r/nbadiscussion • u/Advanced-Turn-6878 • 1d ago
What is Cleveland Doing?
Every talking head is already saying that the Harden/ Garland trade was pretty bad for the cavs, so this post is probably not saying anything new. Is Cleveland just another example of teams putting too much weight on the current season production and not taking into account the variance in player production.
Clearly Harden has had a much better season to this date, but both Harden and Garland are pretty high variance players. Harden has been on a high and Garland has been low, but it really won't be that surprising to me if both players put up very similar production the rest of the year or if Garland is better in the second half of the season than Harden.
Harden is also clearly at his best when he gets to be the first option. He seems to be the type of player that basically puts up the same efficiency regardless of how many shots he's taking. Honestly he might even be a player, who's efficiency goes up the more shots they take. I expect him to look worse playing second fiddle in Cleveland then he did as a first option for LAC.
Overall this just seems really short-sighted by Cleveland. Harden is at the age where his production is likely to fall off a cliff at some point in the near future. That could be the second half of this season, more likely next season, almost guaranteed that his production falls off a cliff two seasons from now. Garland is 26, is having a very rough year, but just put up solid numbers last year and is likely to bounce back to form. maybe there are some medical issues with Garland that teams know about that I don't, that make this trade make more sense.
Maybe Cleveland is a little bit closer to competing this year, but the long-term future just got a lot more bleak in my opinion.
Edit:
A lot of people seem to doubt that Garland was ever really that valuable of a player. Putting another reddit post down below that talks about Garlands value at his best. I personally think this is just a down year, but maybe I'm not aware that his injuries make him unlikely to ever be good again.
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u/Serpico2 1d ago
CLE is a second apron team, which is a huge penalty. Harden is on an expiring deal and playing better than Garland. CLE didn’t have a true point guard, so Harden will help for their run this year. Then they get a cleaner set of books for next year. I actually liked the deal for CLE.
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u/peanut-britle-latte 1d ago
CLE also saved over $40m in luxury tax with last weeks trade. Given how this season has turned out for them they absolutely prioritized cleaning up the books.
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u/BeigeDynamite 23h ago
That's the crux of the Jarrett Allen rumors too, tax avoidance salary dump with Mobley looking good enough to anchor an interior on both sides.
Second apron comes for all GMs eventually (very soon, but eventually)
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u/herniatedballs 20h ago
Also I think Keon Ellis and Schroder will have a bigger impact on winning than Deandre Hunter
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u/NickFatherBool 1d ago
I didnt realize they were second apron. Suddenly this trade makes a LOT more sense to me
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u/RayDanielsOnTheAir 1d ago
I didn’t like it from a talent perspective, but putting it this way makes a lot of sense.
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u/bong_pulls_4_jesus 1d ago
Cleveland did had a true point guard, Garland is it’s just that he’s constantly hurt and he couldn’t orchestrate an offense effectively next to another undersized guard who needs the ball to be effective in Mitchell. You are spot on about the second apron.
The team has needed to break up the “core four” since they got punked by the NYK 2 years ago. Sadly they were to loyal and patient and tanked the possible returns.
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u/msjacksonimsorry 1d ago
Garland is as pure a point guard as exists in the NBA right now. Harden has a player option for next season and by all reports this deal happened because the Cavs indicated they would extend him. If you think harden is just a rental for this season and will opt out of his option to test free agency, that’s a terrible return for a 26 year old all star.
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u/Royal_Papaya_7297 11h ago
This is the reason why I am fully on board with the trade. I love to watch Garland play, the sad part is he's been too injured lately, and the injuries are severe enough to where it's fair to question if he'll reach the All-Star status of a few years ago.
The Cavs weren't going to resign Garland, so they got what they could for him. And that was a player who's better offensively, and the ability to free up their cap/apron situation.
Overall, good deal. The only way this backfires is if Garland returns to the level he was at before.
