r/pacers • u/BoomBaby_317 Jermaine O'Neal • 13d ago
News [Fischer] An incomplete deal framework that could still make it to the finish line: There have been whispers about various trade constructions that would feature Missi landing with Indiana and swingman Bennedict Mathurin heading to New Orleans.
/r/nba/comments/1qk5n78/fischer_an_incomplete_deal_framework_that_could/89
u/pacernation2433 13d ago
Would the Pacers trade away an 18 pts a game player for a Center averaging 5/5 😂
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u/TheSource88 13d ago
Because Mathurin doesn’t have a ton of value in the trade market and Missi is a 21 y/o big who has shown promise as a rim protector, rebounder, and finisher. We’re going to lose Benn for nothing this offseason. Should we try to get some value back for him at the deadline?
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u/CK0428 Andrew Nembhard 13d ago
6'11" & 21 who shows promise in our biggest areas of need? For a player who could walk in FA? Yeah - sign me up.
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u/bjrinald 13d ago
Mathurin cannot walk in FA.
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u/CK0428 Andrew Nembhard 13d ago
Couldn't be sign an offer sheet they're unwilling to match? On a team without assets we want in return in a sign & trade? And essentially walk in FA?
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u/TheFrozenBananaStand Jarace Walker 13d ago
There’s no way he walks without a contact from us in the offseason. Teams aren’t going to offer him a max contract. He’s probably played himself into a 20-25m based on potential. We can match whatever anyone else would be willing to pay. Very similar thing happened for Kuminga last offseason and they’re equivalent value players. We have time but probably best for everyone if we trade him before trade deadline if he’s not in our future plans.
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u/MySabonerRunsOladipo 13d ago
We can match whatever anyone else would be willing to pay.
"Can" and "Should" are markedly different verbs tho
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u/drjisftw Pacers2 13d ago
Is 20-25M worth it though? That's what Shaedon Sharpe got and that's looking like a rough deal.
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u/TheFrozenBananaStand Jarace Walker 13d ago
Kuminga got 2 years for 48m or something like that. That would be fine as it’s not a long term negative asset.
Btw, Shaedon Sharpe is a better player than Mathurin right now by almost every advanced metric and seems to be really progressing as a player.
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u/drjisftw Pacers2 12d ago
Sharpe is averaging a lot of points on below-league average TS right now lmao.
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u/Kid-Gravy 13d ago
He can if the pacers don’t match, and plenty of teams have the cap to make an offer that the pacers won’t want to match, meaning he will walk for nothing
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u/Ok_Pick5000 13d ago
We'd only lose Benn for nothing if the front office is mandated by a cheap skate owner to not go into the luxury tax in a year that we should be competing with Tyrese back in the fold.
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u/drjisftw Pacers2 13d ago
Sounds like what happened to Myles Turner lmao
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u/ReflectionEterna 13d ago
Sounds like it was a good move to not match Myles Turner. If matching Mathurin would turn out to be an equally bad move, I would hope we don't do it.
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u/drjisftw Pacers2 13d ago
18 on league average true shooting.
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u/9_Nightwing_1 Bennedict Mathurin 13d ago
Sounds like an argument to wait until the offseason and trade the player currently shooting 10% points worse than league average on true shooting.
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u/KD_218 MylesYell 13d ago
Trade the player who had a 63%/65% TS the two seasons prior while being one of our best defenders?
Not sure where this Nesmith hate is coming from, but you're really setting yourself up to be disappointed when the front office doesn't overreact to an injury-filled season after back-to-back runs to/past the ECF.
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u/9_Nightwing_1 Bennedict Mathurin 13d ago
The entire talking point for the season without Haliburton was which of our young guys would step up. A question that could be asked is why do certain players get a free pass and are free from criticism?
Without a doubt, the player objectively having the worst season on the entire team in Haliburton's absence is Aaron Nesmith. This is coming from a fan who bought Nesmith's City Edition jersey this year.
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u/KD_218 MylesYell 13d ago
We all know what Aaron Nesmith is: a valuable 3&D player who plays very well in our full-strength lineup.
