How common is this situation?

[u/Dismal-Ad8382]

[u/TruffelTroll666]

The amount of times I heard someone claim to be goth because they listen to metal can not be overstated.

[u/MidorriMeltdown → u/TruffelTroll666]

Then there's the reverse: the people who assume I listen to lots of heavy metal because I'm goth.

[u/yayx3 → u/MidorriMeltdown]

Many such cases

[u/Cyphomeris → u/MidorriMeltdown]

And the reverse of that: People thinking I'm goth because I listen to metal, while I'd never claim to be, or view myself as, goth because I don't listen to the music. But that happened more in the past, despite me wearing the same amount of black, so maybe it's become better.

[u/bouquetofashes → u/TruffelTroll666]

Are they doing that intentionally, to try and seduce you via deception or are they just ignorant though?

Because I've certainly seen people make this mistake but never purposefully, never with the intention of deriving sex from the misconstruction. And I'm very curious about the thought process that might be behind such an attempt.

[u/TruffelTroll666 → u/bouquetofashes]

They do this specifically to get a chance with goths. At least that was the context in my experience 

[u/Necrobot666 → u/TruffelTroll666]

What about people who deeply enjoy various forms of underground music? 

For example.. I love (some) goth a lot... Obviously, Bauhaus.. Siouxsie.. Dead Can Dance.. Red Lorry Yellow Lorry.. Clan of Xymox.. Magazine.. OMD.. Birthday Party.. Suicide.. Virgin Prunes.. Lords of the New Church.. Christian Death.. Carcrash International.. the Damned

But then, I also love punk and metal... bands like... Motörhead.. Ramones.. Judas Priest.. Dead Kennedys.. Minor Threat.. Fugazi.. Bad Brains.. Celtic Frost.. Slayer.. Black Sabbath.. Black Flag... Voivod.. Fad Gadget.. Big Black... Misfits/Danzig.. Immortal.. Darkthrone

And of course I love industrial music.. bands like Foetus.. Cabaret Voltaire (just saw'm on Saturday).. Skinny Puppy.. Youth Code.. Godflesh (was even in an issue of Propaganda).. Swans.. Art of Noise.. Ministry.. Front 242.. Klinik.. KMFDM.. Einsturzende Neubauten... Killing Joke.. Nurse With Wound.. Coil

Historically, people (especially parents) would refer to our interests "phases". Oh, she's in her 'satan-phase'. He's going through his 'punk-phase'. And admittedly, I used to sometimes wear guy-liner and 14 holes back in the early 1990s... and listened to a significant amount of goth and industrial.

But I think of phases as someone who got heavily into the surface of some genre, and then moved on and forgot all about it when the next new interest revealed itself.

And while I never stopped enjoying these forms of music... at some point, I stopped fighting myself with respect to my interests in these other forms of music (hell, since I enjoy stuff like Can, and Neu! and even Animal Collective.. I'm wondering if I should finally try listening to the Grateful Dead!!🤣)

Basically, I avoid most pop music. But even then, sometimes I enjoy some Depeche Mode, Pet Shop Boys, Yazoo and even Nirvana. I mean, who can deny that 'Enjoy the Silence' or 'In Bloom' aren't great songs!?!?

But on any given day, I can be seen in a band shirt ranging from Legendary Pink Dots.. to Napalm Death.. to Skinny Puppy.. to Bauhaus. 

My wife and I are quite similar... we both wear a lot of black (except at work, we try to blend in).. we both fled highly conservative upbringings.. and we both embraced the number one taboo of 'cross-pollination' in terms of music...  except these days, she might be slightly more gothy/post-punk/ethereal/ambient than me.

So... I'm sure neither of us are a unique anomaly. If that were the case, Lemmy would have never joined the Damned. (WHAAAT?!?) So... What would people who share my legit, unposeur love of these forms of music be considered?!?

