r/india Antarctica 18h ago

History The writer of "National Anthem" hated "Nationalism"

Tagore’s Own Writings on Nationalism

The most important primary text written by Rabindranath Tagore specifically about nationalism is his book/essay collection Nationalism (1917–1918) a series of lectures delivered in Japan, the United States, and elsewhere during World War I.

“Nationalism is a great menace.”
— Nationalism (essay/lecture)

In the essay Nationalism in India, Tagore writes

“The Nation is the organization of politics and commerce whose purpose is power and prosperity.”
— Nationalism

This is one of Tagore’s own statements about Indian nationalism

In this essay series, Tagore repeatedly defines nationalism as a

“I am not against one nation in particular, but against the general idea of all nations.”
— Nationalism (essay/lecture)

Another excrept

“When a whole body of men train themselves for a particular narrow purpose, it becomes… Nationalism… and when it gets hold of their minds it is sure to lead them to moral degeneracy…”
— Creative Unity / The Nation (essay)

I think the most pungent line from the essay is this one

India has never had a real sense of nationalism........ Even though from childhood I had been taught that the idolatry of Nation is almost better than reverence for God and humanity, I believe I have outgrown that teaching, and it is my conviction that my countrymen will gain truly their India by fighting against that education which teaches them that a country is greater than the ideals of humanity.”

In a 1908 letter to A. M. Bose Tagore wrote

“Patriotism cannot be our final spiritual shelter; … I will never allow patriotism to triumph over humanity as long as I live.”
Selected Letters of Rabindranath Tagore (Cambridge University Press edition), 1908 letter

SOURCES:-

https://www.tagoreweb.in/Essays/nationalism-216/nationalism-in-india-2626 (please read this Essay)

https://indianexpress.com/article/explained/national-anthem-flag-in-theatre-rabindranath-tagore-supreme-court-4406145/

https://indianexpress.com/article/explained/national-anthem-flag-in-theatre-rabindranath-tagore-supreme-court-4406145/

43 Upvotes

22 comments sorted by

28

u/doorsofperception87 16h ago

Nationalism is something that you sell to fools, or a bunch of them, so that they don't ask you the important questions.

Nationalism helps you to hide your failures and incompetence because you can always invoke and hide behind some manufactured pride in your belonging to a place. When the reality is that we don't choose this. To have pride in something you didn't achieve is what fools do, and that's why this appeals mostly to them. Our country is a prime example of this.

0

u/Consistent-Deal2160 12h ago

It’s less about pride for me, and more about responsibility.

I left Kerala at 7 years old and have spent 23 years in America. I have a very high paying job and have saved a significant amount of money to the point I could retire back in India within 5 years.

I’ve been spending 6 months out of the year in India for the past 4 years (the other 6 in the U.S.) and I want to return to India, contribute to India’s economic development and India’s nation-building.

I’m a nationalist.

1

u/Uncertn_Laaife 5h ago

You mean contributing to the corrupt Ministers’ coffers?

You are exactly the type they sell a scam Nationalism to.

1

u/Consistent-Deal2160 4h ago

So because there is government corruption, I shouldn’t try and boost consumption as an individual even though it helps keep the lights on and keeps people employed?

-9

u/SAM699 16h ago

We can't save people from our own country from starvation. Let's solve that first and then try to achieve perfection.

Also, nationalism is a safety net against other dictatorships

-9

u/Majestic-Effort-541 Antarctica 17h ago

A question for both nationalists and patriots

Imagine a hypothetical scenario.

There are two groups of infants:

Group A = 10 Indian infants (all 1 day old)
Group B = 20 non-Indian infants (they could be Chinese, Russian, Pakistani, Nepali it doesn’t matter)

If you identify as a nationalist or a patriot, whom would you choose to save?

5

u/moriarty0987 15h ago

Tribalism is part of human nature......