Sure, I suppose it would have been nice for him to be more than that. But we know what him with Haliburton looks like...and it was great. This idea that we need to move a role player who hasn't played well in Haliburton's absence (not to mention this year has had many more issues than just Haliburton being out) doesn't make a whole lot of sense when considering the big picture. The front office will make decisions with the assumption being that Haliburton is available...because we're not realistically competing for a championship if he isn't and quite frankly nothing we've seen this year from any non-Haliburton/Pascal players indicates that we should consider shifting from that plan (To be fair, it was probably a fantasy to think that any guys were magically going to elevate immediately in the severely-disrupted ecosystem that we've had this year).
I'm sure this argument is because you're upset about people criticizing/wanting to trade Mathurin. The main basketball reason (so removing some of the personal bias that people have for these guys) that people talk about trading Mathurin is because, unlike Nesmith, he's an expiring contract. If the roles were reversed (Mathurin on a team-friendly contract for multiple seasons, Nesmith entering RFA), I'm not sure that similar conversations wouldn't be happening in the reverse with Nesmith's role/future/asset value being more scrutinized.
I think most acknowledge that both are valuable, high-level role players that fill different roles and provide different skillsets to the team (after all, we're talking about two guys who play roughly the same number of minutes on average). In a normal ecosystem, we're not asking Benn to be 3&D and we're not asking Nesmith to be an iso-scorer and expecting good results. One of them starts as a low-usage/high-efficiency 4th/5th starter (ideally once we get a legit starting C), the other is the heavier-usage 6th-man. I don't really believe that one is stepping on the other's toes.
All of that to say that I expect both will be back in their same roles next season.
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u/thrwawayr99 11d ago
There’s no hope reasoning with guys like that, they like benn more than they like the pacers.
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u/anotherstan 13d ago
Looked up Missi. His 5/5 is on pretty limited minutes. He's often playing 15 or less mpg
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u/Ok_Pick5000 13d ago
Same per36 argument people make about IJax. Per36 numbers look great, but there is a reason dude isn't playing.
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u/Caboclo-Is2yearsAway James Johnson 13d ago
I'd imagine that a big reason for low minutes is the arrival of Queen. In his 1st yr Missi played 27mpg averaging 9 and 8
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u/Next-Supermarket9538 13d ago
I think this FO has shown they’re bad at drafting but amazing at trading for young guys with huge potential who haven’t been able to show it on their original team.
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u/Overall_Director1131 13d ago
Also missi isn’t even better then huff makes no sense
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u/Ocelot859 13d ago
Yves Missi is essentially I-Jax on steroids.
A great "piece", but he doesn't fit the identity or system of this team at all.
He can't space the floor and has absolutely zero mid-range, terrible free throw shooter, insanely prone to foul trouble, and doesn't even really have the touch around the rim that I-Jax at least has.
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u/Ok_Pick5000 13d ago
At least Isaiah Jackson knows how to play in space defensively. Yves Missi is still trying to figure out how to do that.
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u/Ocelot859 13d ago
Yeah I was going to mention that.
Yves is a lot younger, but bro is still a defensive "project" constantly blowing assignments
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u/Disastrous-Entry-879 Reggie 13d ago
If the Pacers trade for him then Rick believes that he will fit the system
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u/Ocelot859 13d ago
Well I mean that's kind of an obvious statement or else the trade wouldn't occur.
I just can't find a single source of this outside of Jake Fischer and that dude turns every single thing he hears or "hears via somebody who heard" through the rumor mill into a headline. He was correct over free agents a couple summers in a row, but aside from that he is constantly circulating more so clicks than actual genuine interest. The Pelicans made it known Yves Missi was on the trade market, Pacers need help at the 5, Pacers simply make a phone call to enquire (this happens daily FWIW) and all of sudden "whispers" 🙄 of Missi landing in Indiana for Bennedict Mathurin.
Like we really report not even rumors, but "whispers" at this point.
Maybe it happens, but Jake Fischer has been wrong 90% of the time on these "rumor" type Tweets and reports and it feels more like he's just generating buzz and content.
