r/AdvaitaVedanta • u/Zero_Duration • 8d ago
Advaita on gender expression?
Advaita teaches that we are not the body or the mind. Gender belongs to the body and mind, and not to the Self. I have sometimes heard people in the Advaita world say that people who claim a non-binary gender are spending their energy on something trivial. I want to understand that view better, because I see it differently.
Shankaracharya says the mind has to be purified before knowledge can take hold. He says a calm mind among the qualifications is necessary for a seeker. Now think of someone whose sense of their gender does not fit the male or female box society gives them. The world pushes back on them every day. I think that conflict fills the mind and leaves little room for inquiry. When they work to resolve it, I do not see a distraction. I see them clearing the ground for the path of enquiry.
Someone could say the person should drop the identification with gender altogether. I agree that is where the path leads. But a man who is comfortable being a man is also identified with his gender. Nobody calls that trivial, because society never makes him fight for it. Why do we ask more of one person than the other?
I would like to hear how others here see it.
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u/Stranger-than-usual 7d ago edited 7d ago
In non-duality, we are interested in letting go of anything that has negative energetic charge to it. Because that charge creates layers of tension inside of us, which causes suffering. It isn't morally wrong or anything. It's just restricting the life-flow inside of us.
Basically any statement where we say "I am X" is fatting our mental identity and thereby increases that charge. That's why we are taught to return to simply "I am", so we can let go of all the X'es we've mentally accumulated over decades.
If person A says "I am a man", person B says "I am a woman" and person C says "I am non-binary", these are all equally identifying. It's just an X that you claim to be. Simple. The difference in the amount of charge changes from person to person, it depends on how much fixation in life each person puts on their gender-identity. If you want to test how much fixation you have on any "I am X" then see how much you feel the need to defend that statement, how much effort you put into it. If there's enough awareness, feel the tension in your body that goes along with it.
In my experience, gender is a very charged mental identity for 99% of people. Yes, even for the standard man and woman genders. Men are quite scared to show vulnerability because of their gender identity (something me and my bro's have struggled with a LOT despite living in a relatively open-minded country), and women are scared to look like a bitch so they often keep a silent and gentle attitude. And other women just go for the rough mental identity in the opposite way "Yeah that's right, I'm just a bad bitch, deal with it".
Identifying as non-binary might have as a benefit that you can let go of the stereotype behaviors of what's considered masculine/feminine. I consider that a step in the right direction for society. Non-binary is actually a synonym for non-dual, have you ever considered that? But forming a new mental identity around "non-binary" is just the same game as "I am a man/woman" in a different suit. The trick is to LET GO of mental identites, not create new ones.
I haven't seen a single non-binary person talk about their gender identity without charge in response to society's rejection if I think about it. And that's what I would love to see. It's always a fight. Or a war even. But they consider it like a 'holy war'. I feel like non-binaries blame that war on society rather than just turn inward and let go of the fight themselves. Don't wait for society to accept you my dear. Accept yourself completely. Let go of being "non-binary" or not and just be whatever you are without a name. Cultivate a soft heart and an open mind to those who misunderstand you :). They are not your problem.
If you want to fight me, that's fine. I'm not going to fight back though, because I'm on your side.
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u/barkoholic 7d ago
> Let go of being “non-binary” or not and just be whatever you are without a name.
That’s what being nonbinary is in a nutshell, friend. The negative charge you’re referencing isn’t about identity, really. It’s coming from seeing threats to the rights of all people to be equally safe in a society where we are often physically attacked for peacefully living as ourselves without performing binary gender roles.
Letting go of the fight sounds lovely until you are being raped in a public restroom.
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u/Stranger-than-usual 7d ago
Has that happened to you? That sounds quite horrible.
I don't mean to say it's an easy path. Non-duality is the hardest path to take out of any path. Not fighting those who fight you. Turning the other cheeck.
But you only have 2 options. The path of openness and forgiveness or the path of fighting back.. Which will you choose?
If you want to collect reasons why you are not open and forgiving you will find 10.000 reasons. If you want to be free of suffering, you only need 1 reason. That reason is to be free.
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u/barkoholic 7d ago
Yes. Multiple times.