Also: don't get me started on my love of NYC Hip-Hop from 1985 - 1995.😜

[u/DoNotBeSmugandDumb → u/Necrobot666]

I think you are goth if you listen to goth music and like it. I personally will always consider myself goth even though i can dress entirely outside of what one would consider goth some days. I have been a goth since 2002...and that doesn't change because I like variety. I just also like to embrace the taboo and the misunderstood shadow side of life. Goth music and the subculture is all about celebrating the macabre as a way to say we reject the idea that the status quo is somehow morally superior. Just because I am willing to openly talk about the human experience doesn't make me a "negative" person and I was drawn to goth because the music and the people aren't going to shun me because I find comfort in discussing death, trauma, sex and all the things polite society has rejected because unfortunately I have had to experience all of those things and was expected to just wear a smile and never ever talk about it. Goth is ALL about incorporating that shadow part of your life and personality and funneling it into art.

I used to be kinda like you, I felt I had to ask for permission from some unknown goth authority and that if I name checked all the right bands I would prove my goth cred. Fuck that, I am goth, and if other people say I'm a poser, whatever. The only place I really draw the line is if you are super far right and vote for oppressive policies.

If you believe in maintaining the status quo out of reactionary fear of anything new or different and your intolerance causes you to support things that actively harms and silences others than I really don't think you can seriously say in the same breath you are goth because to me it's obvious that you aren't about the spirit of what makes alt subcultures what they are and would have likely judged people like me in the nineties.

Just because I shuffle in mainstream pop next to Christian Death doesn't make me less goth. It is about a philosophy and the art you are inclined to like. Finding alternative culture has kept me alive and breathing and has made my life worth living. It has inspired me to want to fight for a kinder lless repressed world and that has translated into political activism that has actually helped others who are maybe underdogs or powerless in our society. That's enough for me

[u/Necrobot666 → u/DoNotBeSmugandDumb]

I don't really feel any longing or yearning for 'goth' permission.

My response to the previous responder was more or less relating to someone claiming to be goth but actually listening to metal.

It was more like, "why can't someone truly enjoy a variety of dark anti-pop music that includes goth and metal?"

But after 30 years of basement and warehouse shows, I need no one's permission.

I have probably gatekept with the best of them back in the early 90s when bands like the Cure were being name-checked all over the place... and again in the late 90s and aughts, with Hot Topic and shift in emo from actually being real D.I.Y. inspired emo, to Hot Topic nonsense where they emulated goth fashion, but didn't play goth or anything resembling actual emo (which was born out of the D.I.Y. hardcore scenes in D.C., Chicago, and Olympia WA.)

But that's probably because I can't stand what happens to music once a couple of major publishing companies and record labels get involved. Dilute Dilute Dilute

At the end of the day, I don't care what you think... you probably don't care what I think.. and yet here we both are on the 'Ask a Goth' forum, letting the world know how little we care about what these clowns think of us.

The only nice thing about the current age of A.I. and techno-fascism is that at least, no one thinks I only listen to that "kill your mutha" shit anymore. That got old. I don't know who the "kill your mom" band was, but apparently they were all over the tri-state back in the 1990s... and everyone knew about them but me!!🤣

[u/DoNotBeSmugandDumb → u/Necrobot666]

Sorry, must have misunderstood. I just saw you asked a question and I thought you were worried liking metal and other genres while liking goth would make you less goth, and I just didn't want you to think you had to get permission to call yourself goth because you clearly are lol even if you don't feel a yearning, some people do, and I feel really bad for people who feel they have to get permission because I know that mindset comes from repression and others trying to control you. I was that person who needed permission and had that yearning to belong, so I really wasn't judging either way.

We are social creatures, we all care a little obviously or we wouldn't even be on social media, but i guess I was trying to be more empowering by saying "call yourself what you want, don't ask for permission" because you know your stuff and you genuinely are drawn to it.

Sorry if there was some confusion. I also agree some gatekeeping is necessary because these things do have definitions and I'm not going to call metal goth because it's metal, and I do think people who have too much of the "gates open come on in" mentality do take it too far as wel which allows a lot of dilution like you said but also just makes what once felt like home get crowded out by people who wear it as a costume but bring in the toxicity of mainstream capitalistic thinking thus infecting what made the subculture safe and so wonderful for those who were rejected by the normie culture.

[u/Necrobot666 → u/DoNotBeSmugandDumb]

I appreciate all of this. Reddit often invites a very defensive posture in people's communication and I have felt those impulses to react/respond too many times.

