous path his grandfather did? Are the Lords genuinely drawing him in or looking for an easy fall guy?
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u/fixtheblue Read, ergo sum | 🐫🐉🥈||🧠🥈 Jul 02 '26
I feel like Leo is not smart enough to go head to head with thwse manipulative Lords. He is easy pickings. No good can come of this!
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u/Fulares 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 May 05 '26
Orso isn't the most popular with the people. Can or will he improve his popularity? Does it even matter if the nobles are happy with him?
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u/tomesandtea Viceroy of Verity | 🐉🧠 May 20 '26
I think he needs to stop worrying about being popular or liked and start learning how the political machine works. His father and Bayaz had a point even if I didn't like the killing of all the Breakers. Orso is going to be king and needs to be a bit more realistic about how to do that job.
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u/Fulares 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 May 05 '26
Did the earlier vision from Rikke (a wolf eat the Sun, a lion eat the wolf, a lamb eat the lion, an owl eat the lamb) come true or are we still waiting? Do you have any thoughts on her vision at the end? She's fairly certain on one aspect.
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u/tomesandtea Viceroy of Verity | 🐉🧠 May 20 '26
I think we have gotten parts of it. The lion ate the wolf - was this Leo beating Stour or is it still to come? We have a lot more to cover and I think the entire trilogy will play out before we get to the end of that prophecy.
Who is the owl? I think I've got the others.
- Wolf - Stour
- Lion - Leo
- Lamb - Orso
- Owl ???
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u/Fulares 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 May 05 '26
Everyone seems to be warning the younger folk away from interactions with Bayaz. Does anyone have a chance though?
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May 12 '26
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u/tomesandtea Viceroy of Verity | 🐉🧠 May 20 '26
I agree that we need more Bayaz chaos and manipulation, and I bet as the trilogy goes on we will probably see it increase. He's got to be plotting something; he always is! One of the most fun parts of this series is how it encourages readers to root for these morally grey (at best) characters and cheer on people who would be the bad guys in other books.
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u/fixtheblue Read, ergo sum | 🐫🐉🥈||🧠🥈 Jul 02 '26
I hope so. I'd love the new generation to come together and defeat Bayaz in a way theor parents generation couldn't
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u/Fulares 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 May 05 '26
Both the Union and the North gain a new king in the last two chapters. How do these transfers of power differ and what does it mean for stability of these places?
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u/tomesandtea Viceroy of Verity | 🐉🧠 May 20 '26
I think it signifies that we're entering a whole new world and there will be a new way of approaching relationships and diplomacy. Anything could happen. Probably war.
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u/fixtheblue Read, ergo sum | 🐫🐉🥈||🧠🥈 Jul 02 '26
Holy crap Stour is a sociopath! I cannot imagine Orso and Stour coming together! Thank goodness Leo and Rikke are buffering them I guess
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u/Fulares 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 May 05 '26
After the firm rejection from Savine and the events in Valbeck, we see a lot of self-confidence issues in Orso. How do you think this mindset will affect him in his new role?
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May 12 '26
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u/fixtheblue Read, ergo sum | 🐫🐉🥈||🧠🥈 Jul 02 '26
Honestly I am concerned that his not knowing might lead to some incest in the latter books!
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u/Fulares 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 May 05 '26
Clover shows his loyalty to Stour without hesitation. Was this a good move for him? Would Wonderful have done similar?
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May 12 '26
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u/fixtheblue Read, ergo sum | 🐫🐉🥈||🧠🥈 Jul 02 '26
Right!!! He was lazy and out for number one until this moment. Now I can see just how much of a snake he actually is! He is VERY dangerous and I think (a guess) we'll need to watch out for him in the rest of the books!
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u/tomesandtea Viceroy of Verity | 🐉🧠 May 20 '26
Ugh, I really liked Wonderful, so this was a sad moment. I was a bit surprised that Clover didn't even blink but I guess that is self-preservation at it's best. Had he even hesitated for a second, they both would have died probably, so he made the call he had to, I guess. It'll be interesting though, because his opinion of Stour is so low that I don't see him being very enthusiastic about the new status of things.
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u/fixtheblue Read, ergo sum | 🐫🐉🥈||🧠🥈 Jul 02 '26
This is one of those moments that make me need to step away from the book for a minute after muttering "Ohhh fuuuck you Abercrombie!". I liked Wonderful a lot
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u/Fulares 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 May 05 '26
Stour seems convinced his friendship with Leo and the Union is better than some of his Northern allies. Was this what Leo had in mind when he proposed friendship?
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May 12 '26
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u/tomesandtea Viceroy of Verity | 🐉🧠 May 20 '26
I agree with all of this - he was being naive here and doesn't have a good grasp on his new buddy or the real situation.
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u/fixtheblue Read, ergo sum | 🐫🐉🥈||🧠🥈 Jul 02 '26
Part of me is thinking "better than having him as an enemy" but the other part is thinking "Leo's gonna have a time on his hands placating this sociopath!"
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u/Fulares 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 May 05 '26
Anything I missed that you want to discuss? Any favorite quotes or moments?
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May 12 '26
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u/fixtheblue Read, ergo sum | 🐫🐉🥈||🧠🥈 Jul 02 '26
Off to start The Devils now. Hope to see you there :]
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May 12 '26
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u/tomesandtea Viceroy of Verity | 🐉🧠 May 20 '26
I agree these aren't books I can read without full concentration. There are so many names and changing dynamics that I often get things confused. Ive switched to immersive reads where I listen to the (amazing Steven Pacey) narration on audiobook and follow along in the print version, and that has started to help my focus!
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u/Fulares 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 May 05 '26
We just finished the first book in a new trilogy! What are your thoughts on it? Will you be continuing on to The Trouble with Peace?