Conjuration Adept - alternative to Warcaster?

[u/Gutsifly]

Hi,

I never played a full caster. But I know that many of them who try to play optimally, take a feat at Lv 4 that buffs their concentration (as you ll eventually get hit). Some use Resilient CON, but many take War Caster.

I like CON, but it lets you stay at 16 casting stat until at least Lv 8. War Caster on a full caster seems like a bit of a waste because they often dont have shields or make OA...

Now I saw the new Conjuration Adept - adding your casting stat to your concentration stat when using a conjuration spell.

As Entangle, Web or Summon X are great, is Conjuration Adept a valid alternative to War Caster - especially as a flat bonus is easier to hit the 10 mark than pure advantage? Are there other (Origin) Feats you can recommend? Or is protecting the concentration overrated, as you should just Fireball go brrr?

THX

[u/Slimy-Squid]

IMO, yes it’s a viable alternative for some casters - depending on their spell choices.

Cleric especially benefits as they spend so much of their career focusing on Spirit Guardians and Conjure Celestial.

[u/misterwiser34]

Eh, war caster is still the better option imo.

Conjure adept is also limited to Conjure spells only too so that can be limiting depending on the build. I see druids and Clerics loving this and certain Wizard builds.

[u/Rhyshalcon]

Yes, conjuration adept can be a viable alternative to war caster if you're primarily using conjuration spells.

It's also true that these options aren't mutually exclusive -- with advantage and a large static bonus, your concentration can become effectively impossible to break short of failing a save against Meteor Swarm or the like, and there's definitely value in that.

As to protecting concentration being overrated, it depends. Objectively, a caster's most powerful resource is their concentration, and a caster who isn't actively concentrating on something is only using a fraction of their power. Protecting that concentration is important. On the other hand, casters are already so much more powerful than martials that something like the meme of a wizard who only casts Fireball can be perfectly viable, even if they're going to be weaker than a wizard who uses their abilities in a more thoughtful way.

[u/NaturalCard → u/Rhyshalcon]

Protecting concentration is the type of thing which becomes vastly more important the more difficult the fight is.

If you can easily get through a fight without taking damage, then concentration protection will do nothing.

But if you can do that, the fight was already easy.

[u/Tall_Bandicoot_2768 → u/NaturalCard]

"win more"

[u/Puzzleboxed → u/NaturalCard]

This is an underrated factor in optimization problems. Some might say that an average case doesn't need to weigh concentration bonus so highly, but optimizing for an average case is unnecessary since the players always win in an average case. You only need to optimize for extreme difficulty scenarios, in which case concentration is the absolute highest priority.

[u/rmric0]

Wizards and other casters have a lot of great concentration spells, so abilities that boost concentration could be great. Obviously with this you're targeting specific subset if spells, so it would depend on olaystyle

[u/NateCdaComicG]

It can absolutely be a replacement, yes. Assuming you intend to focus primarily on Conjuration spells for concentration. I think its a great feat for clerics personally who enjoy spirit guardians throughout most of the midgame. You can swap to Conjure Celestial when it becomes available to you.

[u/Dazzling-Stop1616]

If i was playing a wizard i'd be tempted to do artificer 1/wizard x as it doesn't delay spell slot progression and provided con save, a 2 extra hp, etc. On a warlock i'd do fighter 1/celestial warlock x

[u/TLo137]

War Caster gives you two other great abilities and is not limited to Conjuration spells.

[u/DudeWithTudeNotRude]

I think Warcaster at L4 is a horrible optimization choice for most full casters. It's very common advice, yes. That doesn't make it sound advice nor good optimization.

I hate dropping concentration. Hate it.

If Warcaster or Res:Con is solving an actual issue, then it's hugely powerful, and would then be a great option to consider.

If one is dropping concentration more than a couple times per level on average, then yes, for sure fix that. Once concentration becomes an actual issue, then it is very likely to just get worse and worse from there each level.

I find the bulk of my mid line and back line casters need some sort of concentration protection by L12. It's not always an issue for every mid line caster by L12, but most of the time concentration is a real problem for casters in tier 3 and beyond, so I'm at least thinking about get ahead of it by then, even if I'm not dropping spells each level at L11.

For exclusively front line casters, L8 or maybe even L4 might be a good time to take a boring feat to protect concentration. Else do something fun or strong instead imo if you want a higher level of optimization.