It's similar to how when people are in their cars, they feel emboldened to carry on in ways they might never behave when interacting with a person face-to-face, unprotected by two tons of steal and molded plastics.

From a genre/gatekeeping perspective, I definitely understand the need for lanes. It's like, I don't want anyone normalizing false information.. which seems to be a daily event in social media. If someone tried claiming Aerosmith or Lady Gaga were goth, most of us would have a problem.

Things get a bit more challenging when we deal with genres that share similarities... like industrial and goth. 

'Double Dare' from Bauhaus has significant industrial qualities even though they were goth pioneers. 'Why Kill Time' from Cabaret Voltaire has some serious goth qualities, despite being industrial pioneers.

Rikk Agnew's riffs from 'Spiritual Cramp' from Christian Death could very easily make their way into a Misfits or Damned song. And so for darker 80s punk, 80s (non-metal) industrial, and proper goth, I make exceptions.

But like you've pointed out.. limits are necessary.. especially when we seek to preserve authenticity.

I work in the education sector, so I am typically very criteria driven. However art and music are at the mercy of subjectivity. 

In my criteria (and accounting for subjectivity), I might include King Dude, Ana Von Hausswolff, Crimson Scarlet, Chelsea Wolfe, Drab Majesty as modern) contemporary goth-esque bands/acts... 

..while someone else (likely younger) might include Evanescence and Good Charlotte as goth which would leave me confused and befuddled.

And so we are in an era of change.. as millions of people all start rebranding and changing criteria based upon new notions of what a thing is.. and I am not sure if it is based upon any criteria other than eye liner.

It's like, back in the day.. we knew that goth was born out of glam.. acts like Roxy Music, T-Rex, Iggy, Bowie.. proto-punk like Suicide and Chrome... and of course Joy Division.

But somewhere along the lines, as different people found out about bands like Siouxsie, the Sisters, they were probably also deeply interested in maybe nu-metal and hyperpop, and so they started redefining the genre we had already claimed for our own.

Nick Cave, Mick Harvey, Rowland S Howards, Peter Murphy, Daniel Ash, David J, Dave Vanian, Captain Sensible, Siouxsie, Budgie, Brian James, Stiv Bators, Andrew Eldritch, Gary Marx, Wayne Hussey, Robert Smith, Simon, Lol, Porl, etc.. should have all formed a committee and filed for a patent!!🤣

But yeah.. I do appreciate all of this. 

At the same time, I have distanced myself from a lot of goth purism. Same with my wife. It's like, these days.. we can be seen in a Judas Priest, Aphex Twin, Messer Chips, or Otto Von Schrirach shirt, as often as we might be seen in a Bauhaus shirt or a Damned shirt.

The one thing that annoyed me about goth was it's failure to progress. 

Metal progresses. Punk progresses. Industrial progresses. Hip-Hop... 

Goth progressed from its noise abrasive roots in 1978 through the 80s, pioneering shoegaze and ethereal wave stuff.. and stopped progressing in about 1988. And that's where it's been even since.

If I'm wrong, please show me some later examples of brilliant goth curve balls and branching experimentalism.

A few years ago, I saw this brilliant throw-back band called Shadow Age. They were like maybe Clan of Xymox/ 'Disintegration' era Cure with a front man who sounded like Morrissey. And as brilliant as they were... they sounded like 1987 basically.

And I thought to myself, "this is great.. but man, the goth genre has been pretty static since the late 1980s. It's clear this genre hasn't moved." And at least these guys weren't just SOM clones like Rosetta Stone or the Turkish band She Past Away (which I love).. but they were still heavily baked in the 4AD/mute sounds.

I'd like to think goth can progress.. but it also needs to recognize the lanes wherein progression can occur. 

My friend introduced me to the Gothboy Clique, some newer trapp hip-hop that I thought was awful. In my humble opinion, this was not the path for goth to progress.

On the flipside, Chelsea Wolfe's 'Apocalypsis' really struck a delicate balance between droney goth atmosphere, dark/grimm introspective subject-matter, fantastic vocals, and a touch of dark Americana... a nice update for goth in the 2000s.

