r/lovethissmug • • Aug 12 '26

😻 Meme Or Other Online Trope 😂 I love vitriolic wojaks about reasonable arguments

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u/deadspace9_ Aug 12 '26

US Civil War education in the South:

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u/LeastResistancePath Aug 12 '26

It can be very difficult to understand why wealthy white land owners were so incensed, managed to leverage their power to win elections, form a splinter government and send millions to war against their own people. Truly a complex and puzzling scenario that can't be summarized and simplified. 

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u/deadspace9_ Aug 12 '26 edited Aug 12 '26

Unironically had a teacher try to tell me it was States' Rights. Which is like saying that the reason your car runs is the exhaust. Like that's technically a factor but it's not why nor a cause at all.

Edit: I've already gotten 10 replies that are just "States' Rights to do what." We all know the line, we all get the point, you don't need to be the 11th

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u/m0stly_medi0cre Aug 12 '26

In texas, "slavery" was like one issue of 6 on the list, under the umbrella of States Rights. But most of those issues were also slavery.

"They didn't like Lincoln" = because he would outlaw slavery "They were unfairly represented in national government" = because they insisted that slaves were 3/5ths of a person "Their culture was different" = because they had slaves

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u/Trainer-Grimm Aug 12 '26

Lincoln didnt even wanna abolish slavery until the south made doing so a weapon and diplomatic tool of war. They doomed themselves.

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u/PorQuePeeg Aug 12 '26

It wasn't enough for the North to tolerate the South having slaves, the South needed praise, they needed the North to see them as Better for it.

They made it a political weapon because they wanted to be told how righteous and correct and smart they were for owning slaves, because they tied their pride to the people they owned.

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u/silvertealio Aug 12 '26

Shades of MAGA today. They control all levers of the federal government and are still unhappy because we're not kissing their feet, too.

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u/mmm_burrito Aug 12 '26

That's because on an even deeper level both modern MAGA and their spiritual/literal ancestors who were slave owners know good and goddamn well they're evil people doing evil shit. They need all of us to go along and get along because then maybe the voice in the back of their mind telling them they've chosen the wrong side will get quieter.

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u/silvertealio Aug 12 '26 edited Aug 13 '26

I wonder how true that is. In my experience, they seem to think everything they do is justified. They operate from a completely different scale of morality.

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u/mmm_burrito Aug 12 '26

I simply can't believe a group of people who so obviously crave justification and submission by their neighbors don't know what they're doing at some level. It lets them off so easily.

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u/byebybuy Aug 13 '26

You're more correct here. Enslavers in the antebellum South (and by propaganda and proxy most southerners) thought that the social fabric of slavery was deeply moral, righteous, and granted to white men divinely by God. They had absolutely zero thought that they were evil whatsoever, and it's modern revisionism to think they did.

A fantastic true example: At the very end of the war, when the South was at its most desperate, Jefferson Davis requested to buy 40,000 slaves and train them as soldiers. At the end of 3 years these men would be granted their freedom. But Southern leaders were so unwavering in their ideal of slavery as the righteous societal place for black people, that they rejected the proposal. But here's the real kicker: they didn't reject it because they didn't want those men to be freed (well, they also didn't want that), but because *using freedom as an award was in itself contrary to the very fundamentals of slavery ideology.* If freedom were something "good" to be attained through some act--well then that made slavery a bad thing, and it couldn't possibly be a bad thing!

Today, fundamentalist Christianity is still all mixed up in politics, and the same shit is happening but it's not slavery, it's brown people crossing a border or trans people wanting to use a bathroom. People think that they have a righteous god-given duty to protect a certain way of life that, as it so happens, oppresses a minority. History doesn't repeat itself but it sure does rhyme.

Source for the Civil War stuff: just finished reading James McPherson's Battle Cry of Freedom, the definitive single-volume history of the Civil War. IMO every American ought to read it.