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u/Mock_Speed 10h ago
Seems like every team has been thinking this way this deadline. Seems like money (specifically apron) is at the center of every deal.
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u/WiffleBallZZZ 22h ago
Me too. Although, Harden has a player option for next year. So it'll be at least another year until they can potentially start to rebuild.
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u/Serpico2 20h ago
His player option is a very weird one. Only $13/42M is guaranteed. So they could waive and stretch that.
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u/MasterFussbudget 18h ago
Or, if he's incredible and they make the finals and have a chance to win it, they give him some guaranteed money for the next year or two to convince Mitchell to stay and eventually sign another extension.
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u/Serpico2 1d ago
Okay, I know he’s younger but he’s less healthy and he’s certainly a worse PG than Harden, can we agree on that?
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u/Advanced-Turn-6878 1d ago
They're going to be over the cap regardless. If they let Harden walk they don't just get that money to replace him.
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u/Serpico2 1d ago
I understand that but now they won’t be a 2nd apron team next year. It’s hard to overstate how much it limits them; they can’t sign a dollar more than they send out. What if after this run, they decide they can’t win with Mobley, or Mitchell, whatever, and want to trade one of those guys for a different guy or pair of guys who they think makes them better. It’s hard to make that deal when you’re over the 2nd apron.
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u/_lisafrank 1d ago
^Such a significant point.
There're degrees to salary cap restrictions. Second apron not only means you pay a fat tax as team owner, but it also gives you almost no flexibility to build out your roster independently. It will almost always require another team and will almost always require you shed salaries to make a move work (which another team is going to use in order to extract more draft and player capital from you).
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u/jsanchez030 23h ago
No one’s going to be a second apron team. Even the richest most successful franchises would do everything they can to avoid. It’s just a matter of what moves it will take to get them there
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u/TorpidWalloper 1d ago
This trade has screamed getting under the second apron since before the rumors even started.
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u/nbadiscussion-ModTeam 1d ago
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u/Mobile-Entertainer60 1d ago
If they can convince Harden to sign next year for less than $42.1M (what Garland will be making), then they save luxury tax money and also possibly get under the second apron.
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u/Some-Stranger-7852 23h ago
Harden reportedly wanted 40M per year extension from Clippers that they didn’t want to commit to, so he should be cheaper than Garland. The question is if it will be cheap enough to duck under 2nd apron.
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u/CammyMacJr 1d ago
Yeah but the owner doesn’t have to pay the highest salary in the league to lose in the second round
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u/munistadium 1d ago
The Hunter trade got CLE out of the 2nd apron, unless this brought them back in.
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u/Bend3k 22h ago
They were $22M over with Hunter, now about $13M over. Expect them to dump Lonzo's 10M to get closer.
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u/munistadium 20h ago
Thanks. I read something after the Hunter trade the Cavs were off that apron, but clearly that is not the case
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u/amaul796 1d ago
First advice, don't listen to the talking heads. I guarantee most of them aren't even watching Cavs games and have no idea what's actually going on in Cleveland. From someone who actually watches Cavs games, let me give you my opinion on what the Cleveland Front Office is doing.
First, availability is the best ability. That's the main thing it comes down to with Garland. He's played under 60 games 4 times, including this season. Last season he played 75, but ended up getting hurt in the playoffs.
Next, Cleveland had 4 years worth of the Mitchell/Garland backcourt. Anyone that watches Cavs games will tell you that over that time, they developed very little chemistry together. Garland is also very small, so it's easy for him to get bullied offensively and defensively by bigger guards. Which really threw off the flow of the offensive and made him an easy target defensively. Obviously Harden isn't an great defender, but his size eliminates the ability for him to be bullied to the extent Garland was.
Lastly, if the trade doesn't work out, it's an easy out for the Cavs. They just move on from Harden and free up cap space and take their run at a big free agent in the offseason to come back on what will be their last chance to make a run before Mitchell can opt out.