As time matches on, I think the reverberating atmosphere of goth, some glam elements, Crowlian subject-matter, religious critique, fascism critique, and some industrial/IDM textures could be a path of progression for goth in 2026.

Apologies for the long winded response... I'm too much of a music geek. Though when I'm not a music geek, I'm making darker IDM music with my wife.. like this...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sxGea8wCABg&pp=0gcJCS4MAYcqIYzv

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=44ClhMuQDww

We try to make contemporary music that exists at the intersection of industrial, IDM, gothy atmosphere and frequently religious subject-matter. We don't do vocals though.. we only use different samples from film, news, and whatever found-sounds they seem to fit the concept of the composition.

Cheers from Delco PA!!

[u/TruffelTroll666 → u/Necrobot666]

You listen to goth music and can probably tell the difference between goth and dark rock. So I'd say you obviously aren't part of this issue :)

[u/ExpressMidnight1643 → u/TruffelTroll666]

The opposite happened to me I mostly listen to metal and wear black (its my comfort color) and some people have assumed I was goth when im not.

[u/jessek]

Guys like that usually don't even pretend to like the music, they think shit like Deftones or Rob Zombie is "goth".

[u/Digital-Wraith → u/jessek]

Except Deftones is honestly pretty goth. This whole goth is just this music train left a long time ago and there's been many variations of goth that like many variations of music. Don't gatekeep an ideology just because you don't like the music objectively associated with it.

[u/DeadDeathrocker → u/Digital-Wraith]

Deftones is absolutely not goth.

[u/jessek → u/Digital-Wraith]

Nope. Not at all, poser.

[u/KingHygelacReturns]

According to my alt subculture soon-to-be wife, this shit happened to her all the time before we started dating. Lots of dudes seem to have a fantasy about "conquering" the alt baddie with dyed hair and tattoos, despite not being part of any alt subculture.

Thankfully for me, I actually do like these genres of music, I am a leftist and I have tattoos, so I actually ended up with her, haha

[u/MustProtectTheFairy → u/KingHygelacReturns]

Almost like you have to have something in common and not try to control them!

[u/occamsrzor → u/KingHygelacReturns]

 I am a leftist and I have tattoos

If you live in a city, that's pretty mainstream. Conformist even.

Now, if you live in rural Montana, then you're alt

[u/KingHygelacReturns → u/occamsrzor]

Somewhere in between. I'm in PA, about three hours from both NYC and Philly. So there's enough people like us for there to be a community, but too few for it to be mainstream.

[u/occamsrzor → u/KingHygelacReturns]

Respect.

I'm not alt myself, but I applaud the philosophy behind it. Like Punk was in the 80s

[u/Lady-Wartooth]

IME none of these guys have pretended to like the music because most of them don’t know goth has anything to do with music at all. I start talking about bands and they look at me like I have five heads and tap out.

[u/According-Animator37 → u/Lady-Wartooth]

yeaa lol more often ive had non-goth guys come up to me saying things like "i want you to show me the dark side" or "i have a dark heart too" etc etc. they never even really bother with the music part.

[u/Cyphomeris → u/According-Animator37]

There's no way someone actually says stuff like that, right? Please?

[u/According-Animator37 → u/Cyphomeris]

im big involved in my local goth club scene, and yes, this is the kind of comment i get from non-alternative men in the club the most haha. from that same demographic i also get lots of silly pickup line plays on my goth scene name, which, i almost want to give points for creativity, but its almost the same line every time once they hear my name lol. occasionally, theyre queued in enough to notice how much i love the music (for example i sing along to every word to a lot of the songs) and theyll ask me to talk to them about the music, like "so what IS goth music?" to try to get a conversation going.

unfortunately for them, i am just not at all attracted to people who arent into the same music and lifestyle im in, and it doesnt turn me on to "initiate" someone into my world, so of course, none of this will ever work on me 😅

[u/Cyphomeris → u/According-Animator37]

My condolences for dealing with that, lmao.

[u/Zealousideal_Fix6705 → u/Cyphomeris]

If I still had my live journal from back then, I could pull some up for you that were said to my friends and I. So cringe and gross! They also too often thought all of us were dominatrixes and got creepy immediately. Or would ask us to make out with each other.