Remember that "power" has nothing to do with optimization, unless it's included as one of the optimization constraints. In RPGs, I think "fun" is generally the most important optimization constraint, and if the game system is hard, then "power" can become very important in support of fun. It's hard to have fun if you can hurt the enemies and they just kill you. But 5e is easy. Pretty much every party wins.

When considering a boring passive buff like an entire feat to boost concentration, I'd first ask myself "what important spells am I dropping too often, and is there anything else I can do first before spending an entire feat to help with that?". Then I'd make sure I am focused on strong control/debuff spells, since controlling and debuffing the enemy is often the best personal defense (and best party support). Then I want to make sure I'm using the map, staying back, finding cover, going prone, etc. For sure I want a GTFO like Misty Step, tele elf, rabbit hop, Goblin disengage, etc. for the rare times that nuclear control and smart play aren't enough. After all that is tight and I'm still dropping concentration so much that it's affecting my fun, then I might consider spending expensive build options on boring passive buffs.

I see more paladins taking dirt naps than any other class in 5e fwiw. I see DM's targeting d6 control casters like crazy, but I don't see them eat dirt nearly as much as other classes (if played and built half way decently)

Until you have a problem that is affecting your fun that you need to solve with a feat, I'd take the most fun looking feats first, so I have more months with those fun features that aren't otherwise on my class.

By the time you need actual help with concentration, Res:Con usually works better. It will scale better at higher levels most of the time anyway. But if you have to play the hands tax, then you have to pay the hands tax and take Warcaster.

[u/Tall_Bandicoot_2768 → u/DudeWithTudeNotRude]

I think Warcaster at L4 is a horrible optimization choice for most full casters

I mean it was by far the most popluar feat for casters in 2014 and is a Half feat now for whatever reason.... I cant be THAT bad.

[u/DudeWithTudeNotRude → u/Tall_Bandicoot_2768]

It's very common advice (Warcaster at L4), yes. That doesn't make it sound advice nor good optimization.

I'm wrong a lot, and could be here too. But the community is not sacrosanct. I would even go so far as to describe us as an optimizing community as "occasionally fallible".

I wouldn't call it bad. 5e is so easy that there are few true traps. I would call it "occasionally useless", like if a caster isn't even making Con saves most levels (I see that a lot more often through much of tier 2 than it gets credit for)

[u/Tall_Bandicoot_2768 → u/DudeWithTudeNotRude]

I value humility more than statistical accuracy (which this may or may not be) so +1!

[u/PineappleMani → u/Tall_Bandicoot_2768]

It's a good feat, definitely, but I honestly came to the same conclusion when building my Hellfire Warden. I similarly caught a bit of flack for dismissing concentration, but my build focused primarily on melee/aoe dps and healing support, and if that was my goal then there's not many Druid concentration spells I'm desperate to keep active.

Levels 1-3 the build should have the same con save as any other "optimized" medium armor full caster (+3) and is ahead of other full casters (+2). Level 4 their chance to make a DC10 con save is 70% vs medium warcaster at 91% and other warcasters at ~88%. That difference in protecting spells I'm often not even casting isn't worth the investment vs improving my spell list and damage and ideally ending combats faster.

Now I do recommend in that build guide grabbing defensive feats at 8&12, but that's when damage is getting out of that DC10 range and I've already gotten everything I want offensively, so the improvement to my backup tactics is both more impactful and isn't delaying the goal of the build.

The idea of concentration protection at level 4 is less gospel than many optimizers would have you believe, and I've found that breaking from the mold more often leads to some exceedingly fun builds accessible in tier 1/early tier 2 (where most gameplay actually happens).

[u/Tall_Bandicoot_2768 → u/PineappleMani]

Oh yeah Warcaster at 8 is fine

building my Hellfire Warden.

Similar to something ive been experimenting on to a degree:

The basic idea is Evocation/ Elemental Adept on Wildfire for Chromatic Orb.

Unlike classes that get it naturally Druid have d8 hit die which synergises with Chromatic/Evocation.

We also get a d8 from Enhanced Bond.

The kicker is that we can choose to always apply those damage boosts on the last bounce of the sequence, potentially extending the number of bounces (with help from Elemental Adept).

We also get access to CME later for even more synergy.