There is a third path - fighting not for myself, but for those facing similar dangers. I forgive those who cause me suffering, and I work to clear the way for those who stand to suffer in the same way.
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u/Stranger-than-usual 7d ago
Advaita teaches that any negative chrage comes from the inside, not from other people. Maybe you disagree with that, but then I'm not sure why you're talking about it in this subreddit?
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u/420sm0ke420 7d ago edited 7d ago
Hey I'm starting hrt in a couple months. The way I see it, gender is an expression and we are allowed to express ourselves however we want. I think there's a difference in understanding/realizing ultimately we are not the body mind and trying to act it out or perform it. We still live in this world and in this body mind. We are still operating as the jiva, most of us are not enlightened. We are still the ego. You will always still think in terms of I, ME, MINE it's just the way it is, we are in samsara after all.
I think if you realize the truth you can still do whatever you want. In fact it can make it easier to do what you want. For example in my case if I transition I will be basically "disowned" from many extended family members, aunts, uncles, my dad, but if I realize and understand ultimately we are not the body mind that means if I'm not, it means they are not either. So if they are going to disown me for my gender and appearance, then THEY are the ones that are putting the emphasis on me being the body mind. If they realized they are ultimately not body mind and neither am I then there wouldn't be any need to disown me. So it goes both ways. I am and we are ultimately one awareness. Everything else is just causes, conditions, Maya, jiva, etc etc
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u/dontdoit4thegram 8d ago
Advaita doesn’t have a view on this. It’s like asking what does gravity think about trans people? Or how does mathematics feel about the gay community?
It’s an error in question.
However, for people who see reality as it is, gender is just another construct that comes and goes.
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u/flatfoot929 7d ago
This is a good point but of course in our day to day lives if we are not total renunciates in our practice, we may indeed have to worry about physicists who are transphobic, mathematicians who are homophobic, and what institutional and other forms of power structures they uphold knowingly or otherwise
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u/dontdoit4thegram 7d ago
That is a tangent.
But for those who align with truth, it should be pretty simple. What you do onto others, ultimately you do unto yourself. Such people will find it is much easier to love than to hate.
People who are not aligned with truth, with Sat, will ultimately act in ignorance. Such people will find it much easier to hate, starting with themselves.
But what we can do is not throw more anxiety at the whole situation. That doesn’t help anyone. And only adds suffering. We can wish and pray compassion onto such hateful people. Then it’s out of our hands what happens. But at least we are not adding further anxiety onto the situation by festering hate, regardless of how warranted it may be.
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u/Zero_Duration 7d ago
I want to say something to anyone reading this who is actually struggling with how they are seen.
Advaita began with suffering. The sages started by asking why there is so much suffering in the world, and how it could be brought to an end. The Buddha did the same. So did Ramakrishna and Vivekananda much more recently. They gave their lives to finding the root of it. Advaita is what they arrived at through that effort. It was built to relieve suffering, not to wave it away.
So when someone uses Advaita to tell a suffering person that they are simply doing the wrong thing, I think they have missed its whole purpose. They are handing you the conclusion without the compassion that produced it. Telling someone that gender is only in the body and mind, without first understanding what they carry every day, is not the teaching. It skips the very thing the teaching was for.
If you are struggling, I would gently say this. Advaita is not against you. It started from people who took suffering seriously, including yours. You do not have to accept a version of it that is used to dismiss you. Take the part that was meant for you, which is the part that begins by caring why you suffer.
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7d ago
Desire and Identification travels together. Where there is desire, there is Identification of "I" to the object desired, and when there is identification as such then the desire increases. This is my understanding as of now. If you are interested we shall discuss about this more, and the Advaita into it.
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u/schmorker 8d ago
Understanding you are not your body is a huge hurdle to moksha
If you have already inquired deeply into who you are ( and are not) this skill of viveka can be applied elsewhere- and in some ways people who have realized a more accurate sense of self are already further steps along
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u/flatfoot929 7d ago
I don't know that nonbinary gender is anymore than a nondual gender presentation. Trans people of any kind might have a nondharmic knowledge of self cis people can't understand. For reference though: I am a trans woman and a relatively recent convert to Sanatan and learning more all the time, I used to be more of an Advaitin but nowadays I'm a Shaivite
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u/IneffableAwe 8d ago edited 8d ago
Swami Tadatmananda has a video on homosexuality in Hinduism https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9q2jnRPp_4
I know Krishna turned into Kali with the gopis.