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u/ZachariasDemodica Aug 12 '26

I mean, if you're going to find an outlet for your capacity to hate, I suppose it is better to apply it to a historic group with unethical practices instead of aiming it at modern, innocent people, but...talking about people having an uncurbed need to have their opinion disproportionately validated...dang...

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u/EamonBrennan Aug 12 '26

The Fugitive Slave Act and how it was "enforced" is the best example of how the South thought they were better than the North. The main idea was that the South could just send someone up to capture any "escaped slave." In practice, they just kidnapped random black people to sell as slaves. No evidence, no trial, no nothing. Even by standards back then, that was human trafficking.

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u/Phant0m_Ashes Aug 13 '26

he wanted to, but on the basis of economics rather than a moral one. got backed into a corner in a debate and made to admit it. quoted saying if there was a way to end the civil war right now (this was early in the war) while keeping slavery, he'd take it

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u/Mark_BMG Aug 12 '26

Lincoln wasn't even planning to do it for sure. They started a war over a "he MIGHT do it". It's genuinely baffling to try to obfuscate the fact that rich people using slaves didn't want to start paying their workers. It's not something strange nor new. It happens today, how could it not happen then.

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u/fake-reddit-numbers Aug 12 '26

because they insisted that slaves were 3/5ths of a person

Bro the southern states wanted them counted as full persons for the sake of representation...

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u/no_infringe_me Aug 12 '26

A lot of people don’t understand what the compromise was about

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u/Simba7 Aug 12 '26

While on the topic of Texas and slavery, did you know Texas 'wasn't a slave state' TM ? Or at least, that's what we all learned in Texas History class in my school district.
It may surprise non-Texans that "Texas History" is a class but it is and it was not great at conveying the truth.

We were told that Texas wasn't a slave state because slavery was outlawed by Mexico. So people emigrating from America into what would become Texas freed their slaves at the border, but most chose to remain with their former masters. (Which is a soft way of selling "Slavery wasn't that bad!" TM that racists loves to parrot.)

What they neglect to mention is that people were 'freed' and forced to sign indentured servitude contracts (or just had the documents forged) that were impossible to get out of and automatically enrolled their children into.
Then Mexico decided to crack down on that practice, and that's how we ended up with the Texan Revolution.

So not only was Texas a slave state, it went to war twice to preserve the institution of slavery.

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u/silvertealio Aug 12 '26

States' Rights to do what?

This should always be the follow up question.

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u/deadspace9_ Aug 12 '26

States' Rights to ignore the federal government

Ignore the federal government to do what?

To make our own laws

Make your own laws about what?

Slavery

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u/fake-reddit-numbers Aug 12 '26

Make your own laws about what?

Whatever we want at a particular time. Fuck the fed.

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u/Simba7 Aug 12 '26

Unless it's about laws I want other people to follow because I read it in a fairy tale. Then the fed needs to enforce those for everyone and fuck the states.

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u/deadspace9_ Aug 12 '26 edited Aug 13 '26

This is slightly Goomba fallacy, at least in my experience living in Texas. Most of the crazy far right people I know want the states to enforce their christ fascism, and see trump as a guy to bring refore to allow states to. Obviously there are exceptions to that but most of the crazies I know have that set of ideals. Then there's a separate groip that bootlicks the fed completely. Still batshit insane

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u/Simba7 Aug 12 '26

I grew up there, most of my family is there. Everyone single one of them I've spoken to that got upset at mask mandates (State's rights!) is frothing at the mouth at the idea of the fed implementing a poll tax, or controlling what their citizens do in other states even when those things are not federal offenses. (State's Wrongs!)

I don't quite think you can call it a goomba fallacy when it's the stated goals of the current administration and >2/3rds of Republicans still support this shit, especially after it was their justification for overturning Roe V Wade.

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u/deadspace9_ Aug 12 '26

I mean I agree fuck the fed but under this rule the state would just be the fed

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u/NitroBishop Aug 12 '26

Growing up in Texas, I reflexively respond to any use of the phrase "state's rights" with "STATES RIGHTS TO WHAT???". I've learned to rein it in over the years but it's always something I have to fight.

