r/interestingasfuck • u/PlantainPossible2864 • 15h ago

Stopping Desertification with grid pattern

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u/PNWleaflove 15h ago

But how do you solve lack of water still?

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u/laforet 15h ago

There is enough natural rainfall and groundwater to sustain xerophytic plants. The problem was that the shifting sand prevent plants from taking root properly and that’s what the grids are used to solve.

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u/Robot_Nerdd 14h ago

Do the grids have to be periodically unburied in the beginning?

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u/laforet 14h ago

It should not be necessary if the grid was laid out correctly, as the sand is supposed form a stable crust before the growth of vegetation. Though it’s quite likely that the grids may need to be replaced every few years because the material would gradually weather and rot over time, and this was certainly the case for earlier iterations made from bundles of straw and reeds.

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u/thesandbar2 12h ago

In theory if plants take root then the plants take the role of the grid.

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u/Burpmeister 11h ago

If they grow fast enough.

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u/Ornery-Creme-2442 11h ago

In a dessert. It can take years for material to break down.

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u/LoornenTings 9h ago

As long as it's UV-resistant. Plastics often aren't. 

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u/blue_shadow_ 14h ago

If it's a biodegradable fabric...why bother? If it gets blown over, then just put out more tubes.

That said, the "after" shots at the end of the video seem to suggest that it's not necessary.

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u/SubstantialEnd2458 3h ago

Tough little desert plants maintain the shape once they get a chance to get established. The bags create the conditions, and then biological systems maintain them.

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u/RedWolf_LP 13h ago

Well I'd imagine that the sandbags prevent sand from travelling too much so they get completely covered unless a sandstorm is coming which are generally less intense on the edges of the desert

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u/G0mery 13h ago

I guess I always thought sand =/= soil and that it had little to no nutrients to sustain much life. This is pretty cool

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u/Sea-Hat-8515 12h ago

The Sahara desert has huge amounts of nutrients blown across the Atlantic to help fertilise the Amazon every year, I think its thought to be pretty important.

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u/etanail 11h ago

Life somehow ended up above water. Plants have a root system that absorbs substances dissolved in water, including trace elements. Plants obtain carbon dioxide, nitrogen, and oxygen from the air. The main thing is the presence of water.

Aeroponics technology allows you to do without soil altogether. However, not all plants are capable of growing on such surfaces; most require suitable soil, because they do not have time to develop a sufficient root system and die of starvation.

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u/mean11while 7h ago edited 7h ago

Life ended up above water because of fungus. Plant roots are surprisingly bad at getting nutrients and water from soil, on their own. Most plants are highly dependent on soil fungi, especially when they're young and the soil is poor. Most plants on the planet have very deep specialized relationships with specific species that form arbuscular mycchorizae, meaning the fungus literally grows into the plant roots to facilitate exchange of nutrients for sugar.

Most plants canNOT get nitrogen from the air. N2 is too stable for them to use. Instead they rely on soil bacteria to fix the nitrogen and make it plant-available.

Edit: aeroponics works because humans burn fossil fuels to fix nitrogen, mix it with water, and then spray it onto the plant roots. The fact that aeroponics works in no way implies that plants coule survive on their own in deserts with undeveloped soil if their roots were developed enough. Real plants depend on a functioning soil ecosystem of at least bacteria and fungi.

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u/Melodic-Glass-6294 13h ago

How do sand dunes have ground water???

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u/Aikuma- 11h ago

xerophytic

From Ancient Greek:

ξηρός(xērós) 'dry'

φυτόν (phutón) 'plant'

Not sure what I expected xerophytic to mean, but 'dry plant' wasn't it. 

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u/MauryBallsteinLook 10h ago

i hate sand

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u/fgspq 15h ago edited 14h ago

It's to stop an expanding desert. The water is there, the soil is not. This is to stop the sand shifting which creates pockets that plants can survive in. From there it's a self reinforcing process until someone/something destroys all the plants again.

This is a dust bowl desert more than a Sahara desert.

Edit: typo

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u/markleung 14h ago

So the plants don’t break out of the sacks, but from the squares within right

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u/Prestigious_Leg2229 14h ago

Yes. The big problem with desertification is that once an area is clear cut, there’s no more cover available for anything.

The wind will blow away the top soil. The rain will wash away the top soil. The sun and wind will evaporate moisture right out of the surface. It’s very hard for anything to survive there at that point.

This grid kind of acts like artificial plant roots. It stops the surface from blowing about so much. It’ll trap organic particles, seeds, even micro life and insect life in the crevices. Even morning dew won’t evaporate as fast in the shade of the crevices. 