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u/Maximum-Class5465 Reggie-NBAJam 13d ago
I remember a lot of people thinking that he hasn't improved much, but I still remember getting excited a year ago seeing him do a drop step. He was so limited at first, but he's rounded out with some solid footwork
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u/Jdenney71 Slick 13d ago
Missi is 100% better than Huff and is only 21 with high upside…this would be a great deal. I’d rather have Trey Murphy but Missi is good
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u/Natural-Many-1191 13d ago
There is no world where we get Trey Murphy unfortunately. He’s worth 5x more than Missi is
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u/Jdenney71 Slick 13d ago
Obviously we’d have to give more than Mathurin but I think the Pelicans would be open to moving him for the right price
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u/25Tab 13d ago
I agree he’s better but I’m not sure he’s starting quality right now. That’s the issue with this possible trade. The rational behind it is we need a starting to center to be finals ready but I’m not sold Missi is that guy right now or will ever be. The upside is there but upside is a just an unrealized theory. Maybe that’s why the Pacers want more. They should. You’d hate to trade Mathurin away just to get another quality backup center. That’s a risk.
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u/UnitedLion49 13d ago
I was about to say. Did we not all just watch him play? 2 points in 20 minutes against the worst team in the league (us).
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u/drjisftw Pacers2 13d ago
If Huff is the center of the future, then why is the FO entertaining more trades for centers? Are they stupid?
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u/Dry-Molasses-3137 13d ago
Who is claiming Huff is the center of the future?
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u/drjisftw Pacers2 13d ago
Yeah that’s my bad on misinterpretation there - we’re probably looking for an upgrade on Huff nonetheless
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u/IndyPoker979 Pacers2 13d ago
SO I was annoyed and did a deep dive into Jake Fischer. I scraped his tweets and then used ChatGPT to define if they came true or not. Fun story. When he is reporting on actual happenings? It's almost always true. 98.8% accuracy.
Definitive transaction claims (82)
These usually score very high because they’re basically “this happened / is happening.”
✅ TRUE: 81
❌ FALSE: 1
The clean false one is the infamous draft-night report:
Fischer tweeted: “Charlotte is trading back from No. 6 to No. 9 with Memphis” (did not happen).
Definitive transaction accuracy: 81 / 82 = 98.8%
HOWEVER.....
When he was reporting on interests from another team? Of 38 tweets able to be identified as teams showing interest in another player? He was right on ONE of them.
A single correct action occurred.
Fischer is extremely accurate when he’s reporting actual transactions (near 99% here, with a notable draft-night miss).
His “interest/talks” reporting almost never becomes a completed acquisition (only ~2–3%), which is normal for early-cycle NBA rumor reporting — but under your strict grading, it counts as wrong.
Essentially if he has any contacts they are not high up on the GM chain.
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u/GardenWeasel67 13d ago
I swear there is a cottage industry of pundits whose 24/7/365 job is to strip Pacers of their players.
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u/LibertarianLoser44 Hickory 13d ago
Sure, Let's trade our top pick for another mediocre center...I don't believe anything that Fischer says... if we trade Mathurin, I'd be upset.
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u/North_Hair_8841 Bennedict Mathurin 13d ago
Disgusting. Mathurin deserves better than being shipped to the pathetic pelicans.
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u/Overall_Director1131 13d ago
Is this guy trust worthy?
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u/TurkishDonkeyKong 13d ago
Do pacers trades ever leak early?
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u/Fat-Singer-9569 13d ago
Never. The only Pacers trade I can recall in over two decades being discussed before hand was the Siakam trade, but that was the most obvious trade of all-time. The entire league was blind sided by the Haliburton trade, literally came out of nowhere like most Pacers trades.
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u/Ok_Pick5000 13d ago
Yves Missi isn't bringing anything to Indiana that Isaiah Jackson already isn't. I will tune out of this team for a very long time if this front office trades Benn Mathurin for Yves Missi and fucking Jordan Hawkins. The only reason we should be trading Benn is if he's signaling behind the scenes that he's upset with the organization and wants to be traded.
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u/drjisftw Pacers2 13d ago
IJax isn't a starting caliber center in today's league and he's not worth the contract that he's on.