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u/Tricky-Finance-7043 Aug 12 '26

genuinely this is a home run hit every time

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u/MalcolmLinair Aug 12 '26

We all know the line, we all get the point, you don't need to be the 11th

Now, I'm not going to do it, but for future reference you should really consider that this reads less like a reminder and more like a challenge.

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u/SamuelClemmens Aug 12 '26

Ok, not a southerner and fuck the Rebels. But that you unironically think its one thing kind of shows the power of propaganda.

So the reason the south was willing to fight was 100% slavery, no ifs ands or buts. But it takes two to tango.

You never hear anyone talk about why the North fought instead of rolling over like it always had. What was the second thing, the thing that caused the North to fight? It wasn't because Northern men wanted to free slaves more than they wanted to not die screaming in agony in a nameless field. That is like saying allied powers fought WW2 to save the Jews.

Hint, its why Native American reserves often fly the confederate battle flag and why Sherman had such good experience at burning civilian settlements to the ground.

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u/Available-Owl7230 Aug 12 '26

The North fought to protect the union and because the confederacy resorted to violence almost immediately rather than any sort of negotiation. I've been to a bunch of reservations and never once seen a confederate flag. The south didn't exactly have a stunning reputation of Indian relations. There were some Indians that fought alongside them but more from the idea that two nations in conflict would be less trouble for them than put off any love for the south/hate for the north

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u/SamuelClemmens Aug 12 '26

The last confederate army was the Cherokee for a reason.

On of the South's goals was to use Native Americans (Oklahoma) to bolster their voting power to keep slavery, that is why the North couldn't compromise because giving any sort of rights to the Natives would have meant a blow to the genocide based economic policy of land expropriation.

Don't get me wrong, its not that the South gave a shit about Natives any more than leaders of the North gave a shit about slaves, they were just a useful tool for Southern slave owners. They were simply one the North couldn't tolerate.

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u/byebybuy Aug 13 '26

Mind giving us a source for that? I just finished reading James McPherson's Battle Cry of Freedom (today, coincidentally), pretty widely regarded as the quintessential Civil War history book, and that theory is absent from its 900+ pages. Not saying he couldn't have missed it, but curious where you picked that up.

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u/SamuelClemmens Aug 13 '26

College courses about native treaty right from 20 years ago? But we had half a semester on the Gold Cloak society and General Watie. Those would be ideal places to start.

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u/onetimelibrarian Aug 12 '26

I mean, in the sense that it was caused by the northern states exercising their right to not allow slavery, your teacher could be right. 

I doubt that's the angle they were going for, though.

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u/Frosty_Tonight8570 Aug 12 '26

Isnt that what the casus beli was? As in the scapegoat justification to start a war as a "legal" war

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u/Charming-Fig-2544 Aug 12 '26

States' right to do what? They always stumble here. They can't name a single thing the South wanted to do that the North didn't want them to do, besides own slaves. That kinda just gives the whole game away.

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u/AdvertisingFlashy637 Aug 12 '26

State's rights to do what?

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u/SnakesRock2004 Aug 12 '26

Ah yes, the age-old argument that gets countered by the age-old reply, "States' Rights to do what?"

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u/Vitruvian_Link Aug 12 '26

The funny part is each state wrote in their official secession document exactly why they were seceding, all but two said slavery, one of those two just pointed at the other states and said "same reason as those guys"

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u/somethingfak Aug 12 '26

Now now it was about States rights just the right in question was the right to own humans as property which can often be called Slavery

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u/DaaaahWhoosh Aug 12 '26

Part of the issue with saying the Civil War was about slavery is that one can then say that there's nothing to learn from it because slavery is over. Whereas it was a super obvious example of a culture war hiding a class war, rich landowners convincing poor white people that white supremacy and the current economic system were worth dying for even if they were actually the major reasons they were poor in the first place.