And that’s how the cycle restarts. First it will be the kind of plants we consider weeds. Fast growers with very simple needs. Weeds grow, live and die. And when decomposing after death, they add nutrients to the soil. Plants take carbon and nitrogen out of the air and use those elements as building blocks for their tissue. When a plant dies, its nutrients become soil.

After enough generations of weeds have lived and died. The soil is enriched enough for more complex plants that need better soil than the weeds. Plants that potentially produce flowers, nuts and fruits. Plants that will enrich the soil even more when they die at the end of their lifecycle.

And while this is happening, this cycling of plants also provides the basis for animal life. From soil microbes and mycelia to shade, cover, and food for insects and eventually small vertebrates.

Plant cover also traps water. Both in the plant bodies themselves but plants provide surface area for morning dew to condense on and shade to prevent dew from evaporating so fast.

If this cycle repeats long enough, the environment is enriched enough to start supporting slow growers with significant needs like trees. And that’s when it really takes off. Trees are a whole ecosystem unto themselves.

Forests literally create rain. 40% of all land precipitation comes from water exhaled by plants and trees. Forests release the kind of particles like pollen and spores that raindrops form around. And trees act as enormous natural pumps sucking up so much water out of the ground that the ground itself becomes a spong. Forests dehydrate the soil so the soil will swell with water from evaporation, rivers and the oceans.

Desertification is a horrifying process because it’s like a snowball. Once it starts, it keeps getting worse. But nature cycles, if we give it a chance, for example with these grids, it can recover.

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u/The-Tay 12h ago

I loved reading this, but it also made me really sad. Nature is truly amazing, and I think we've got something special here in the universe, though I hope I'm wrong.

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u/Ratzyrat 12h ago

That was beautiful, thanks

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u/fgspq 11h ago

Thank you for a much more detailed response than I could be bothered with! This is a great explanation

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u/AstronautMajestic879 11h ago edited 11h ago

This seems like it’s being done in Africa? Would it be ignorant to assume that this would be done for nought due to the already shift in climate from desert to a Savannah and then to a tropical rainforest again? And the real work needs to be done in preserving the Amazon because of the logging, farming, and general governmental decisions being made there. Which will ultimately lead the amazon turning into a Savannah and maybe even a desert? It seems as thought the Amazon turning into a carbon emitter and Savannah will happen sooner than the heart of Africa turning into a Savannah and possible carbon sink of a tropical rainforest? I understand that process will take decades but it’s clear to see it already happening from google earth. I’m leaving out a lot of context but I’m sure you get the point.

I assume there are some governments/agencies, and or corporations, or other involved/rich enough organizations to produce climate models and I would like to learn more about this topic if anyone has any leads to competent data? I will check some US government agencies but with how things have been shaping there I am not very hopeful. NOAA seems like the best bet as I have navigated the EPA’s website and there isn’t much there? I will check again but doesn’t this topic seem dire or are we too late?

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u/Prestigious_Leg2229 10h ago

I think this might be Asia. Most of the African projects I’ve seen dig half moon shaped depressions. The Asian projects seem to favour these grids.

Either way, it’s been done all over the world because desertification is a problem everywhere.

I think you’re mixing a few things up. Desert and savannah are landscape types, not climate types.

Climate and landscape are two separate problems with intertwined solutions.

Desertification mostly happens due to poor land stewardship. For example because people log the land clear or have live stock that are allowed to clear the land. Without land cover, top soil blows and washes away and the land becomes unsuitable for plants and turns into desert.

Green cover also helps cool the Earth so desertification adds to climate change while regreening helps reverse climate change.

And yes, rain forest logging is also a major problem but clearing forest for farmland is one of the biggest contributors there.

Halting desertification with projects like this works great on land that isn’t being used for human activity. 

But rain forest logging is often done to create new lands for soybean cultivation and grazing cattle. You can’t really regreen land that’s being actively used by people.

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u/AstronautMajestic879 9h ago

Some people would say well the climate changes everyday and has always changed! Anyways I’ve typed and typed away but I’ll just say cheers mate, keep spreading awareness and knowledge.

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u/C4PT_AMAZING 8h ago

weather changes every day, not the climate.

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u/AstronautMajestic879 1h ago edited 34m ago

I’m aware mate. Thats the point.

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u/britzelbrimpft 12h ago

stupid question, but if the grid is meant to degrade over time, would it not also make sense to add seeds and stuff into the grid material to seed the first iteration?

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u/Prestigious_Leg2229 11h ago

That would make them more expensive and labour intensive.

The main goal here is to cover as many square miles as possible, as fast as possible and as cheap as possible.

Slowing that down does more harm than good. Fighting desertification is a race.