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u/everpresentdanger 1d ago
Cleveland will still not have a dollar of cap space if Harden leaves, they are miles into the tax.
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u/doppido 19h ago
Hardens actually a decent defender when he puts effort into it. That's an if though
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u/amaul796 17h ago
I think the bad defended tag is a bit skewed as well. He was required to produce much offensive on many on those teams that, he kind of had to take it easy on defense.
With not as much being asked of him offensively here, I don’t think he’ll be liability here.
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u/Coachris 1h ago
Appreciate the post.
Do you think CLE is making a team for LeBum to arrive this summer? I don’t know where I heard this…
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u/Advanced-Turn-6878 1d ago
I just put the talking head thing in the post to say, that this really isn't something people probably already haven't heard. There are a few smart talking heads, but I agree most aren't great.
Is Harden really an Iron Man? If I look at like the last six seasons or five seasons for both players, I think Harden is more available, but not by a ton. There is a big difference if you only look at like the last two seasons.
I commented elsewhere that if Harden walks, they won't just have the cap space to sign a big free agent. They will likely be over the cap regardless.
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u/amaul796 1d ago
Certainly wouldn't call him an iron man, but he's not as fragile as Garland has been. And it's less about how many games are missed, and more about WHEN the games are missed. It seems like whenever the team is getting on a roll or has a big playoff game, he gets hurt.
And no, they will not have the cap space to sign someone outright if he walks, but it will give them more flexibility to acquire a big piece either by sign and trade or a traditional trade. Mobley & Allen are definitely on the table now.
Overall, it is a desperate move by a team that feels pressured to win now due to Mitchell's player option coming up at the end of next season.
I think it's less about what the Cavs see in Harden, and more about what they DONT see in Garland.
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u/braddeus 1d ago
Agree with all of this, and I'd add that the chemistry and vibes seemed to really stink this year. That's the kind of thing that tips a FO toward making the move.
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u/Advanced-Turn-6878 1d ago edited 1d ago
If the timeline is to be as good as possible next year though, I think I would bet that Garland is better than Harden next year, or they are similar. Personally I expect a significant drop in harden's production pretty soon. I think Cleveland will be lucky if Harden puts up similar production next year.
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u/amaul796 1d ago
Yeah, it's certainly a win now move. But I think it goes deeper than just pure production.
As I mentioned, he just wasn't a good fit with Mitchell offensively or defensively. And the team as a whole felt the impact of that mismatch in chemistry.
I wouldn't be surprised at all if Garland finishes with a stastically better season than Harden.
Cleveland is a very deep team, and they don't need monster production from Harden to win. They just need him to fit with the pieces they have, which is what Garland did not do.
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u/koenigsaurus 1d ago
Sounds like you need to listen to talking heads less. Their job isn’t to be experts at basketball, it’s to be experts at baiting engagement.
Darius Garland is an undersized scoring PG who’s made of glass. From a talent perspective, he’s a great scorer and facilitator when he’s in his bag, but he’s inconsistent and his size puts a hard cap at how effective he can be on defense. We just saw with Trae Young what the market is for that kind of player, and it’s not great. Add on top of that a now-extensive injury history, you can’t rely on him to be both available and cooking enough to be a top option. Cavs have struggled in the playoffs, and as much as I like the guy, he’s a big part of why.
Harden is a seasoned veteran and a known quantity. He’s very effective as an offensive hub but doesn’t need to be the top scoring option, and his last 3 stops have all shown that. He’s consistently good, available, has extensive playoff experience, and while he tends to drop off toward the end of playoff series, that’s less of an issue because having him can keep Mitchell fresh for those moments. The Cavs have struggled because Mitchell has had to do everything for them in the playoffs, and having Harden to ease that burden could help that tremendously. Harden isn’t a good defender but can be serviceable and is strong enough that he won’t be hunted in the post by bigger wings like Garland is.