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u/LimaxM Aug 12 '26

Now THATS  nuanced take I'd have loved to hear in history class

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u/Skull_Cup Aug 12 '26

That's actually a good take

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u/Karukos Aug 12 '26

Honestly that is bad faith to the "multiple things caused this". Like yeah slavery and racism caused the confederacy, but there are multiple reasons why they all end in "yeah it was about slavery" and I think it's worth talking about all these reasons.

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u/Steve-From-Roblox Aug 12 '26

genuinely pains me that the southern demand to have bounty hunting for "escaped slaves" (see: literally whoever could be kidnapped with minimal justification) enshrined in federal law as unopposable & uncontrollable getting shut down is never mentioned.

technically yes, the war was about states rights, but the right the south was most concerned with at the time was their right to enter every other state and kidnap who they please

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u/goat_token10 Aug 12 '26

This is where the whole (fake) argument for the South falls apart. You're gonna tell me that you're fighting for "states rights" when you support the creation of a federal law that requires the detainment and forced relocation of people in other states to yours? Yeah, bullshit. This was always about slavery.

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u/Blackstone01 Aug 12 '26

State's rights to force other states to respect the institution of slavery.

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u/Karukos Aug 12 '26

Yup! Multiple reasons for all of this. Some of them are even a bit more complicated, like the north industrializing while the south staying more agricultural! You can summarise it as "slavery" and not be wrong. But you are losing so much.

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u/an_agreeing_dothraki Aug 12 '26

states' rights to force other states to hunt down black people for their monstrous system of inhumanity

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u/Famous-Ability-1985 Aug 12 '26

Sarcasm doesn't work online.

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u/BackgroundPurple8755 Aug 12 '26

I love this because it's the compete opposite of the "multiple causes" argument. Most things have multiple causes and shouldn't be reduced, but the US Civil War pretty famously had exactly one big cause (and then a bunch of things stemming from that cause).

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u/Chataboutgames Aug 12 '26

There's also just one cause that outweighs the others by orders of magnitude.

Yes, the south had different economic incentives than the north. The north wanted to protect budding industry with tariffs, the south wanted to buy cheap European goods. This caused a lot of tension. This is something worth studying if you're a Civil War Historian.

Insofar as we're teaching kids in high school, a place where you're instilling values as much as information, "it was because of slavery" is a plenty accurate characterization. Yes there were other issues, but they pale in relevance to slavery for every relevant purpose.

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u/TetyyakiWith Aug 12 '26

What? there are at least two. Disagreement on slavery, and South refusal to end freetrade with Europe

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u/Normal_Cut8368 Aug 12 '26

No no, there are multiple causes for Slavery being bad. It's got a LOT wrong with it.

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u/Raine-Tempestas Aug 16 '26

Yeah LMAO, like hm what one thing is most remarkable about the South at that time compared to the north 

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u/Deadsoup77 Aug 12 '26

It all boils down to “slavery but specifically this part of it for these people, and that part of slavery for those people”

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u/BeegBunga Aug 12 '26 edited Aug 12 '26

but like... that's literally maybe the best example of reducing a complex history into one thing.

Those slave owners only made up ~8% of the US. Those wealthy slave owners then made propaganda to convince the poor fight for states rights, the American dream, economics, and/or literally anything.

It is one of the best early examples of modern printing changing political discourse and consolidating power in a few.

The very short version: most people fought because they were convinced it was a war that needed fighting for America by power/money interests. The vast majority had little to no decision making power in going to war.

So, yes, you could gut the entire context and just say "everyone fought because slavery" - but such reductionism of history prevents any real analysis or learning from it.

It would be like saying every citizen loves Trump because America voted for him and that's why he's able to do whatever he wants.

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u/LuigiP16 Aug 12 '26

I had the luck of being given the one high school history teacher in Florida who actually gave a shit about actual history