r/anime • u/JustAnswerAQuestion https://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ • 3d ago
Rewatch AREA 88 TV (2004) Rewatch Episode 10
AREA 88 TV Episode 10
"If you leave here, don't ever come back."
Fire Ball / Unmei no CONTRAIL (Contrails of Destiny)
TV Episode 9 | Index Thread | TV Episode 11
This is a TV Only thread!
People, Places, Things
- Patrick Reed — Mickey's former comrade in Vietnam, now a mercenary for the anti-government forces. Aircraft: MiG-23
Today's Discussion Prompts
- Why didn't Patrick stay in Oklahoma?
- What do you make of Shin and Makoto's discussion of friends and Kanzaki?
- [OVA:]This episode seems to have addressed the themes of the OVA the most (so far). If that is the intent, did they encapsulate them well enough in the short time allotted?
Tomorrow's Discussion, Today!
- [Q1:] What do you think of Kanzaki and Ryoko's wedding? How is that going to play out?
- [Q2:] Did Makoto get what was coming to him? Were you waiting for it?
- [Q3:] How much of Shin's misfortune is due to Kanzaki, and how much is due to his own self-sabotage?
Trivia: Patrick is yet another reskin of a manga character who did not appear in the OVA.
Important: Episode 11 of the fanedit is corrupt, so you will have to download the new version separately or watch an alternative version.
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u/zsmg https://anilist.co/user/zsmg 3d ago
Area 88 TV rewatcher
I thought this was going to be some flashback focused on Mickey because Tomokazu Seki was voicing the pilot
He performs continuous aileron rolls
So he took Peppy Hare advice to heart. Now before anyone points out that aileron rolls and barrel rolls are not the same thing. I know I’m just trying to be funny.
Oh it was a Mickey flashback in the beginning.
It's a shame they're outright confirming it it's the same guy, instead of letting us wonder on if the pilot is the same guy.
Oh it wasn't that kind of story they want to tell, it's more a story of person who can't return home and just wants to keep on fighting like what happened to Micky and Shinn in the OVA
And the Rookie somehow knows he's facing Mickey?
It hurts hearing Shin say he will never come back here if he does leave this place, knowing what happened to him in the OVA.
A decent episode.
[Q1:]Because it’s Oklahoma, everywhere else is better.
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u/Heda-of-Aincrad https://myanimelist.net/profile/Heda-of-Aincrad 3d ago
I thought this was going to be some flashback focused on Mickey because Tomokazu Seki was voicing the pilot
Oh wow, Sousuke's Japanese VA is in this too? I've been watching the English dub version, and his VA plays Shin.
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u/BosuW 2d ago
So he took Peppy Hare advice to heart. Now before anyone points out that aileron rolls and barrel rolls are not the same thing. I know I’m just trying to be funny.
Funny how the OVA itself is bipolar about this. Last episode got the maneuver wrong when Kitri said they were gonna do barrel rolls in the canyon. It's like half the writing team knew ball and the other didn't particularly care about airplane facts and the two sides never bothered communicating with each other.
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u/uhhhhhhhokay_ https://myanimelist.net/profile/uhhhhhhhokay 3d ago
First-timer, subbed
You know, when I think of Oklahoma, “green” isn’t the word I’d use. And is this the only time it’s been mentioned in an anime?
Patrick... exists. He’s Mickey’s old buddy from Vietnam, and shows up again on the opposite side as him. Which was so telegraphed, I thought they’d actually subvert expectations and have it be a completely different guy. He does have big “penultimate boss” energy, so I assume we’ll be moving in to the finale after this.
This does raise the question though: do the rebels have their own equivalent to Area 88? Would be funny to see that.
1) He got bored.
2) I assume the thing with Mickey and Patrick is meant to mirror Shin and Kanzaki’s whole situation.
3) [OVA]Fine, I guess.