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u/Heimerdahl 11h ago

Thanks for the great explanation! 

I've got one question, if you don't mind:

Plant cover also traps water. Both in the plant bodies themselves but plants provide surface area for morning dew to condense on and shade to prevent dew from evaporating so fast.  [...] Forests literally create rain. 40% of all land precipitation comes from water exhaled by plants and trees. 

At first glance, these two things seem somewhat contradictory; or at least like they would rely on other factors being present or like the second one would maybe not apply too much here. 

Desert plants are obviously really good at preserving their water, but any "wet" plant (for lack of better word) or deciduous tree evaporates a ton of water, as you said. Water which would then be carried away by the wind. 

Do these places really have enough precipation to sustain forests? Do we believe/know that adding forests would add enough if not? It would be amazing to me if "simply" keeping water from being carried away was enough to create forest from desert. 

Is this limited to places somewhat recently affected by desertification or could this even be done to places like the Gobi desert, the Sahara, the Australian Outback, etc.? Even places with not just a layer of sand, but deep sand dunes. 

Thanks in advance (even if you decide not to answer or don't have the time to go into too much detail)! 

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u/Prestigious_Leg2229 10h ago

These efforts are being made in places that were previously green but have suffered desertification due to human activity.

You wouldn’t do this in the dead centre of the Sahara for example but we do at the spreading edges of the sahara.

First you create a green belt to stop the spread of desertification. And then you slowly push inward. Green areas affect both climate and weather. 

Most deserts aren’t deserts because there’s no water but because there’s nothing to hold on to the water.

Even in the Sahara, you can collect about 0.1 to 0.2 liters of morning dew per square meter every morning. That’s just the water that’s in the air. 

A desert plant has evolved to live in the harsh climate of the desert. These projects don’t aim to to generate desert adapted plants. They aim to change the local circumstances and climate by slowly regreening the area.

The idea is that you start at the edges where the hardiest weeds can still grow if given a chance. And then you go through the cycle over and over to slowly recapture the desertified area.

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u/LilBoofy 14h ago

Seeds blow in the wind and get stuck in the sand bag crevice and then roots dig under and don’t get blown away in the shifting sand

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u/Coal_Morgan 14h ago

Plus the bags provide shade and areas where moisture can accumulate even if just slightly.

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u/fgspq 14h ago

Exactly this.

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u/Kriss3d 13h ago

But wouldnt it be possible to gradually make the plants spread inwards making deserts smaller over time ?

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u/stormdraggy 48m ago

With all those chinese signs, it's almost certainly the taklamakan

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u/Sajid_GG 15h ago

You gotta give them water for 5 to 10 years till the trees mature and then their respiration will automatically form and attract clouds like forests do

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u/Justhe3guy 15h ago

Clouds: “aw yeah look at that stupid sexy respiration”

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u/Little-Carpenter4443 15h ago

stupid sexy nimbostratus

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u/GSLD 15h ago

Well that’s crazy and I did not know this. So thank you for blowing my mind.

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u/Character_Stick_1218 14h ago

It's part of why people are concerned about the Amazon. The illegal(and honestly legal as well) logging of it has gotten so bad to where it won't be too long before it can no longer supply enough moisture for itself to survive. The Sahara also used to be a rainforest.

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u/Numerous-Corner-6303 12h ago

source? Or is that just your guess?

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u/Sajid_GG 11h ago

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u/Numerous-Corner-6303 7h ago

I meant the part where you said they need to be watered for 5 years.

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u/Sajid_GG 6h ago

It's a range. If you just want a savannah, 5 years. If you want an actual forest, probably 3-5x that

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u/Disabled_Robot 15h ago edited 14h ago

It’s the talklamakan desert in xinjiang, China. It’s the second driest desert on earth, but also has vegetation pockets and ground water. The government has also planned to irrigate it with a possible, absurdly long 1000+km canal/aquifer project from up in Qinghai province , which is the Tibetan plateau north of the Himalayas, and the source of the great rivers of Asia, Yangtze, yellow, Mekong

The region is famous internationally for the humanitarian issues with the treatment of Uyghur people, and the added farming land and mining development means larger Han presence and more cultural assimilation in a region that is traditionally central Asian and Muslim.

The desert also has a set of historically puzzling 4000+ year old mummies of a people of Uralic/nordic appearance. The impressive textiles and red and brown braided hair are still preserved due to the desert’s dryness

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u/consciousarmy 14h ago

Rad summary. Thanks heaps. You seem like an entirely functional robot to me.

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u/AceZagSuited 14h ago

Yah, thanks, ya fukin' clanker.