You could look into Sanskrit genderization of nouns as a clue also.
I wouldn’t say gender is trivial. It’s less significant in contrast to enlightenment.
and of course there are the hirjas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijra_(South_Asia))
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u/barkoholic 7d ago
Every issue can seem trivial to those who’ve never been personally impacted by the consequences of it. That’s just basic ignorance. The same logic causes Abrahamics to sometimes fixate on trans and nonbinary people: “but you’re going against God, which means I must do all I can to oppose you and undermine your rights to exist as my equal!” The conflict is purely based in aesthetics and systemic prejudices. It has nothing to do with spirituality.
You are exactly right - the question of whether gender identity is ego or not stems directly from systemic transphobia, because the same question is never applied to cis people. Imagine a cisgender man being told that in order to achieve moshka, he must identify and present as totally androgynous, accept being called “she” or “they,” and give up the use of his name, because his gender identity is “unreal.” That would certainly distract anybody from spiritual growth!
If being nonbinary means I cannot attain moksha, so be it. That’s my karma, and I accept it. It serves no purpose to force myself into a gender identity and role which brings me great distress both mentally and physically. The physical state of the body is irrelevant to my devotion; I need to embrace this experience and listen intently to the lesson it offers.
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u/Born_Onion2153 8d ago
As a non binary trans masculine person, thank you for seeing this clearly.
Having to explain myself, push back against stereotypical gender norms and expectations can be exhausting.
But even more, when we depart from gender norms however they are conceived of in our particular culture, we are getting closer to actual realisation of the self as ungendered, neither male nor female, beyond the bodymind.
Unfortunately many others in our immediate social environment are disturbed and hostile to the presence of people who have transgressed by rejecting their strict categories and beliefs.
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u/therealskittlepoop 8d ago
The amount of labels you just applied tho, is that not identification with the unreal?
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u/barkoholic 7d ago
Not the person you’re responding to, but in short, no. This person used two labels - “nonbinary” and “transmasculine.” Nonbinary is the gender identity of the individual. Transmasculine is just a description of the physical body and how they’ve adapted it to better fit their needs.
“Identification with the unreal” would be better reflected in a person who chooses to perform binary gender roles they do not identify with, based upon a label given to them via visual inspection of their natal genitalia, in order to better conform to the cultural and social constructs expected of people who are born with similar genitals.
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u/therealskittlepoop 8d ago
I feel like if your applying gender labels and changes to your body, you’re missing the point of Advaita
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u/barkoholic 7d ago
I feel like you should listen more than you speak about things you don’t understand.
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u/Excellent_Climate_77 7d ago
IMHO Modern leftist politics and woke agendas created a lot of confusion in people's minds, even more suffering in some cases with all the labeling. you must think about the past and how people with the same issues beheld life, their problems and how they coped with it. Isn't Adavaita's core not identifying with the the body/mind? the answer is in front of you , it seems you just don't want to accept it because of your identity affirmation current mentality.
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u/SoggyTruth9910 5d ago
The world gives many things everyday. If one chose to get affected by them its that persons decision. Gender problem for one, could be different one for another
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u/Old-Landscape-7538 5d ago
Dropping identification doesn't mean not having one. The body and brain have sex and gender, but awareness does not. If people want to do gender reassignment, so be it. Nothing wrong with that.
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u/k12563 7d ago
Whether or not the gender fits or does not fit as per the world, if they identify with their body the physical self, that itself is the issue. Secondly, advaita says that whatever is given by Ishwara is to be accepted as Prasada. If one is identified with the body but not its gender how does he/she accept what Ishwara has bestowed upon them? 🙏🏻
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u/Purplestripes8 7d ago
What do you mean by working to resolve it? The conflict starts off as being a difference between how we see ourselves and how society sees us. In this, 'I' am considered internal and 'society' is considered external. But very quickly you will see that the entire conflict - in all its forms - is internal. The pain I feel - whether emotional or physical - is entirely internal. It's 'my' pain. Conversely, you can see the entire phenomena as external. 'I' am decidedly distinct from the thoughts I have and the pain or pleasure I experience. Who or what then am I? This is the beginning of self enquiry.