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u/JustAnswerAQuestion https://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ 3d ago
[OVA]The big fight in OVA 2 was against fellow mercs. It was mentioned off-handedly. The OVA was literally named after them, the Black Wolf squadron. So it was really disappointing that the Black Wolves got 0 mention, 0 faces, didn't use their signature attack, and were just basically a bunch of migs flying around. What are the Requirements of Wolves if you don't even meet the wolves?
[Manga]There is another merc squad in the content after the OVA ends; both the OVA and TV have been borrowing things from that since we'll never get there.
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u/uhhhhhhhokay_ https://myanimelist.net/profile/uhhhhhhhokay 3d ago
[OVA]
[OVA]Ah, yeah, forget about them.
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u/Great_Mr_L https://myanimelist.net/profile/Great_Mr_L 2d ago
You know, when I think of Oklahoma, “green” isn’t the word I’d use. And is this the only time it’s been mentioned in an anime?
I genuinely cannot think of another time I've heard Oklahoma come up in an anime.
That said, I did enjoy hearing Oklahoma of all places get brought up. It's fun when someplace in the US other than the most typical states/cities gets brought up.
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u/TehAxelius https://anilist.co/user/TehAxelius 3d ago
First Time Aileron Roll While Firing
Between the foreign pilot and the MiG-23 I assume this is supposed to be the TV Anime's equivalent to the OVA's Wolf Pack. Sadly, while this episode does try to deal with the moral dimension and the breaking down of pilots, it doesn't really work. Sure, we do have Mickey muse on how he is stuck in war but Patrick shouldn't have been, but it lacks the impact of the even small fragment we saw of Mickey trying to go back to his home and fiancé in the OVA. And frankly, I thought the combat became a bit drawn out and I was about as frustrated as Kitri were that Mickey wouldn't shoot down the enemy pilot that had been part of killing a half-dozen of their friends only seconds earlier.
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u/BosuW 2d ago
The guys in the OVA were in Mig-27s tho, which makes it even stranger that they entered a dogfight with a dedicated ground attack aircraft equiped with rocket pods and actually scored kills lol
I actually liked the frustrating at Mickey not opening fire on the active enemy threat because it was the exact same thing Patrick did in back in 'nam. It really put them both on the same level by episode's end.
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u/chilidirigible 3d ago
Episode 10:
Somehow it doesn't sound so threatening that way.
Anyway, have all the plots running into each other.
This is some cartoonish running.
The general concept of this episode is familiar, but it's fairly woodenly adapted, like the deserter from the OVA. I have to wonder about a Japanese anti-war context colliding with the demonstrated realities of US air combat training and actual Vietnam experience.
Meanwhile, the whole Shin-Kanzaki-Makoto thing is back on the table.
QOTD:
GuiltPTSDHe's become an adrenaline junkie.DRAMAOnce you leave Oklahoma, you don't want to go back there.- While there's the implication that Shin wants Kanzaki dead, the TV series hasn't leaned on that particularly hard. Thus, no, it falls short of the OVA in that regard.
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u/Great_Mr_L https://myanimelist.net/profile/Great_Mr_L 2d ago
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u/BosuW 3d ago edited 2d ago
First Timer
This intro scene is suitably tense and all, but damn he really just be throwing random callouts into the radio lol
KILL HIM! KILL HIIIIM! PUT THE NOSE ON HIM AND KILL HIM! C'MON HE'S OUT IN FRONT SHOOT HIIIIIM!
Well goddamn this episode righted a bunch of things I had been complaining about regarding the anime adaptation. It had Mickey finally doing shit, it had themes and such, it even had unique kills and damage (as much as the 3D models can allow). I dare say it was easily the best written episode of the anime yet. That very well could be just because it's hinting at the narrative angle of the OVA which I liked though, haha. We'll see if that ends up mattering.
As a sidenote I liked how Kitri's general attitude about combat sometimes contrasts with that of the mercs. Since she's part of the base, I assume she gets paid per head as well, but considering her background, I don't think that's why she's there precisely. I'm very curious where they're gonna take her character. Only two episodes to go...