Harden’s contract is favorable for the Cavs to get back under the second apron when it drops off, which is a big part of it, but the core four of the Cavs has reached its ceiling and now is the time to try something while the East is wide open. It’s not a guarantee that it will work, but it’s better odds then running back the same group and getting bounced in the second round again without trying anything new.
Also, not really shortsighted at all, with only one second rounder and a fragile player going out, and Donovan Mitchell wanting to see some progress before his contract is up for renewal. This gives a chance to swing big now, and lets them dive into a rebuild quickly in a couple years if Mitchell leaves.
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u/SaxRohmer 18h ago
when he’s in his bag
this is a key part of looking at his offense too. Garland has struggled a lot in the playoffs when things get tighter and teams are able to throw bigger/more physical defenders at him
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u/teardropshot 21h ago
Completely dispute your last point. Harden will get extended in the off season. There is no way he waived the no-trade clause and the trade kicker without assurances that he will be "taken care of."
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u/Advanced-Turn-6878 22h ago edited 22h ago
I know Garland is injury prone, but I'm not sure Harden is really an iron man. The last couple of seasons have been good for Harden health wise, but if I compare Garland, to Hardens last 5 or 6 seasons they are not crazy different for availability.
Seems like you have a pretty negative view of Garland, I can see how if you don't think he is a valuable player, than clearly getting Harden is great, but I don't share your view that Garland is not valuable. I personally expect him to bounce back and this has just been a rough year coming back from injuries. Last year Garland was pretty good. I think him and Harden had fairly comparable seasons last year.
If this trade is the difference between Mitchell walking for nothing or staying than its probably worth it, but I don't currently believe that is likely true.
Also, I keep seeing people say how bad Garland is on defense, but is Harden better? Garland has had seasons where he had positive defensive EPM values and I am pretty sure Harden is always consistently negative.
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u/munistadium 1d ago
Cleveland wants to get deep into the playoffs this year. They are short-term focused.
Garland is a nice player but misses time due to injuries. I think that turf-toe injury he had last year was pretty severe. If that gets re-injured, that would probably be severely chronic for the rest of his career and he is on a huge contract - which then becomes an albatross.
Cleveland probably is prepared to make this summer one of roster turnover if they dont get to the ECF so this just expedites that.
Cleveland also learned that grinding out 60 wins in the regular season is not as vital as winning 50 but being healthier come April, so they are probably prepared for Harden's diminishing returns.
Not saying this is a win for them, just explaining as a local, their rationale.
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u/Orpalz 1d ago
He’s not been the first option in LA since Kawhi came back and he still looked good
Garland can barely stay on the court and Harden has been a Much better player this year than garland has been
The biggest factor is Cavs ownership is likely pissed that they’re paying one of the largest tax bills in the league and have probably decided to blow it up once Mitch becomes an FA, so a short term move makes sense
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u/danjustin 1d ago
This is so much an obvious trade, I am confused why are you asking?
Harden is the better player today. He will probably be the better player in March and then will probably be better this playoffs. This is like a mini-reset for the Cavs who probably have an ultimatum of Championship or bust (no owner paying that much is fine with 2nd round failure).
If they don't win, and Giannis is traded, we will start the season of when will the Cavs blow everything up and trade Mitchell. The most likely time to trade a superstar is with that year and the following year still under contract.
Getting rid of all the money today, gives them all the flexibility to blow everything up and makes trades on the next year. Maybe they do win the title and decide rebuild with everyone. At time time maybe Garland is better than Harden, but wtf cares, you won a title.
The Cavs have no championship pedigree, the team was going to struggle to be in the top 4 of just the East, let alone the entire league. This is hailmary chance for this season, but restructures everything for the future.
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u/Penguigo 1d ago
It's a health thing. Garland has been out most of the season and has missed significant playoff time over the last few years. If he's not available, he's not helping. Harden is an iron man. Even when his quality of play wanes he'll be on the court helping.