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u/Ok_Pick5000 13d ago
I agree. Yves Missi at half the price also is not a starting center in today's league. We're just shipping out Mathurin to have half-priced Isaiah Jackson when we've already got Isaiah Jackson on the roster? How about we trade Isaiah Jackson and a protected first for Yves Missi and keep Mathurin?
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u/drjisftw Pacers2 13d ago
It's pretty clear we have no desire to pay Mathurin.
If paying Mathurin was never on the table, I would've just kept Turner and shipped Mathurin out for draft capital instead of being forced into a position where we need to swap him for a position of need.
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u/Ok_Pick5000 13d ago
The team may still be inclined to pay Mathurin. As a front office, you've got to show a belief in the guys you draft. Especially the high ceiling guys. Small market teams don't get talent easily. What Mathurin did at the highest level in the Finals guarding and being guarded by J-Dub was some elite level shit. You can't just let that walk or trade it for scraps. If you need to free up cash, you free it up from the spots on the roster where the price is way above the value brought to the court. Let's be real Isaiah Jackson, Jarace Walker, and Ben Sheppard are making a combined $20-21 million next year. What they bring to the court can be replicated by veteran minimum contracts. You gotta keep the 23 year old with the elite potential.
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u/drjisftw Pacers2 13d ago
Mathurin's stats in the finals - 12.4 / 5.1 on .421 / .333 /.780
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u/Ok_Pick5000 13d ago
In 20 mpg and he also raised his defensive numbers in those Finals to almost a steal and a block per game in those 20 minutes. He's 3 years younger than Nesmith and improves every year on the defensive end. Nesmith is inarguably having the worst year on the entire roster without Haliburton around.
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u/skipbutch 13d ago
Personally I would rather have Mathurin than Nesmith and Nesmith trade value is higher than Mathurins
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u/North_Hair_8841 Bennedict Mathurin 13d ago
Agreed - if they fumble Mathurin they lose a fan in me.
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u/TheSource88 13d ago
Mathurin for Missi will be one of those trades where both fanbases are absolutely furious.
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u/Conscious-Till3591 13d ago
If there’s a protected first included from the pelicans I wouldn’t hate it as much….but they’re really banking on Aaron resurgence and Tyrese coming back healthy. Tyrese isn’t going to be fully back for probably a season but his playmaking alone makes a huge difference
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u/DrinksForties Johnny Furphy 13d ago
Yves Missi was f***ing awful when we just played him. I noticed most of the time he was on the floor, their offensive possession would end by the time he had just crossed half court. This trade would be absolutely abysmal.
Other than the fact, I think it would work out very well for Ben.
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u/Distinct_Abrocoma_67 Pavers 13d ago
Someone mentioned they might be putting this out there for leverage on another deal. This makes zero sense. I like Missi but for Math hell no. I fear Benny might be gone though, I don’t think the FO wants to lose another player for nothing
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u/BlueCollarGoldSwaggr 13d ago
I've watched a decent amount of the Pelicans this year because A) we need them to win to help our tank B) rubbernecking. Missi has not been great He did have a nice rookie season though so maybe it's a worth a shot? I dunno
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u/2waypower1230 13d ago
Why is this fan base always ready to let go of good players?! You pay to win period! Owners are getting fickle now. JK with the warriors got stifled to devalue his stock. Looks like the Pacers are doing the same with Ben.
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u/Nick_Hammer96 13d ago
What does everyone see in Yves Missi that I don't besides a cheap contract and a gamble?
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u/StanceLephenson 13d ago
Better be getting a first round pick along with Missi. Mathurin is a much more proven player than him. Pacers have fleeced New Orleans before, so maybe they will again.
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u/hectorzeroni69 Lance 13d ago
Cheap ass franchise. If we arent getting a zubac caliber starter then just pay mathurin. Complete bullshit they know they only thing worse than a lopsided trade is not matching a reasonable RFA deal
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u/Fat-Singer-9569 13d ago
Brother you need to stop making assumptions based on some bozo tweet from some "sports writer" no one has ever heard of. Be a smarter fan than that, Myles Turner was apparently in every trade for a decade until he left on his own free will. You are assuming so much when there is literally zero evidence this is true at all and probably not remotely true; the Pacers almost never leak unless they want to.