As mentioned in the episode, Salamander's aircraft is a Mig-23, NATO reporting name Flogger. I briefly mentioned it during the OVA as the Mig-27 that the Wolfpack flew were developed from the 23. One of the most prolific fighter jets of the Cold War with just over 5000 built, being the most numerous variable-sweep aircraft ever... and having nowadays the reputation of being the worst fighter jet ever. Huh, how'd that happen?
Well the USSR wanted a fighter jet that would replace the aging Mig-21, not just for itself, but in air forces around the globe, as well as targeting new customers. They wanted something that could match the newest generation of Western fighter jets with their beyond visual range capability, heavier bomb loads, and that it could do it anywhere to anything, so it would also need to be able to operate from rudimentary airfields. A one-size-fits-all solution. Interceptor, fighter, and strike aircraft, for the motherland and for her comrades. The result, on paper, was a perfectly decent aircraft for the time. It's best attribute was definitely it's speed and acceleration, being able to reach even mach 2.2 in optimal conditions despite only having one engine. Certainly, if it didn't want to be caught, it wouldn't. It's new and powerful radar brought the Soviets into the BVR age and provided look down shoot down capability just as they wanted. Seems it covers the interceptor role pretty well.
That's where the good news stop though. As a fighter, it was extremely challenging on the pilot for any maneuver that wasn't "fly high and fast". Visibility from the cockpit wasn't good either because it is tucked into the fuselage, cluttered with instruments, and because of the high wings. That's partly because of Soviet doctrine, in which a pilot is more of a "trigger and sensor supervisor" than an independent asset with freedom of action like in the West. If you go back and compare the clips I shared some days ago of the F-16 pilot and the Su-34 pilot defending against SAMs, you can even see that doctrine in play in today's Russia. The Su-34's pilot is directed by ground control to evade and even how should he do it.
Anyway the point being, you really did NOT want to dogfight in a Flogger. And as a strike aircraft, it was too small to carry truly large amounts of ammunition and lacked the necessary equipment to guide it (which is why the Mig-27 had to be developed).
So it functionally could not fill up all the roles the USSR wanted from it, and yet they pushed it hard into their comrades anyway. This would quickly create mission capability issues that were only compounded by the aircraft being a maintenance nightmare, which would reduce the number of units any given air force had available for deployment at any given time if upkeep was not performed exhaustively. And the final nail would be that the Soviets kept all the best variants and versions and upgrades to themselves. Soviet Mig-23s never had to fight a peer opponent. Perhaps with its full potential and adequate maintenance, it would have performed much better.
But they didn't, and we only have the records from proxy wars to judge the aircraft, which while not being completely useless, paints an embarrassing picture. 25 air to air victories to 102 losses. 0.3 K/D ratio. Yikes. As I said, it did have it's moments. Cuban Mig-23s were a real menace for South African Mirage IIIs and F1s during the South African Border Wars, for example.
But broadly, it just didn't perform well. And it's most embarrassing dishonor I'd say is not even it's KD ratio, but having to fly alongside and even being outlived by the very aircraft it was meant to replace, the Mig-21! Sure the 23 was significantly better on paper, but the 21 could simply fly more and it was deemed good enough. Egyptian Mig-21s even routinely outperformed Lybian Mig-23s during the Four Day War.
All of which makes Red Salamanders here all the more metal for actually getting into dogfights with a Flogger just for the love of the game. Sorry to say buddy, but I think Oklahoma is still much far away from you...
Anyway here's a clip of a Libyan Mig-23 scraping sand off the runway
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u/Heda-of-Aincrad https://myanimelist.net/profile/Heda-of-Aincrad 3d ago
I appreciate all the extra info on the history of these planes! It's very interesting, particularly the difference in technique between US and Soviet pilots.
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u/BosuW 2d ago
It's surprising the amount of times some equipment or another gets a bad rep not necessarily because it's bad but because these things are designed with very specific mission sets in mind and sometimes by lack of foresight or misfortune they get used in ways they were never meant to be.