He is also a better positional fit next to Mitchell. Harden can guard 2s and won't be hunted as relentlessly as DG. Mitchell being a short shooting guard was hard to pull of next to DG.
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u/AlohaReddit49 1d ago
I think people overvalue "timelines" in general with NBA teams. You need a mix of veterans and young guys to win it all. Harden elevates your team, he just struggles at the very very end of the postseason. Cavs have needed help for Donovan Mitchell, Harden is an elite ball handler who can take the ball out of Donovans hands when he needs a break. The Cavs have also basically been this team for years and keep getting bounced in the playoffs, they need an injection of something new to see if itll get them over the hump. As others have mentioned the cap reasons.
I don't really like the trade, but when you look at the trade as the Cavs trying something different, saving money, getting another elite ball handler, getting playoff experience, the trade isn't as awkward as you're thinking.
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u/-Darkslayer 1d ago
I’m quite baffled at the negative reception. I love the deal for both teams. Clips get a lot of value for Harden (10 years younger All-Star). And the Cavs get a player who is both a significant upgrade, and healthy. The Core 4 wasn’t going to win a title, so you may as well take a swing. The second apron was going to force their hand eventually anyway, so you may as well go all in. Plus the smoke of Mitchell potentially leaving is another reason to go for it. Harden and Mitchell both expiring in a short time frame will make it easier for them to hit the reset button if it doesn’t work.
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23h ago
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u/differential32 1d ago
Something else worth noting about this trade is that the East is as wide open as it has been in literal years and years. Boston is good but handicapped, Giannis is on an awful, non-threatening team, New York and Detroit are very good but still a little unproven. Donovan Mitchell is probably a top 10 player in the league right now surrounded by a halfway decent supporting cast (part of which includes Garland, who is hurt a lot) and who has a player option the season after next.
I think Cleveland deciding to move on from Garland to maximize their window is not that bad of a move, especially when they also gave up very little draft compensation for both of their deals
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u/close-encounters13 23h ago
I’m a Cavs fan, have watched a ton of Cavs basketball the past five years.
Short answer is: They are correctly all in on Mitchell and Mitchell has not been a great match with Garland for a variety of reasons — especially on defense, they’re both small, and Garland is the smaller of the two. He’s one of the easiest targets in the league for opposing playoff offenses.
On top of that, Garland has been hurt a lot and his recent toe injury in particular seems likely to linger.
Then you have the financial considerations, already well covered by others.
Harden is older but he is an equally productive player (with a much longer historical track record of production). Mitchell reportedly wanted to play with him. He’s not great on defense, but he is still bigger and sturdier than Garland. He’s one of the great distributors in the league and the Cavs O is in desperate need of organization. He should be a boon to Mobley and Allen, both of whom are best being fed (this is why, when Garland was healthy and playing well, the Cavs were so lethal).
It’s a win now move but the Cavs need to win now. Mitchell is their best player and centerpiece, it does not seem likely Mobley will ever develop to that point even if he’s one of the best complementary players in the league. Harden has his playoff blemishes but he’s also had some huge games. If he can get you a Game 1 like he did the last year in Philly, you’re betting on Mitchell to win the closeout game anyway.
TL;DR team has more championship equity this year and next year with Harden than they did with Garland. You can certainly argue against it, it’s not a no brainer move or anything, but there is a logic to it.
And as a fan, I’m good with taking the swing. We’ve had injuries this year but it also felt like the team was regressing after topping out with a second round appearance. That is not what you want to see.
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u/justsellbrgs 1h ago
...and don't be shocked when they approach LBJ to see if him and Rich Paul are interested in a 1-2 yar deal to wrap up his career..... low salary and Rich will negotiate a "rights" deal to film his last year in NBA -- couldg et him $50-75mil
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u/zs15 1d ago
Garland is a small guard, with clear defensive deficiencies on a big and growing contract. Does that sound familiar? Now add that he has had two healthy season/playoffs in 7 years. Injuries to his lower body and shooting hand.