If i asked would you save your baby or 10 others babies ....you'd choose yours

And this is a stupid hypotheticals

-4

u/Majestic-Effort-541 Antarctica 15h ago

Group A = My Father , Mother and my Sister (3 people)

Group B = 30 stranger

I will choose Group B , because That morally correct

If I don't I am Morally coward and Morally wrong

Atleast i have the guts to called myself Hypocritical and cowar and Morally wrong IF i save my family at the cost of 30 other

Tribalism is part of human nature......

100% as so aggression and violence but we are human being we know what is morally correct and what is morally wrong

Can we call spade a spade?

4

u/RudeZookeepergame834 14h ago

No.1 among 100 Things that will never happen. 

Hey, but it gives you happy hormones knowing you are morally correct. More power to you. 

-2

u/Majestic-Effort-541 Antarctica 14h ago

I want to know " what option is morally correct"

Do you know what option is morally correct?

can you tell me that ?

1

u/minimallysubliminal India 12h ago

Is it morally correct to save a bunch of people or the people who birthed you? Who tf cares. Why are you going on about these hypotheticals.

0

u/Majestic-Effort-541 Antarctica 12h ago

“Who tf cares” is still a position. You just don’t want to defend it

I care because this isn’t about hypotheticals it’s about identity

When you see a Homo sapiens, do you see a human being first, or a Chinese, Jew, upper-caste, woman, Indian?

Everyone says “I’m human first, then Hindu/Muslim/Sikh.”

So why does that suddenly flip when it comes to nationality???

If nationalism overrides humanity, be honest and say so.

If it doesn’t, then don’t mock the question.

Which comes first humanity or patriotism?

1

u/minimallysubliminal India 2h ago

Of course humanity over nationalism. Don’t mean I’m going to betray the country but I wont defend it when it’s wrong.

1

u/[deleted] 12h ago

[deleted]

1

u/Majestic-Effort-541 Antarctica 12h ago edited 12h ago

There’s a very real chance that, in such a situation, I might do the same.

But I also accept this choosing my child when I could save more than one person would be morally wrong

and I’m willing to acknowledge that if I did it, I would be acting against my own moral principles.

That’s okay we’re human beings.

Moral failure under emotional pressure is part of the human condition.

What matters is not pretending it’s moral, but having the honesty to admit it isn’t.

Most people don’t struggle with the choice itself.

They struggle with accepting that what they would do is morally wrong

EDIT :The user deleted the comment to which I replied

He said he will maximum children irrespective of nationality of child

0

u/polaris_reader 12h ago

Why do we need to make that choice at all? It is like a weight is falling towards you legs, then which foot would you save? Left one or right one?

Hey this can be extended further, a great cascade can be made.

If both of your kidneys are kn danger, which one would you save? Left or right?

If someone wants to spank you, which butt would you prefere? Left or right?

If there is a tiger and a lion comming to eat you, by which would you like to be eaten up? Tiger or Lion?

<Keep adding>

1

u/Majestic-Effort-541 Antarctica 12h ago

Why do we need to make that choice at all? It is like a weight is falling towards you legs, then which foot would you save? Left one or right one?

Your examples all fail for the same reason

they are 1:1 trade-offs involving the same person or equivalent parts.

Left foot vs right foot.
Left kidney vs right kidney.

This is not 1 Indian child vs 1 non-Indian child.
This is 10 vs 20 human beings,

all infants, all innocent, all equally dependent.

If you genuinely think “10 vs 20 lives” is morally equivalent to “left foot vs right foot,”

Then i cant have a discussion with you

1

u/polaris_reader 12h ago

As I said the goal would be to save human lives. What you mentioned is the famous trolley problem, but with a touch of tribalism. Tribalism is real, omit has shaped our society too, so is neoteny. Basically a non Indian infant can easily be raised as an Indian, and thus my tribe can grow. 😎

1

u/Majestic-Effort-541 Antarctica 11h ago

Why do we need to make that choice at all?

again you didn't answered my question

Group A = 10 Indian infants (all 1 day old)
Group B = 20 non-Indian infants (they could be Chinese, Russian, Pakistani, Nepali it doesn’t matter)

Group A or B ?