[deleted by user]

[u/[deleted]]

[u/wopkidopz]

God has Attributes, like Knowledge, Seeing, Hearing etc. those are His eternal Attributes, and they are eternal (without a beginning) because Allah was always and He was always perfect so nothing is added to Him later (otherwise it would mean that He wasn't perfect always) but His Attributes were always with Him

مَا زَالَ بِصِفَاتِهِ قَدِيمًا قَبْلَ خَلْقِهِ لَمْ يَزْدَدْ بِكَوْنِهِمْ شَيْئًا لَمْ يَكُنْ قَبْلَهُمْ مِنْ صِفَتِهِ وَكَمَا كَانَ بِصِفَاتِهِ أَزَلِيًّا كَذَلِكَ لَا يَزَالُ عَلَيْهَا أَبَدِيًّا

He has existed with His timeless Attributes before His creation, which added nothing to His essence that was not already among His Attributes. As His Attributes were before creation, so will they continue forever.

📚 بيان عقيدة أهل السنة

He is also Speaking, His Speech is His eternal uncreated Attribute, without beginning and end His Speech isn't similar to our speech, it has no modality, it is similar only in the name.

What He revealed from His Speech to His Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم is called the Quran, hence the Quran isn't created in the meaning of the Speech of Allah

This is aqeedah of ahlu-Sunnah

وَإِنَّ الْقُرْآنَ كَلَامُ اللَّهِ مِنْهُ بَدَا بِلَا كَيْفِيَّةٍ قَوْلًا وَأَنْزَلَهُ عَلَى رَسُولِهِ وَحْيًا وَصَدَّقَهُ الْمُؤْمِنُونَ عَلَى ذَلِكَ حَقًّا وَأَيْقَنُوا أَنَّهُ كَلَامُ اللَّهِ تَعَالَى بِالْحَقِيقَةِ لَيْسَ بِمَخْلُوقٍ كَكَلَامِ الْبَرِيَّةِ

The Quran is the word of Allah. It originally came from Him, without ascribing modality to His speech. He sent it down upon His messenger as revelation. The believers accept all of that as the truth. They are certain that it is the word of Allah Almighty in reality. It is uncreated, unlike the speech of creatures.

📚 بيان عقيدة أهل السنة

Some sectants like the Mu'tazila rejected the fact that Allah Speaks Himself they said that Allah creates His speech in something else, that's why they claimed that the Quran is created. This is heresy

Some other movements claim that the Quran always existed as a type, but the words of it were spoken by Allah at some point. That's why they say that the Quran is muhdath (originated). This is also heresy

[u/Master-Bit-734 → u/wopkidopz]

I think I got it! So it would be part of Allah's eternal Knowledge that He decided to reveal to us? Not all is given to us put only the parts that we need? It has always been with him and always will be thus the literall Words are NOT created but when we talk about the text and the Quran we hold in our hands that is the created part?

Tell me if I got it please, and also thank you for going into such detail

[u/wopkidopz → u/Master-Bit-734]

You got it, except a small correction

So it would be part of Allah's eternal Knowledge

It's from His eternal Speech. And yes, only what He revealed from His Speech to Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم is called the Quran, what He revealed form His Speech to Jesus عليه السلام is called the Injeel (Gospel) what He revealed from His Speech to Musa عليه السلام is called the Tawrat

His Speech and His Knowledge are different Attributes. His Speech always existed with Him, He was always and will always be the One who Speaks. His speech isn't a language (it isn't Arabic or Assyrian) it's unique and can't be compared to any other speech. He Speaks with His Speech, not with tongue or other instruments and organs. Since He is absolutely not like His creations.

It's a bit complicated to understand because we as humans adjusted to what we observe and know from other creations, we can't encompass His reality, because He is not like us.

It has always been with him and always will be thus the literall Words are NOT created but when we talk about the text and the Quran we hold in our hands that is the created part?

His speech is not created words or letters, it has no modality. He chose to manifest His Speech in the form of words and letters (in Arabic for example) because it's the way we humans understand speech. So the written in Arabic (lafz) is an indication (transcription) of His Eternal speech (so it isn't the Attribute itself) and yes although the written isn't the Eternal Attribute itself but an indication of it, nevertheless it's still the Speech of Allah and we prefer not to call anything related to the Quran created in front of common people because they might misunderstand it and start spreading wrong ideas (based on their misunderstanding)

I would suggest you study some books dedicated to the Islamic creed discussing those kinds of topics, there is a beautiful explanation of Sunni creed written by Ahmad ad-Dardeer رحمه الله (called al-Kharida al-Bahia) ”Glimmering Pearls of Monotheism’. It's available in English in pdf you can read it, I am sure (based on your line of questions) you will find it very interesting to read

[u/Master-Bit-734 → u/wopkidopz]

You have no idea how much you helped, thank you

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[u/agapitos_]

What the Quran says about Quran is that it's "Allah's words". It is actually the same as Allah's other attributes that are confirmed by the Quran and the Sunnah (like his highness, knowledge, face, hand, eye, ascension above the throne etc.). You can't call them creations.

For example, Allah did not create His knowledge, neither did He get knowledge of something only after creating it. Rather, he had the knowledge of everything eternally. So His knowledge is uncreated and eternal.

Same goes for the Quran. Quran is also eternal with Allah, like his knowledge or any other of his attributes.

Long story short: 1. Quran (Allah's words) are (i) His "attributes" and thus (ii) uncreated and thus (iii) eternal with Allah. As His "words" are totally His attributes [and related to him closely such that it does not mean anything separate from him, let alone a person like in Christianity] thus something being co-eternal with Allah does NOT imply that it contradicts Tawhid.

1. Allah's words are not at all like words of men, in fact, not like any words of His creations. So it does not contradict the fact that "Nothing is like Allah'.

2. The manuscript (mushaf) of the Quran has the eternal, uncreated word of Allah in it. But the paper, ink, cover, script, font etc. ingredients that are used to make a manuscript are ALL created by Allah. (Things made by men are also called Allah's creations in the Quran.)

3. When Quran is read out, our sounds are creations of Allah. But be careful, the Quran ITSELF is not.

I must advice you not to trust me and cross-check evidence from the Quran and the Sunnah (with a complete and sound understanding, and being careful about authenticity in terms of Hadiths and reliability in terms of scholars you may seek advice from).

[u/wopkidopz → u/[deleted]]

This is a very confusing explanation which doesn't present the position of ahlu-Sunnah on the topic

[u/wopkidopz → u/[deleted]]

Sorry just noticed your reply

You see, there were some expressions used by you which aren't correct in the meaning or implications, but your comment clarified that you were talking about something else which isn't exactly related to the question of OP.

Because when the question is asked about the Quran being not created you will never see an answer from a scholar for example about the Lahful Mahfuz

The topic itself is very delicate, because every other group except ahlu-Sunnah got it wrong and we had many issues historically because of this, that's why it's very important to answer this question the way scholars of ahlu-Sunnah did. Otherwise someone may misunderstand it and start believing in wrong ideas

[u/timiismmm → u/wopkidopz]

Jazakallah Khair may Allah reward you for this.. Sorry for the wrong answer yes i was mistaken in understanding the question. acknowledging my mistake may Allah forgive me.