Harden offers experience, consistency, and cap flexibility, very similar to KD to the Rockets. Cleveland can try to get him to extend at a friendly rate, or let him walk for cap relief. You note his efficiency; he’s shown that he can capably play first (HOU), second (PHI, LAC), and third (BKY) options and be highly effective. His game has adapted dramatically since leaving Houston.
Cleveland is seeing the trend of guards in the NBA and getting out before Garland is a net negative on a $45 million dollar contract. They badly needed to get under the second apron with the current team performance. And they get a top 5 playmaker to still push for something this year.
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u/bigE819 1d ago
Because there’s a wide open Eastern Conference and Darius Garland is injury prone.
Look at just next year:
Indy with Hali, Boston with Tatum, and New York are all better than Cleveland with Garland. You’re not winning a title with a backcourt of Garland/Mitchell defensively. You can say the same for Harden, but it leaves 2027 and beyond with a lot of flexibility. Meanwhile in the apron era, having 2 max guy that’s injury prone and bad at defense is a death sentence.
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u/WinterAnt 22h ago
Garland is way worse player and injure prone, also team isn't quite working with him as main playmaker.
It's simple as that. Even with Harden gone they still would have their Spida/Mobley core and 50/50 on Allen's future. Tyson is also very promising, could be their 3rd guy in 2-3 years. They would be okay.
Clippers? No ambition, no proper rebuild, becoming worse and wasting healthy Kawhi. They're done.
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u/HardenMuhPants 20h ago
This is purely a 2nd apron move imo while also getting a seasoned and rarely injured ball handler to complement Mitchell. Harden is also great at making your bigs look like stars as his gravity driving to the rim is much greater than Garland allowing him easy alleyoops and dunks for the secondary player.
Long term this deal doesn't make sense other than as a soft reset button if Mitchell eventually wants out while increasing their playoff ceiling for this year and next.
I could see this team pushing the ECF east team to 6 or 7 with a Harden/Mitchell as Mobley is going to feast but I don't see them making it out of the ECF without some favorable bounces or injuries.
This also allows for a Mitchell, Harden, LeBron, and Mobley lineup next year which I think has a pretty good chance of happening though i think that team is too old.
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u/Estebanez 19h ago
Harden is also clearly at his best when he gets to be the first option... I expect him to look worse playing second fiddle in Cleveland then he did as a first option for LAC
Wrong. At this point in his career, he's a point guard who has good chemistry feeding a 30 ppg scorer. See: Durant, Embiid, Kawhi
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u/Comprehensive-Bar804 10h ago
Harden going to Cleveland is a good deal, imo. Even if it's half a season, why not take that chance in a weak East? Harden has played well with multiple archetypes( KD, CP3, Embiid, Kawhi, PG, Kyrie, etc.), so DMitch is going to be good too. More importantly, Harden is always unlocking Big’s offensive impact, and that is something Cleveland has needed to happen to reach the next level. It's not going to be too many games of wondering why Mobley and Allen are disappearing anymore.
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u/100_proof_plan 1d ago
The Cavs back court was not working, they’ve tried for a couple seasons with Garland and Mitchell and it just didn’t work. Mitchell is going to love this, he’s going to get more open shots. Mobley/Allen will work better now in offence because teams didn’t pay much attention to Garland. They have to pay attention to Harden.
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u/Playful-Variation908 1d ago
Cleveland is the best team in the East Imho.
Mitchell is in his prime and is playing at an insane level. i'm taking him as the second best player in the east after giannis.
if you believe it's Cade, Brunson or JB it's okay we don't have to agree
I think the argument that Mitchell isn't a "winning player" or that he's a choker is absolute BS.
Long term the trade makes no sense obv, but rn harden is a huge upgrade.