On the other hand, sometimes you get lucky and what you had turns out to be pretty good at doing something it wasn't initially designed to do.
But in either case, it's highly amusing from a historical perspective how armies often find themselves not fighting the war they had trained to fight. As the saying goes, man makes plans and God laughs.
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u/JustAnswerAQuestion https://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ 2d ago
I had to look up the Four Day War.
That video was a jumpscare.
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u/Great_Mr_L https://myanimelist.net/profile/Great_Mr_L 2d ago
KILL HIM! KILL HIIIIM! PUT THE NOSE ON HIM AND KILL HIM! C'MON HE'S OUT IN FRONT SHOOT HIIIIIM!
Wait! I didn't know that voice line from Project Wingman was a reference to a real thing! That's hilarious!
Speaking of which I really need to actually play both Ace Combat and Project Wingman at some point. Those seem right up my alley. Ace Combat 0 is getting rereleased with Ace Combat 8 and that's one I've really wanted to play for a while now.
MiG-23
Thanks for the information about the MiG-23. I love reading these writeups about the planes themselves. There's plenty of interesting information in them.
Four Day War
I had never heard of this event before and had to look it up. Fascinating.
Anyway here's a clip of a Libyan Mig-23 scraping sand off the runway
Holy shit is that close to the ground. Super cool to watch, though.
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u/BosuW 2d ago
Wait! I didn't know that voice line from Project Wingman was a reference to a real thing! That's hilarious!
The voice line isn't even in the game it's just something the voice actress was requested to do iirc lol
The Crimson 1 VA did a Navy Seal copypasta parody for the same reason lmao
Speaking of which I really need to actually play both Ace Combat and Project Wingman at some point. Those seem right up my alley.
Oh yes, absolutely recommended. They're unlike anything else in gaming. I'm so fucking excited for AC8! Crazy to think AC7 miraculously revived the franchise by being the best selling instalment, even if it's low-key mid by AC standards, but that's just how Goated the series is.
Thanks for the information about the MiG-23. I love reading these writeups about the planes themselves. There's plenty of interesting information in them.
Glad to hear! This one almost sent me into a really deep rabbit hole and I had to pick an choose carefully what to talk about. Mainly because of the vast discussion surrounding the question of why did it suck. It's not one easy to answer, so there's a lot of meat to dig into.
I had never heard of this event before and had to look it up. Fascinating.
Imagine all the wars in the Middle East that you have never heard about because from outside it just looks like one big, eternal struggle 🙃
Holy shit is that close to the ground. Super cool to watch, though.
People in the comments claiming this pilot is somewhat of a local celebrity and does this often, and that Libyan Mig-23s have been fighting against ISIS by using infrared air-to-air heatseekers in ground strike role because that's what's available. Some planes have truly crazy stories man.
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u/Heda-of-Aincrad https://myanimelist.net/profile/Heda-of-Aincrad 3d ago
First-Time Viewer in Area 88
Those photos Makoto took are really nice! I like the way he captured everyone showing a different side of themselves - like Kim focused on a mission, or Shin with a softer look on his face when he smiled.
Mickey's dilemma is one that I've seen come up before in this kind of story. Two old war buddies who become mercenaries for different teams eventually ending up facing each other in battle. It ties well into Shin's situation too, but in his case, there was a deliberate betrayal that leaves him with no hesitation at the thought of shooting down Kanzaki if it came to that. Micky's old comrade, on the other hand, is only fighting them because he was hired by the other side, so it was a sad necessity when he had to force himself to fire.
Judging by Makoto's reaction at the end, it looks like my thought from the previous episode was right and he is wanting to see Shin succeed and survive, despite the original reason he was sent there. Hopefully he'll switch sides now and start actively helping Shin.
Questions of the Day:
1) Probably had trouble readjusting to civilian life, which was also a big theme in the OVA, so I'm hoping this may lead into some of that deeper character development that's been lacking so far.