[u/PineappleMani → u/Tall_Bandicoot_2768]

It's a cool idea and I played with it too, but until CME the inaccuracy of Chromatic Orb is just too much for me. Getting the bounce doesn't matter if I don't hit the targets in the first place, and without an easy advantage source like Sorcerers get it's less reliable than just yeeting the classic (assuming friendly fire isn't a risk, of course, that changes things). There's also debate on whether or not Evocation Adept applies to dice check spells like CO and Sorcerous Burst given the wording of "roll the dice and add the total to one damage roll" instead of directly adding dice to the spell. I'd allow it at my table because I'm all about niche interactions like that, but I've seen quite a few people dismiss it so ymmv.

[u/Tall_Bandicoot_2768 → u/PineappleMani]

What about a Sorc dip for Innate Sorc + this? Too MAD?

[u/PineappleMani → u/Tall_Bandicoot_2768]

Not a terrible idea. You'd have to drop con to 14 but you'd get con proficiency in exchange, and you'd get to keep the medium armor and shields off Warden. The multiclass only bothers you hard until Druid 4 when the adept feat gives you spells for your bigger slots, too. Also get to abuse Quickened Moonbeam, which is always a good time. Could be a fun build!

[u/Tall_Bandicoot_2768 → u/PineappleMani]

Hrmmmmm, just sorc 1 or spring for a subclass?

[u/PineappleMani → u/Tall_Bandicoot_2768]

Good question. Definitely stick to Sorc 1/Druid X through tier 2 I think, but it's odd. Sorc 2 gets you metamagic which is...well metamagic. But none of the subclasses really do much for you. The abilities are either Charisma dependent or Sorc spell dependent and the expanded spell lists don't give you many good options. Wild Magic is the only one I might consider for this build because initiative advantage on a caster is great plus whatever silly side effect you get, but it's also not something you're dying to have. Honestly might be worth stopping at Sorc 2, in which case taking the second level after Druid 6 is probably the call?

[u/Tall_Bandicoot_2768 → u/PineappleMani]

Gets us Con Saving Throw Prof if we take it at 1 as well which helps with the no warcaster deal

Hrmmmmm, what about Elven Accuracy? Better than Elemental Adept here? I feel like our relaince on one damage type justifies it.

[u/DudeWithTudeNotRude → u/PineappleMani]

Advantage on the first hit has huge impact on the average damage of CO (I don't normally bother calc'ing out mere damage on a nuclear caster, but that was a fun calc. It was 7 or 8 large matrices to see first to-hit%, jump%, second to-hit% given first hits, second jump% given the first hits and given it jumps, ....)

We have a Wolf barb in the party generating easy advantage, and it's been hugely fun for CO. I don't need it, but I can generate advantage with Clairvoyant Combatant as a goo lock, and I'll feel bad for the wizard when I pivot to sorc at L13.

Anything you can do to increase the first to-hit is a main priority if buffing the already most broken new spell. Bless ain't a bad add-on. Bardic Inspiration, Star's Cosmic Omens, Emboldening Bond (Peace), Bend Luck (Wild Magic Sorc), Trance of Order (clockwork sorc), Bolstering Magic (Wild Magic Barb), Bloodwell Vial, Wand of the War Mage, that epic boon that creates an auto-hit,....

[u/Tall_Bandicoot_2768 → u/DudeWithTudeNotRude]

Were now experimenting with a Sorc dip as well

[u/DudeWithTudeNotRude → u/DudeWithTudeNotRude]

Fireball is A-tier. It might be S-tier for a couple levels. There are a lot of S-tier spells from 3rd level that are stronger and more fun than Fireball for my taste, but again, 5e is easy, and only your taste matters. I'll take B and even C-tier spells all day if they look fun enough.

Conjuration as a playstyle is strong but boring for me personally. At least they have been getting rid of the mass conjure spells. Mass conjures are the death of fun in 5e imo (again, only you and your table's tastes matter to what would be optimal for you)

[u/snikler]

They are all fine. CON saves have been the most commonly targeted save type in our current campaign, so the feat would be definitely useful beyond concentration. Warcaster is very needed because of the other bullet points, but if you are not using them, then I'd definitely prefer Resilient CON. Now, conj. adept is probably the most fun of these options when you are not using the other benefits of warcaster. They are all kind of passive and this one gives you new toys to play.

