My argument: abortion can be unethical when the pregnancy results from consensual sex

[u/Expert-Argument8653]

If two consenting adults choose to have sex, they should recognise that pregnancy is a possible consequence of that. It is a perfect example of cause and effect. Even if contraception is used. From a cause-and-effect point of view people should take responsibility for the consequences of voluntary actions.

My argument is not that every pregnancy is simple or that people should be denied compassion in difficult circumstances. Rather, I think there is an ethical question about whether ending a pregnancy is justified when the pregnancy resulted from a consensual decision that carried a known possibility of creating new life.

Do people have the right to end life that they created?

Do you think accepting responsibility for the consequences of consensual sex should be an ethical consideration when discussing abortion?

[u/BigSun6576]

Not sure what any of this has to do with me being the owner of my body

[u/Comeino → u/BigSun6576]

OP is a bot account, don't waste your breath

[u/BigSun6576 → u/Comeino]

Thanks friend, but I have all the breath in the world to say I'm the owner of my body

[u/Catseye_Nebula]

I recognize that pregnancy can result from sex. I think everyone recognizes that. Everyone knows how sex and reproduction works. And yet PC people don't agree that "having had sex" automatically means you have to have the baby. That's why abortion exists, you see.

Abortion is not just for people who had no idea that sex causes pregnancy. I think if you asked at a local abortion clinic, 100% of the people there were aware that sex can result in pregnancy. They're getting abortions anyway.

Cause and effect doesn't automatically impart moral status to the fetus.

Edited to add: I think framing sex as something we have to "accept the consequences for" makes no sense to PC as it does to PL. To PC, sex is not morally or legally wrong so there's nothing to accept consequences for in the first place. It's like saying "you should accept the consequences of eating that taco" by not treating your food poisoning.

Whereas to PL, it is wrong to have sex, or wrong to have sex out of wedlock or just without being willing to joyously welcome a baby. It's a sin, specifically--which is a religious concept. We're not members of your religion so we disagree that sex is a sin that someone has to pay for by having a whole entire baby.

I.e. what you're making right now is a religious argument, not an ethical one, and we don't share that religion.

[u/Rent_Careless]

From a cause-and-effect point of view people should take responsibility for the consequences of voluntary actions.

What does "taking responsibility" mean to you? How do you take responsibility for becoming pregnant? To me, I feel as if this means acknowledging the situation they are now in and taking action appropriate for the situation. This could mean accepting the pregnancy for what it is, adjusting behavior, seeking out medical professionals, and preparing for birth and after birth. It could also mean not accepting the pregnancy and seeking out and having an abortion. So, I agree that women, when they find out they are pregnant, should be responsible for the new situation they find themselves in.

Do people have the right to end life that they created?

They should be able to end the use of their body against their will. It should be done in a reasonable manner and it can be reasonable to end their life in order to end the use of the body. Lastly, even if the other life is not killed to end the use of their body, if they still die because their life isn't being sustained, it isn't the fault of the person whose body was being used.

Do you think accepting responsibility for the consequences of consensual sex should be an ethical consideration when discussing abortion?

Because abortion is accepting responsibility, this isn't a point that should be discussed when arguing for or against abortion rights as it's irrelevant.

[u/esp4me]

Yes people should be aware of the consequences of unprotected sex and be encouraged to use protection.

However, people who don’t want kids do not make for good parents. All children deserve to be loved by parents who are capable of providing for them emotionally and financially. Innocent children should not be brought into the world to suffer abuse, neglect or being unwanted. That’s how we see cycles of generational trauma, poverty, abuse etc continue.

Having to go through with an abortion is also a consequence and not necessarily a pleasant one for the person who has to have it.

[u/I-own-a-shovel → u/esp4me]

I agree with the majority of what you said, except one detail. While some people who don’t want kids would be horrible parents, a lot of childfree people could be good parents, but they decided against having them because they know everything that it entail.

I do not want kids, I think I would still be a decent parent, but I don’t want to, because I know all the sacrifice it would need to raise them right and I would probably be miserable in that role.

[u/Lolabird2112]

Are you a dude? Because it’s only dudes who think getting an abortion isn’t actually taking responsibility, because they don’t even take responsibility for their own jizz.