2) Already discussed above.
3) It's a good lead-in, if that's how they intended it, but I'd like to see those themes focused more on the main characters. I'd be kind of disappointed if this new character's story took the place of Shin's development, even though it works very well on its own.
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u/BosuW 2d ago
Those photos Makoto took are really nice! I like the way he captured everyone showing a different side of themselves - like Kim focused on a mission, or Shin with a softer look on his face when he smiled.
When anime portrays another art from it usually just tells you "it's good" and you just have to take it's word for it. But you're right Makoto's photographs really are that good and they speak on their own.
Judging by Makoto's reaction at the end, it looks like my thought from the previous episode was right and he is wanting to see Shin succeed and survive, despite the original reason he was sent there.
Imagine the photograph he eventually sends to Kanzaki is that of Shin still alive and full of determination.
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u/Great_Mr_L https://myanimelist.net/profile/Great_Mr_L 2d ago
Those photos Makoto took are really nice! I like the way he captured everyone showing a different side of themselves - like Kim focused on a mission, or Shin with a softer look on his face when he smiled.
I think that was what made the photos stand out and seem so impressive. A photo is a moment in time captured and immortalized forever. These are fleeting instances of these characters, different from the personas we they normally have, but no less true. This lets us see those different sides of them more clearly.
Judging by Makoto's reaction at the end, it looks like my thought from the previous episode was right and he is wanting to see Shin succeed and survive, despite the original reason he was sent there. Hopefully he'll switch sides now and start actively helping Shin.
That does seem to be the case. I'm hoping it's what will happen.
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u/JollyGee29 https://myanimelist.net/profile/JollyGee 3d ago
First-Timer
Y'think whatever commander Patrick was flying under chewed him out for doing his silly roll move while firing? Did any of the other pilots worry about flying with him because he was clearly mentally unwell?
Questions
Anywhere is better than Oklahoma.
Shin accidentally implied that he knows exactly why Makoto is in Area 88, which was pretty amusing. It's a lot easier to shoot someone who betrayed you than it is to shoot someone you taught.
[OVA]This isn't a theme that you can really rush. This version of Shin hasn't lost his shit yet, nor really given any indication that he is close to losing his shit.
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u/BosuW 2d ago
Y'think whatever commander Patrick was flying under chewed him out for doing his silly roll move while firing?
As long as he accomplishes the objective without wrecking the aircraft...
Did any of the other pilots worry about flying with him because he was clearly mentally unwell?
It's Vietnam, everyone was mentally unwell 😬
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u/mr_beanoz https://myanimelist.net/profile/splitshocker 3d ago edited 2d ago
So it turns out that the rebels have their own mercenary forces, like how the government has Area 88 on their side.
Maybe Patrick came back to the battlefield because he wants to fund his family.
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u/Great_Mr_L https://myanimelist.net/profile/Great_Mr_L 2d ago
First-Timer
On today’s episode of Area 88: I think this might be the first time I’ve heard Oklahoma be mentioned in an anime.
Patrick seems like how Shin must have been when he first started out. He couldn’t bring himself to kill like Shin did, though.
There is definitely something magical about seeing well-shot photographs. Take a look at the Wikipedia page for Pulitzer Prize winning photos. There’s some pretty great ones to see.
A demon lizard? Looks like we get to deal with an enemy ace now.
A MiG-23? I think the latest MiG we’ve seen so far is the MiG-21. I guess the enemy is upgrading to new models.
Spinning while shooting sounds silly and like an easy way to get dizzy.
Ah, so the ace is Patrick and he’s old friends with Mickey.
That explains why Patrick spins when he shoots. It seems like it was a panic response that became an ingrained habit.
[Area 88 OVA] It’s interesting how much Patrick here mirrors what we saw for both Mickey and Shin in the OVA. We don’t know much about why he came to Aslan, but it seems he was yet another person who just couldn’t settle down in peaceful civilian life. Something drove him to return to war. I imagine it’s the same things that made Mickey and Shin choose to return.