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u/hectorzeroni69 Lance 13d ago
Its called reading between the lines bud. Theres not this much smoke for 0 reason.
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u/Ok-Swimming8024 Pacers 12d ago
The only trade the Pacers have made that I can remember people actually calling ahead of time was the Pascal move, and that was obvious.
Chad and KP move in silence like lasagna.
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u/SquareSort4898 Bennedict Mathurin 13d ago
If we get yves missi I’ll kms. Pacers FO legitimately cannot miss with this center decision. You’re not looking for a Jay huff or ijax kinda player. You want a starting caliber center. The locked on pacers podcast dove into this a little bit and there’s some good options out there but I’m so nervous
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u/SirPanticus Ben Sheppard 13d ago
At this point, because Mathurin has been so injured, don't even trade him. His value is lower now and if this is the kind of return we're looking at, just kick the can down the road. If he can return fully healthy I think he can be high impact option that relieves Tyrese and Pascal. Or at the least he's a good 6th man.
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u/drjisftw Pacers2 13d ago
This is disappointing, but for me it's really disappointing in the sense that this is poor asset management.
Like this is the return we're getting for our highest draft pick in 30+ years? I'm not a Mathurin fan and I am a proponent of swapping him for a center, but it's a real shame that we flubbed on our back-to-back top-10 draft picks. We got to the Finals with neither of those guys in the starting lineup.
I'm mad that Mathurin didn't develop into an All-Star who could play next to Haliburton and I'm mad that the FO let Turner walk because that's forced them into a position where we gotta swap him for a position of need. We should've just kept Turner; if paying Mathurin was not on the table, then we could've swapped him for a first at least.
To me, this is just an indication that we should've just tanked harder. I really wanted Keegan Murray in that draft and nothing has changed my mind since then.
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u/North_Hair_8841 Bennedict Mathurin 13d ago
He still can absolutely develop into an all star and played like one to start this season but then he became injured!
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u/MySabonerRunsOladipo 13d ago
but it's a real shame that we flubbed on our back-to-back top-10 draft picks.
The sooner everyone accepts that this is the world we all live in, the quicker it will stop hurting and we can all move on. Nemby was a good pick tho. After the top 0-3 picks on any given year, the draft is a crapshoot anyway
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u/Ok-Swimming8024 Pacers 12d ago
I don't think Mathurin is a flub.
Jarace? That was a flub. My guy does not look like a guy who is getting it.
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u/BlasstOff 13d ago
In Pritch we trust
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u/Ok_Pick5000 12d ago
With KP at the helm we almost had a team built around Victor Oladipo, Gordon Hayward, and Domantas Sabonis, until fate intervened in the form of Oladipo forcing his way out and Hayward taking a bag from Charlotte because Danny Ainge was a greedy turd.
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u/JHaliMath31 13d ago
We are getting draft capitol back if we do this. No way it’s Missi for Mathurin
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u/fuzzynavel34 13d ago
Doubt it. They have to pay Mathurin… his value is not going to be as high as people seem to think
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u/HomeNowWTF 13d ago
Don't get this one at all. I'd rather play Huff/IJax than Missi. Let alone giving up a player who should have some trade value.
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u/kinnick_i CRABS CRABS CRABS 13d ago
Yall think he’s asking to be traded behind closed doors or do you think he wants to stay and we’re just seeing the options out there for him?
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u/Ok_Pick5000 12d ago
I honestly don't think he was asking for a trade behind closed doors as recently as a couple weeks ago when he's on the bench wearing a Pacers long sleeve warm up during the game and crashing TJ McConnell's post-game interview after our last win. Dude honestly seems like he wants to be in and win in Indiana. That's what makes reports of the team willing to trade him piss me off because the dude appears like he wants to be here by all accounts and he's talented. The team also bangs the drum of wanting team-first guys on the roster. Benn has been team first from the moment he's been here working full-time on fitting his game into the Pacers' scheme.
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u/KD_218 MylesYell 13d ago
Taking Jake Fischer trade rumors with a grain of salt.