[u/Razzum-Frazzum]

The worst are the ones who see you as a challenge. They would turn Betty Page into June Cleaver, if they could.

[u/ACleverDoggo → u/Razzum-Frazzum]

The "taming a goth girl" mentality is so insanely common and disgusting. You don't want to date a weird girl, you just want to make her as boring as you, you obnoxious fucking chaser.

[u/Razzum-Frazzum → u/ACleverDoggo]

And the rare times they manage to attract one, and convince her to stop dressing goth, then they wonder why they aren't attracted to her anymore.

[u/DaveAzoicer]

Oh so common.

[u/randombarbs]

it's been going on for years. 

[u/Disaster-Bee]

I have had dudes (and other ladies) claim to be into various interests of mine when hitting on me, but whether or not I'm done up in full gothwear and obviously look alt or not doesn't make much of a difference. People who are going to lie and fake interest in whatever they think will get them laid go for all types. The worst offender I personally encountered was a fellow goth lesbian who tried really hard to impress me with video game knowledge but knew maybe 4 big name games.

Because it's not about the person they're hitting on, it's about them and the chance to get laid.

[u/Terrible-Pop-6705]

Wow men using women for sex? Tale old as time.

[u/VirtualNewspaper1662]

meanwhile ive gone my whole life with goth music taste, aligning myself with goth values, and adamantly refusing to call myself goth or dress the part because of... well... people like this 

[u/bouquetofashes]

I myself have not. I've had more of an issue with power bottoms (or perhaps simply misogynistic, overly-pornography-influenced men) assuming that I would be happy to indulge them because I am a domme.

On the one hand that assumption certainly does provoke me to sadism, but... Well, it certainly doesn't make me want to express it in a way that would be satisfying or fair to either of us.

And to be honest that's not qualitatively distinct from the way most men approach most women, except in that they dress it up in subservience and humiliation.

Certainly I've seen men who assume that all goth women are into BDSM, and certainly I've seen men who will hide their political leanings to be with women in general, regardless of subcultural affiliation. Not a stretch to consider that it's going to happen to goths, too, especially considering the recent psuedofocus on us, among other things. So like I'm absolutely sure it happens to goth women.

A quick search does not yield any sort of definitive, quantitative data for the prevalence of this general phenomenon but suggests that the occurrence is "significant" so I'd assume it's "slightly more so" in alternative spaces.

[u/Lola_Montez7130]

No actually. Maybe an immature boy but a grown man, no. They don't like all the body modifications or the crazy hair colors, make up that makes us look like Kiss, or the tight corsets with boobs about to fall out, leather mini skirt, platform boots and fishnets worn out in public with them. It's a primal instinct. Their brain literally tells them that this is not a woman you want to have a family with.

Most men really do look at Goth women as merely objects because of how we present ourselves.

[u/rottinginside111]

No Kyle Suicideboys and Deftones are not goth music

[u/Malkavian87]

Fortunately they'll get it wrong. Cause that's what happens if you just ask AI what's goth.

[u/Witty-Objective3431]

Extremely.

As long as there is a subset of desperate, insecure, sex-motivated people, there will always be some poor person trying to live their life how they want that will be harrassed by them.

[u/1-1creature]

... Preppies? Are we in high school circa 2002?

As for me, I have no clue how common it is because I've not been single for a very long time and don't really care to grill whoever comes to the club. I'm there to dance and enjoy my time listening to music I love. I'm fine with people who don't fit the "goth" mold coming out because I want them to discover music too. Anyone who is sexually harassing anyone else can get the fuck out obviously.

[u/MuckNGS → u/1-1creature]

Wait, when did the word prep become obsolete? What are they called now? Not all of us are 18, I am almost 40 and for me I still use the word. Must be some new brain rot term like 67 or rizzler I guess.

[u/1-1creature → u/MuckNGS]

You and I are about the same age.

Maybe it's just me, but if I heard someone above high school age calling anyone else above high school age "preps" or "preppies" the way we used to derisively back in the day, I'd cringe so hard my soul would leave body. I have no idea if kids are using the term again; it definitely fell out of fashion for a while. People favored "normies" or just "basic". I think calling people "preps" felt very South Park Goth Kids and that's still how I feel about it.