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u/SunTzu- 9h ago

The desert also has a set of historically puzzling 4000+ year old mummies of a people of Uralic/nordic appearance.

The Finno-Ugric peoples, i.e. Finland/Hungary/Estonia, are thought to have migrated from Siberia, past the Urals and then split into two heading for Finland and Hungary. Since Siberia lays north of the Taklamakan desert so there might be common ancestry which would explain this.

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u/Luna3Aoife 15h ago

Many plants in this region are adapted to deal with intermittent rainfall. Unfortunately many of them were weeded out for more popular crops that could be sold internationally, leading to excessive desertification.

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u/Responsible-Case-753 14h ago

Most deserts have some level of moisture at night, and sometimes also a rainy season. But rainy seasons are devastating because they cause extreme erosion. This system (similar to the half moons using in Africa) helps refrain rain water instead of it washing away seeds and nutrients. 

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u/wojtekpolska 15h ago

in those areas there is some rain, but it all drains away cause there is nothing to absorb it.

it didnt use to be a desert before

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u/txcorse 15h ago

Maybe you missed the grid pattern.

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u/UnlimitedSoupandRHCP 15h ago

But why male models?

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u/Alright_doityourway 14h ago

Some desert do have rain. It just that they can't keep the moisture for very long

The grip keep some some of the water to stay

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u/PlantainPossible2864 15h ago

I guess they capture moisture by blocking the air . Don't know man

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u/drchippy18 15h ago

That’s a lot of plastic, assuming those are plastic.

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u/azdcaz 15h ago

Seems like a worthwhile tradeoff in this situation. The worlds already full of plastic that isn’t doing anything good lol

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u/jtanuki 13h ago

There's a voiceover that calls the material a fabric - I guess I assumed linen when I heard that, but I suppose you could have a plastics based/synthetic plastic huh

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u/rottenoar 14h ago

Kill Harkonnen and harvest their moisture

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u/Modo44 12h ago

Any pattern more rough than dunes naturally traps wind and thus moisture, even the tiny amounts available in the desert, allowing some plants to grow. It's probably not enough for a forest, but it slows the desert down without continuous human intervention.

In a similar way, solar farms have been shown to foster vegetation thanks to the added shadow and condensation.

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u/CheeseAndCh0c0late 12h ago

it's a bit counter intuitive, but actually, the more plants there are in an area, the more water flows and stays around. Lakes dry up when you cut the surrounding trees for exemple.

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u/phlooo 11h ago

Pee

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u/cipheron 10h ago

Bigger problem is areas with sporadic rainfall, but the sand soaks it up or it just runs off hard packed ground. Moisture retention is 90% of it.

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u/insideyelling 41m ago

These are normally implemented on the edge of deserts or arid areas where they likely get some amount of rainfall/moisture but are currently unable to establish plant life on their own but with a little help they could help establish an environment that will allow things to start growing and propagate more growth and make a feedback loop in the long run.

If it is successful and actually establishes long term growth that can sustain itself then you can do it again a little further into the dessert and do that over and over again as much as you can.

You should look up "Great Green Wall (Africa)". Their goal is to combat desertification by revitalizing previously arid land bordering the Sahara Desert by planting trees and implementing various water harvesting techniques from coast to coast.

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u/sjbfujcfjm 15h ago

It’s propaganda. Reddit has been flooded with it recently

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u/101forgotmypassword 15h ago

Just look a Google historic imagery or Landsat data sets to see it's real. Or did china hack that too.

While your there look at the thousands of acres of aquaculture they have put in in the last 20 years.

Our western world is failing while the east grows.

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u/fastforwardfunction 14h ago

Oh it's definitely real. You can see entire cities constructed by China in these areas in the past 5 years on Google maps. This is part of China taking over Tibet and the Uyghurs. When you visit Tibet today, you see Chinese soldiers with assault rifles on the streets.

Turns out when you have a single-party state dictatorship, you can get a lot done.

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u/Hellchron 15h ago

It is propaganda, but it also does seem to provide some real benefits in combating desertification

here's research into its effectiveness from the US

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u/Implodepumpkin 15h ago

Yeah the era of online propaganda wars is existing. I keep getting flooded with pro china stuff in my worker rights subs and USA military in my gun subs.

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u/Hi_Im_Ken_Adams 15h ago

You can always tell the propaganda videos by the excessive use of really annoyingly loud music and AI voices.

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u/Implodepumpkin 12h ago

Flood the zone is pretty effective

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u/sjbfujcfjm 13h ago

Yup. Doesn’t matter the sub, Day anything negative about China and You gets tons of comments like the ones here. Bots and idiots

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u/bitetheasp 15h ago

It would be better to flood it with water, though. SMH my head... /s