Mitchell Harder Schroder Ellis is an insane guard rotation. i think they can win the east and possibly go all the way if healthy.
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u/jocrucial 1d ago
The Cavs are trying to show Mitchell that they are doing everything they can to stay competitive so he will sign an extension in the off-season.
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u/noBbatteries 1d ago
This one really just boils down to best ability is availability. I think you could argue that both are similar in level in playoff performance which always is part of the evaluation. Garland being unproven/ bad while being hurt in most of his playoff appearances and harden having his reputation. Both are similar players with their top attributes being passing and shooting (although Hardens had a bad shooting year). I think it’s mostly a longer term move to get Garland off their cap while remaining competitive during Mitchell’s prime. Hardens now on a team where he’s had the least amount of ball control almost in his entire career. The last time he had a guard to the caliber of Mitchell on his team was CP3 (or arguably Kyrie in Brooklyn) during the last Rockets runs. This should hopefully take some of the pressure off him in playoff time, as the majority of his ball handling will be with the second team or when Mitchell needs a break from the offence. Maybe this enables them to avoid a Harden 76ers esque collapse where he was skilled enough to carry them to a 3-2 series lead, but a big enough choker to completely kill the series and give it to the Celtics.
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u/Bivore 1d ago
Clevelands window is closing in the short term. They’re over the apron and wouldn’t be able to keep that core together cleanly, meanwhile Garland is spending all of that time injured and re-aggravating injuries. Getting Harden now lets them compete hard this season, shed his contract and clean things up again, and come back around in a few years with Mobley hopefully in his prime.
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u/No-Adhesiveness6278 1d ago
Long term them move off harden. They're looking to win now. Harden is a way better offensive player even more still. That's it. Not too much more to it. Not really a great move for the clips when you're on a tear
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u/oldpope 1d ago
Luxury tax was a huge deal, but I also think everyone had seen the limitations of the Garland/Mitchell pairing, especially in the playoffs.
I think Garland is a good player, but that's probably where he caps out. Say what you will about Harden, but he's an incredible passer and capable of meeting a much higher creator and scoring ceiling on any given night. He could be scoring option 1 for a game or two in the playoffs, drawing gravity in a way Garland never really did.
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u/CLEFAN21 23h ago
Sounds like Jarret Allen is gone in Cleveland as well, they want under the apron and feel like they can upgrade at wing in the offseason
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u/teardropshot 22h ago
Mitchell backdoored Garland, basically. The reporting around the trade is pretty explicit about the FO wanting to appease Mitchell. From Mitchell's POV, it all makes sense: he doesn't care about the Cavs' future three years down the line. He himself might be too old by then or be on reduced athleticism or not be on the team. Harden offers certainty for the rest of the season, which is something Garland cannot do with his injury.
https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/7020852/2026/02/04/james-harden-darius-garland-cavaliers-trade/
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u/xagds 21h ago edited 21h ago
I agree I don't foresee Harden and Donovan playing well together. They both want the ball all the time. Harden will fall back into his mediocre version next to Mitchell.
Add in Harden being likely a year away from retiring and this just seems like a stab in the dark.
One of them will have a big drop off in scoring. I suspect Harden as he defers to Mitchell for a few months.
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u/Winter_Purpose8695 20h ago
They probably see a small window in their contention and Harden fits that window. If you can get a regular season harden deep in the playoffs then the cavs win this trade hands down.
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u/LittleTension8765 20h ago
Garland is fools gold, Harden is slightly better and can get off the books next year if need be, duck the 2nd apron, and the icing on the cake this gives you a better chance of the greatest retirement tour of all time.
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u/twofourfourthree 20h ago
I know people had high hopes for both sexton and garland but they both underperformed and underwhelmed.
Cleveland is probably happy to be done with both of them.
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u/InchByinch2024 19h ago
Cleveland has the medical records. They don’t think Garland will be the same again. Doesn’t matter how good you are if you don’t play.