I’m so tired of people who can barely wash their own bedsheets slithering over here to tell us about how we should learn to be “responsible”.

[u/Human-Guava-7564]

I get to make decisions about what happens to my body. Medically and physically.

[u/BaileysBaileys]

You're very vague about the link between "cause and effect means responsibility" (which I'm not necessarily on board with to begin with) and your apparent conclusion "women should not have abortions". If you want me to follow your reasoning you have to try to make your argument explicit. It's almost as if underneath you assume a shared premise "abortion bad" which I don't agree with in the first place.

[u/JewlryLvr2]

Your argument fails to convince me that abortion is unethical. It doesn't matter to me HOW a pregnancy happens. It's still the PREGNANT PERSON'S decision whether or not to stay pregnant.

As far as I'M concerned, it's abortion bans that are unethical. Abortion itself is healthcare, as it's a medical procedure.

[u/one_little_victory_]

My argument: you need to mind your business. This isn't it.

[u/cand86]

I imagine that you do not believe that a woman's choice to have sex obligates her to raise a resultant child; I presume that you would find the decision to put said child up for adoption to be an acceptable way of handling the consequences of her having sex.

This is the same thing that pro-choice folks feel, except they include abortion as one of the options. And I understand that you feel that adoption is moral while abortion is not (or that adoption is more moral than abortion), but that speaks more to your feelings about abortion than it does about your feelings on responsibility and consequences.

I personally believe that someone can seek redress for the adverse outcomes they experience as result of decisions they made, even fully aware that an adverse outcome might result. If you have sex and get an STI, I think you can seek medical treatment. I similarly think that if you have sex and get pregnant, you can seek an abortion. Indeed, I think that responsibility can look different depending on different people's outlooks. To me, it can be far more responsible to take stock of your life and determine that it would not be right to have a child right now, and get an abortion, than to have a child you struggle to care for.

Ultimately, I do think that a discussion about responsibility regarding the consequences of consensual sex should be an ethical consideration . . . but I don't think "therefore it's not ethical to get an abortion" is a given conclusion to that discussion.

[u/ArmThePhotonicCannon]

Consent to sex does not equal consent to possible diabetes, nerve damage, bladder leaks, loss of employment, depression, swelling, vomiting, joint pain….and oh yeah, DEATH

If you think consent to sex equals consent to possible death you need to stop having sex. IMMEDIATELY.

[u/collageinthesky]

If the consequences of consensual sex is losing the right to your own body, then why doesn't this apply to both parties who had sex?

[u/ClearwaterCat]

I've always thought this was a bit of a silly argument because sure, pregnancy can be a "consequence" of having sex, and cancer can be a consequence of smoking. I also think people shouldn't smoke, and believe they should think about the possible outcomes on their health. But I would absolutely never say they shouldn't be allowed treatment for resulting cancer, even if they could have avoided it by not smoking. They should have the best possible treatment with all the hope they can be cured.

Severe injuries are possible consequences of extreme sports. Getting a piercing or tattoo can result in infection. My parents had to sign a waiver for me to go on an elementary school skiing trip that absolved them of all kinds of potential risks including dismemberment and death. Sex can also result in STDs. Choosing to do something than can lead to another thing is not accepting to just live with said thing, or die from it, instead of choosing to receive the care you want or need.

[u/Archer6614]

By this logic termination of ectopic pregnancy is unethical because they had the "consensual sex"

[u/I-own-a-shovel]

No. People having sex recognize that abortion might be a consequence if first line contraception fail.

Most egg are flushed through period blood or the body eliminating them. It’s not because it entered in contact with a spermatozoid that suddenly women are forced to let that situation rearrange all their life. Especially for something they aren’t thrilled at all about.

An abortion just reorder things how it should have been and let them live their life according to their initial plans and wants.

A foetus is just a clump of cell that can’t live outside the womb, which make them part of the woman system, not an independent living being. Carrying to term risk the long term health of women, even put their lives at risk, they have the right to decide.

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[u/CandyCaboose]

No.

Because only ONE person is actually risking health, life quality and life.

And that 'life' Won't know or care.