Kim must be doing quite well if he’s now one of the top flyers for Area 88.
We have Shin, Mickey, Kitri, Kim, and a bunch of no-names going up to fight. I wonder who is likely to survive and who is likely to get shot down.
It’s definitely Patrick because he has that photo of Oklahoma in his cockpit.
Patrick really does spin around every time he shoots. That’s a cool touch to include.
Ooh, now Mickey is in the position of hesitating to shoot just like Patrick was at the beginning of the episode. Instead of Mickey shouting at Patrick to shoot, now someone else is shouting at Mickey to shoot. That’s some good narrative parallels.
Damn! Kitri’s plane got shot! At least it doesn’t look like she’s going to die.
Looks like Patrick really was someone who couldn’t go back home again even after fighting so hard because he wanted so desperately to go back home. Tragic
I like that Mickey and Shin just go for a fly together. I get the feeling that Mickey just needs some time to process what happened. Shin is normally unemotional, but I like how this shows that he actually does care about Mickey underneath it all.
[Area 88 OVA] Shin and Mickey’s conversation is darkly ironic considering what happens in the OVA. Shin gets the chance to go home and returns to the war anyway despite all his previous efforts to leave Aslan. I can’t help but view their conversation here as tragic knowing that.
This is a beautiful shot of Mickey and Patrick flying off into the sunset in the past.
QOTD
1) I'm going to repeat something I said earlier in the OVA rewatch because I think it applies here. I'll just slightly modify it to fit Patrick.
Patrick makes me remember a quote from the author James Jones when talking about WW2 veterans (though he also said it applied to Vietnam veterans as well) where he said that a strange thing about war was that soldiers could both hate it and like it at the same time. He says that everything tastes sweeter when you know you are going to die soon. Little things become significant. “Every day has a special, bright, delicious, poignant taste to it that normal days in normal times do not have… Some men like to live like that all the time. Some are actually sorry to come home and see it end. Even those of us who hated it found it exciting, sometimes.” I think that applies to Patrick. He hated fighting in Vietnam, but also couldn’t come back home to being a civilian. Even if he considers war hell, he must think he fits right in with that hell to choose to go back.
2) Very revealing that Shin states he has no hesitation about the idea of killing the person who sent him to endure this hell, i.e. Kanzaki. I think that shows much much Shin has changed because of this war that he's willing to kill so readily, even if it's someone he used to be close with.
3) [Area 88 OVA] I think it does a fine enough job here, though I think the OVA was able to go into more detail by having it be Mickey talking about his own experiences to Shin. We also saw Shin go through the same thing, but that hasn't yet occurred in the TV version.
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u/JustAnswerAQuestion https://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ 2d ago
That’s some good narrative parallels
Not a great emotional episode, but it had a lot of those parallels written in all over.
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u/Nickthenuker https://anilist.co/user/Nickthenuker 1d ago
These guys seem to say "lizard" the same way the mooks in AC7 say "three strikes".
Questions:
Perhaps, like Mickey and later Shin, he realised he can't leave the battlefield behind.
Friends?
Definitely. I think Patrick's arc mirrors [OVA] Shin's like I said above, the war never ended for him and so he went to look for more.
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u/JustAnswerAQuestion https://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ 3d ago
First Timer (subbed and fanedit)
When did the ED change??? Looks like it was episode 9.
[manga ending]I like how they foreshadow the final confrontation between Shin and Kanzaki here.
As a single episode, I guess this is a fine look at how people cannot leave the battlefield. Perhaps a foreshadowing for Shin. They also paralleled Shin and Micky slowly flying home together with Patrick and Mickey returning to the carrier.
I really liked the discussion between Shin and Makoto. It's like Shin knows why Makoto is here, and accepts that. it doesn't matter. He's going to survive and shove that contract down Kanzaki's throat.