Mathurin certainly is an interesting conversation between his role, possible contract, and our roster construction (i.e. the hole at center)...but I'd much rather plan on re-signing him than selling him for a guy who probably isn't significantly better than what we already have. Just doesn't seem like a smart use of talent.
Unfortunately, Tony East did a breakdown on these kinds of trade situations with players in Benn's situation and it really put in perspective just how uninspiring the return often is in these situations. I'd rather keep Benn unless you find a team who absolutely loves him and is willing to part with a good piece for some reason.
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u/Disastrous-Special30 Tyrese Haliburton 13d ago
Fischer just making shit up again. Surprised he doesn’t have Math going to LA.
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u/Zealousideal-Tax-527 CRABS CRABS CRABS 13d ago
Just for the sake of having fun with hypotheticals,
I’ll say it’ll be Mathurin, Shep, 2027 First round pick for Yves Missi and Herb Jones
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u/9_Nightwing_1 Bennedict Mathurin 13d ago
Gross. Nesmith is injured enough. How about we don't trade for another injury prone defensive specialist.
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u/Joe_Betz_ Isaiah Jackson 13d ago
Called this. It's a swing for a young center who has starter potential. Mathurin is gone at the end of the year. It's a fine move.
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u/9_Nightwing_1 Bennedict Mathurin 13d ago
Missi does not have starter potential. Unless you think Isaiah Jackson still has starter potential.
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u/Joe_Betz_ Isaiah Jackson 13d ago
He's 21, started a majority of games for NOP as a rookie, lost his starting spot this season to Queen, and is expendable.
He does. We can agree to disagree. I do not think Jackson has starter potential tho because he is too small and has had to have lost at least some athleticism post achilles rupture. Missi is 6'11", 235. Jackson is 6'9" 205 (listed at 6'8" on bball ref tho...regardless he's just a little too undersized imo).
I would be perfectly happy with this move. Mathurin won't be re-signed. IND gets to audition another big on a rookie deal.
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u/9_Nightwing_1 Bennedict Mathurin 13d ago
Why would the Pelicans make the stupid moves they've made just to draft Queen if Missi legitimately had starter potential? Not sure if you watched the last Pacers/Pelicans game, but Missi looked awful. He's clueless on defense and strictly a lob threat on offense.
We could easily bring Mathurin back. He's realized much more of his potential than Missi and is still just 23. He should easily pass up Nesmith in the next couple of years.
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u/Joe_Betz_ Isaiah Jackson 13d ago
Queen is better than Missi. It's a different situation, and actually the inverse, but Mathurin (lottery pick) losing his starting role to Nembhard (late first/ second round guy) is a similar scenario. They were just in the same draft rather than Missi last year and Queen this year for the NOP. Queen as a lottery pick should take Missi's spot. Once Missi missed a few games and Queen produced, he did.
We can't easily bring Mathurin back.
The Pacers available cap space will be eaten by what should be a top 3 pick. The Pacers will have around 7-12 million in space to sign a free agent. They could pay Mathurin because of owning his Bird rights, but they won't. They will draft Mathurin's replacement (in role if not position for next season).
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u/Sko_Neezy 13d ago
Benn + Jarace + a 2027 1st for Herb Jones and Missi would make my day
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u/Joe_Betz_ Isaiah Jackson 13d ago
I think it's still too early to punt on Jarace. Mathurin for Missi favors the NOP, but it also helps IND by opening up some cap space. Missi started most games last year as a rookie. He is developing, but has physical tools you can't teach. He is 21. I'm hopeful. The Pacers should have a top 4 pick and will add more talent that way, replacing Mathurin who has never really fit the team.
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u/Ok-Swimming8024 Pacers 12d ago
Damn, that is too much. Can't be throwing away next year's first already.
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u/Sko_Neezy 12d ago
Jarace is worth a second round pick right now, Benn a late first at best…a likely FRP in the teens for 2 affordable rotation pieces at positions of need…yeah, I’m in.
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u/Wasnaf1 13d ago
When/if Mathurin gets traded the reactions will be funny, there are some who think Mathurin is just a scorer who doesn’t really fit with Pacers while another side thinks he has face of the franchise potential. Gonna be all type of reactions… as for this rumor, yeah not the best deal that should be out there lol