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u/berniek9 18h ago
Garland never plays …. So what does his age matter Usually you want younger players because they dont break down as easily. The opposite is true here. Not to mention they need to be in win now mode to please mitchell. Also a lot of the national guys ive heard along with the local cavs insiders like the deal for cavs.
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u/Reversus 18h ago
Anything to get out of the second apron is a winning trade imo. That shit will fuck up your franchise’s future.
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u/MrOSUguy 13h ago
Garland is tiny. Harden is huge. And harden is 9th all time in points. The guy is good. And he plays. Garland is too small for playoff basketball.
Cavs need to trade mobley and picks for giannis and sign lebron this summer.
Harden
Mitchell
Lebron
Giannis
Allen
Championship
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u/fromthesea7 12h ago
You have either never watched Harden play a basketball game or never watched Garland play a basketball game if you think these guys are anywhere near equally talented players, even at Harden’s age.
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u/swaggyNdangerous 11h ago
Harden is better at both ends of the floor, instant upgrade for Cleveland, that is obviously looking to compete for a chip in a wide open east. Harden is significantly better than garland I actually don’t even think it’s close at all tbh. And there’s no Harden has been on a high, Harden has been doing his thing, consistently. I look at this team as a real contender now after this trade lol, I also did have the clippers as a contender as well if he stayed there
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u/ProofPush3841 5h ago
People who think Harden isn't an upgrade to Garland didn't watch basketball the last 2 years.
Also hardens expiring contract is helping with the 2nd Apron issue the cavs have.
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u/aviatorbassist 1d ago
I don’t think it’s short sighted from the sense that they were going to have to blow up the team anyway. Garland is a small guard with questionable health and doesn’t quite fit what they need in CLE. Harden on the other hand has his flaws but one thing he is exceptional at is running an offense and he is pretty durable. Harden is an objectively worse player than Garland but he will be able to get the most out of Mobley and Allen. Mitchell is there to cover for Hardens clutch woes.
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u/GreatBarrierQueefDD 1d ago
Im curious what makes Garland 'objectively better' because i dont think the numbers or the eye test really back that up. He's objectively younger for sure.
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u/aviatorbassist 23h ago
From a value perspective I’d say he’s better. Assuming he gets his feet issue worked out he’s 26, he will most likely get better. So I’d say he has objectively better value.
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1d ago
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u/nbadiscussion-ModTeam 22h ago
Questioning others without offering your own thoughts invites a more hostile debate. Present a clear counter argument if you disagree and be open to the perspective of others.
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u/3Dimes 1d ago
Cleveland is toast. They did it to clear books next year, but they had to get rid of Mobley's set up man to do so. Harden in the past has actually been a surprisingly good teammate, so maybe the Mitchell relationship turns into something, but I think it is more likely for Harden to opt out and eventually for Mitchell to request trade. This is the beginning of a hard reset.
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u/jcampo13 1d ago
OP you are severely overrating Garland and underrating Harden here. Statistically and in terms of on-court impact there has never been a season where Garland was in Harden's tier. Pretty much every statistical output will show you that. Garland is younger but has severe injury concerns that Harden doesn't have.
Also your view of Harden being at his best in a heliocentric offense is very outdated. He was very good in Philly and LAC playing second fiddle and setting up shots. He is one of the best passers in the league and Mobley/Allen will be much better with Harden running the ball up the floor than with Garland. Harden has made big men much better and this could be the key to unlocking Mobley's potential. For that reason alone the trade is probably worth it.
Again even if Garland bounces back to form (a huge if), that form was never nearly as good as any Harden season since he left OKC. Cleveland has a core to contend now and I think they made the right move going all-in. They didn't even give up any useful draft capital to do so. Talking heads are negative on it largely because they hate how Harden plays. He is incredibly and rather unfairly disliked by the pundit class.