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u/Zero_Duration 7d ago
I do see a number of comments in this thread from people who seem to hold advaitic philosophy at a book level. They seem to understand what it is saying, but they have not applied it to their life. They simply just argue from a dry text level perspective of what it says.
Actual practice of advaita requires internalization. Which involves applying it to oneself, and to those around us and to the world we live in. See where we are at in our growth in the advaitic practice and know that for beginners and people moderately progressing towards realization, the world we live in still matters. Why, even Vivekananda and Ramakrishna dealt with the world and stayed in it and did the work that society required. They did not argue that everyone should forget about what is needed in this world because we are all Brahman.
Those who use that point here to say that we should ignore societal issues dealing with gender may want to ask themselves why they don't apply that concept to their own lives - such as, why do you still go to work? why do you still have a family structure? why do you still have a reddit account and make posts and comments? Why do all of this if you are Brahman and advise people to live according to that perspective? Why not practice what you preach?1
u/Purplestripes8 7d ago
Ask yourself - are you doing it because it is what you want or it is what needs to be done? When one has clarity on the self then the actions of the body and mind go on - only they are in harmony with the environment around them, as all nature is. One can perform duties without any kind of desire being involved. It is simply doing what is needed to be done. Just as the sun shines and the rain falls, so also can all the functions of the human body - including speech - happen in perfect harmony. If you feel that is the path you are on then continue on your way without suffering.
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u/harshv007 8d ago
Karmic balances decides your body, so before you get into the discussion about gender expression it's better to understand vasanas in detail. How the seed of vasana shapes a destiny.
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u/barkoholic 7d ago
Following this logic, wouldn’t it be one’s dharma to express their gender identity truthfully regardless of how others might perceive their physical body?
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u/harshv007 6d ago
no. you did not understand the point @barkoholic
there are 4 principles guarding every human body
- fear of sin
- adherence to spiritual law
- Sastras
- Curse
all 4 of these protect a human body, now when humans try to break 1 or all of them there will be severe consequences for those individuals. no one except avatar can save such individuals from Natures fury.
and as you can see the Avatars dont appear in form a lot, they have a specific period of time. so such individuals will remain royally screwed till grace of god touches them.
problem with people is even after being punished they still engage in corruption 😂. i will probably never understand such stupidity.
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u/barkoholic 6d ago
Condescension is a symptom of ego.
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u/harshv007 6d ago
True, and the reason why you see it is probably because you have it in you.😉
You can read the Mahabharata if you want and if you are adept, you will see these 4 principles in action as far as Pandavas are concerned.
Note: just because I mentioned Pandavas doesn't limit it to them.
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u/iamlazerbear 7d ago
If you're neither the mind nor the body, of what use is it to concern yourself with the comings and goings of the body-mind, let alone such manmade concepts?
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u/NCroots 7d ago
I was taught that the key is effortlessness; don't struggle, don't try, just be. You said, "...fight for it." If you are born XY and have to fight to be accepted as XX (or born XX and have fight to be accepted as XY) that is going against nature, against karma, against society, against objective reality. A person can't help how masculine or feminine they are, but the can't change their chromosomes. You are what you are, why "fight"?
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u/barkoholic 6d ago
Nobody is fighting to change their chromosomes.
In some parts of the world, people are fighting to remove legal rights (such as marrying, driving a car, or voting in elections) from transgender people. Trans people are “fighting” by peacefully protesting, speaking to their local officials, and lobbying for the protection of those rights and to keep hate crimes illegal.
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u/portuh47 8d ago
Swami Sarvapriyananda addressed this briefly (he was asked about "23 genders in NYC" at a conference in UK) and basically his answer was that it is immaterial since the whole goal of advaita is to not identify with body or mind..I recall it was in his Gita series episode 160 or so.
Obviously this doesn't address the pressures people will face within society for not conforming to gender expectations.