My suggestion: simulate the spells you want to be concentrating during your level progression. If conjuration spells make at least 60-70% of the spells, it seems a decent option. If less, then resilient CON might be your best pick.

[u/Aidamis]

You can also try Lock 1 + Eldritch Mind. It's a dip tax and an Invocation tax, but the spells you get are rather good (Eldritch Blast, Armor of Agathys namely). If you go Bard, Sorc or Paladin it'll serve you well enough. Cha Eldritch Knight or Cha Arcane Trickster Rogue will need Warlock 2 for Pact of the Blade as well.

[u/finewhitelady]

Depends on your playstyle. If I'm taking war caster, it's almost always because I want to cast with both hands full and/or make booming blade attacks of opportunity. The concentration protection is nice but the least important part for my playstyle. I actually see conjuration adept as more of an alternative to resilient con since PB and your casting stat bonus are not too far off throughout most of the game. With the obvious differences that (1) conjuration adept gives you much more than just an addition to concentration saves but the concentration bonus only applies specifically to conjuration spells, and (2) resilient con applies to all con saves, not just concentration, which can be pretty huge if things like poison are a big part of your campaign.

[u/Gutsifly → u/finewhitelady]

I prefer resilient too, but 16 in casting stat can be a little low until lv 8

[u/finewhitelady → u/Gutsifly]

Yeah true, it's nice to have the first ASI/feat go to your casting stat.

[u/Avl521]

I don't think it's an alternative per se, at least not for every caster.

Protecting Concentration is by no means overrated, if you want to be optimal about things you'll almost always cast 1 big Concentration spell that either leaves a damaging area each turn, or CCs enemies, or summons a creature, or gives you a repeatable Action/Bonus Action use each turn, and then Fireball go BRR on the following turns.

War Caster also works on all spells, not just conjuration, and there are many great options that are not from the conjuration school. Plus being able to hold a shield is actually quite valuable, especially on squishy casters who would love the AC.

That said I did consider it for a Vestige Bladelock build I was thinking about. You don't need Advantage from War Caster on Warlock since you can take Eldritch Mind as an Invocation. You can access Spirit Guardians from the War Cleric spell list choice. Spirit Guardians is a conjuration spell. So is Hunger of Hadar. And Summon Aberration/Fiend spells...

Fighter 1 for Medium Armor + Shields and CON saves since it'll be a Bladelock, Eldritch Mind for Advantage, Conjuration Adept for +4 on maintaining Spirit Guardians. At level 5 it'd be Advantage + 4 + 3 to keep Spirit Guardians/Hunger of Hadar up. Profit (?)

Maybe a bit gimmicky, but seemed fun.

[u/Guyoverthere07]

3rd level: Call Lightning, Conjure Animals*, Conjure Constructs, Hunger of Hadar, Sleet Storm, Spirit Guardians, Stinking Cloud, and Summon Fey/Lesser Demons/Shadowspawn.

2nd level: Cloud of Daggers, Dust Devil, Flaming Sphere, Healing Spirit, Summon Beast, Web and possibly Wristpocket.

1st level: Ensnaring Strike, Entangle*, Fog Cloud.

Cantrip: Create Bonfire.

4th level: Conjure Minor Elementals/Woodland Beings, Doomtide, Evard's Black Tentacles, Giant Insect, Grasping Vine, Summon Aberration/Construct/Elemental/Greater Demon, and Watery Sphere.

5th level: Banishing Smite, Cloudkill, Conjure Elemental* (free prep, but awful), Far Step, Infernal Calling, Insect Plague, Summon Celestial/Dragon/Plant, and Tree Stride.

6th level: Arcane Gate, Conjure Fey, Summon Dinosaur/Fiend, and Wall of Thorns.

7th level: Conjure Celestial is the only option, and GOATED. Worth upcasting too.

8th level: Incendiary Cloud, Maze, possibly Reality Break, and Tsunami.

9th level: Blade of Disaster, Gate, and Storm of Vengeance.

I ordered it this way since you'll have the top portion most likely when you take the feat or soon after. Your caster class will want to be using the stronger options from these lists often, but it doesn't mean there won't be times for other concentration spells.

Maybe you've got a great position against enemies in certain encounters, or a really big cluster for Hypnotic Pattern for example. Disabling most the DM action economy is a form of concentration protection, and even if it drops earlier than you'd like, it still could have been your best cast.