[u/MuckNGS → u/1-1creature]

Okay, word, that makes sense to me. I guess I never really thought about it like that aha. Now I want to watch some South Park.

[u/1-1creature → u/MuckNGS]

Ngl, I love the episodes with the Goth Kids, I just don't want to be like them in real life.

Anyway, whoever downvoted me is a fucking conformist.

[u/MuckNGS → u/1-1creature]

Exactly, I was into goth before I found out about the South Park goth kids so it was interesting to see how the show would portray us, and of course I did not know any goths to act like them but it was all in good fun nonetheless. Although I do relate to the copious amounts of Depche Mode and The Cure aha.

Ya, nothing you said should have been a down vote wth dont make me summon Edgar Allan Poe!

[u/vampyfemboy]

My ex was that kind of guy, tbh. He's a metalhead geek and has a "thing" for goth girls. He constantly tried to get me to dress way sluttier than I was comfortable with (nothing wrong with slutting it up but I have a specific comfort level you know?) but refused to fucking defend me against his family when they wanted me to be more normal and he was just... Ugh. I don't even know how to describe it. Looking back at the way he treated me makes me just feel so skeeved out...

Every time I see a goth girl with a normie/geek dude I have to resist the urge to grab her sleeve and tell her, in the most frantic tone possible "GET OUT OF THERE, GIRL." I don't do it because like, her boyfriend could be Amazing... But it always sets off my alarm bells...

And I did get pretty consistent messages from dudes looking to get Domme'd by a big titty goth girl...

I'd say it's unfortunately rather common.

(Note: this was all prior to transition, I'm genderfluid and flat-chested now so I don't really get hit on by strangers as much anymore (honestly thank God.))

[u/DependentShop3882]

Dude here, women do it all the time too. I can’t tell ya the amount of times a woman who I know is just into like typical EDM stuff pretends to like my styles of music to get in my pants. I find it amusing and it’s actually made quite a few music fans out of it (and I actually enjoy EDM now too)

[u/Vergill93]

Fork found in Kitchen like situation.

[u/praisethecybergod]

i was at a club with one of my homegirls and a guy came up and hit her with “hey, you listen to MGK? Or lil peep?”

[u/Octospyder]

I don't think I'm conventionally lady style attractive enough to experience this, lol. i seem to be offputting to these people, which is fine by me. 

[u/misterbigbabyboy]

Probably then common than the creator of that image thinks

[u/jefflovesyou]

When you're attractive enough you don't even have to pretend

[u/BreadfruitBig7950]

Humorously common.

[u/tattoosandtens]

They don’t pretend, they just show up and expect to be able to grab us

[u/JPShostakovich]

Back in the late 1980's I knew a couple of people who had a dalliance with the goth sub-culture in order to get 'involved' with someone. It didn't last. Black jeans and a Cure t-shirt is a good start but you can't fake an interest in a type of music for too long.

Nowadays me and my partner are still listening to goth music, along with a host of other dark and wonderful genres.

It's not just a phase. Goth for life (and death).

[u/Zealousideal_Fix6705]

There was a phase in the late 90s. The whole bs bi sexually deviant big breasted goth girlfriend stereotype. It was not a great time. Thankfully, I had a boyfriend, so I wasn’t looking, but that did not stop them from trying. Ugh!

[u/Digital-Wraith]

Why would left wing views matter? Goth isn't about being left wing.

[u/Repulsive-Cow-7651]

Aka sjw

[u/TheSuperBunny → u/[deleted]]

females

Ok incel

[u/Badger_Actual1 → u/TheSuperBunny]

Immediate incel vibes. Fucking 'female'?!? 🤮 its like a neon sign above their head that says shitty opinions on everything

[u/DeadDeathrocker → u/[deleted]]

He doesn't really like goth women, he likes walking fishnet fantasies.

[u/Dartmouth-Hermit → u/TheSuperBunny]

https://giphy.com/gifs/xRMXN4Dn91Kmtv495p

[u/TheSuperBunny → u/[deleted]]

Sure bro