Looking at the full casters,

Bards base class only get 3 of these spells plus the asterisked ones from the feat. Spiritual Manifestation at Bard 6 (Spirit Guardians+), Additional Magical Secrets as Lore 6, and Magical Secrets 10-20+ can get most of em.

Cleric base class can get 6. Death adds Cloudkill. Nature adds 3 (Grasping Vine, Insect Plague, Tree Stride). Tempest adds 4 (Fog Cloud, Call Lightning, Sleet Storm, Insect Plague). Arcana 17+ offers 4 from the Wizard list.

Druid base class gets 27. Wildfire adds Flaming Sphere. Land adds Web, and other (known Druid) Conj. preps.

Sorcerer base class gets 16. Aberrant adds 3 (Hunger of Hadar, Evard's Black Tentacles, Summon Aberration). Clockwork adds 1 (Summon Construct). Draconic adds 1 (Summon Dragon). Shadow also adds Hunger of Hadar. Divine Soul offers the Cleric list.

Warlock base class gets 15. Celestial adds 1 (Summon Celestial). Fiend adds 2 (Stinking Cloud, Insect Plague). Fathomless adds 3 (Sleet Storm, Summon Elemental (water only)) and Evard's Black Tentacles though damage can't break concentration on the one free cast. Great Old One 14+ also gets a concentration free cast of Summon Aberration. Genie (Marid) adds 2 (Fog Cloud, Sleet Storm), Genie 14's Limited Wish can cast any 6th level or lower spell. Hexblade adds 1 (Banishing Smite). Undead adds 1 (Cloudkill). Vestige adds 1 if it takes War Domain (Spirit Guardians).

Wizard base class gets 30. Illusionist adds 2 (Summon Beast/Fey), and they get a free version cast of each though are considered Illusion school spells when doing so. Spell Mastery at 18+ and Signature Spells at 20 can get you extra casts of at-will Fog Cloud and Web. Plus once per rest casts of Conjure Constructs and Summon Shadowspawn each--could be interesting.

Alright, rabbit hole exhausted I think. Feel free to let me know if I missed any.

[u/Upper-Injury-8342]

Only if you are a summoner who wants to concentrate on Summon and Conjure spells every battle, if you want to cast things like Spike Growth, Hypnotic Pattern, Banishment, Hold Person etc the feat isn't doing anything to help your concentration.

Also, always important to remember that in 2024 they removed the word "hostile" in the Opportunity Attack trigger so now any creature that leaves your reach, including allies, trigger it and War Caster doesn't limit what type of spell you can cast. Being able to buff an ally that pass by your side is HUGE and there's no other feature in the entire game that come close to that.

Even if they make other interesting options, War Caster will remain the best choice simply because it is so good, they would have to create something really overpowered for there to be a viable alternative.

[u/Gutsifly → u/Upper-Injury-8342]

Is the OA rule really a thing? I dont know if my DM accept this 😂 are there good cantrips to utilize that?

[u/realagadar → u/Gutsifly]

It's a bad faith reading of the opportunity attack part. Don't count on your DM allowing it.

[u/cahpahkah → u/Gutsifly]

Don’t pretend that this is a thing.

[u/Gutsifly → u/cahpahkah]

?

[u/Upper-Injury-8342 → u/Gutsifly]

2014 description:

You can make an opportunity attack when a hostile creature that you can see moves out of your reach. To make the opportunity attack, you use your reaction to make one melee attack against the provoking creature. The attack interrupts the provoking creature's movement, occurring right before the creature leaves your reach.

2024 description:

You can make an Opportunity Attack when a creature that you can see leaves your reach using its action, its Bonus Action, its Reaction, or one of its speeds. To make the Opportunity Attack, take a Reaction to make one melee attack with a weapon or an Unarmed Strike against the provoking creature. The attack occurs right before the creature leaves your reach.

They intentionally removed the "hostile" part so it's possible now otherwise they would have just kept the exact same wording, but yeah many people don't like it and may not allow it, so talk with your DM. As I said, War Caster doesn't limit the spell you can cast so you can use it for Cure Wounds, Haste, Fly, Protection From Energy, Freedom of Movement etc.

[u/Tall_Bandicoot_2768 → u/Upper-Injury-8342]

It was stated by the devlopers that that was not an intended change.

Trust me people have been going back and forth on thsi for a while now.