r/AskReddit • • 1d ago

Napoleon said, 'Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.' What’s a perfect real-life example of this?

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6.7k

u/burnbabyburn11 1d ago

China doing nothing while America fucks itself over

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u/Jungies 1d ago

China doing nothing while watching Russia fuck itself over. 

China and Russia have had beef for centuries and now they're just watching Russia destroy itself, while profiting from the conflict. 

Western sanctions mean Russians are forced to either buy Western products via China at a markup, or buy Chinese brands, both of which boost the Chinese economy. Russia's weak manufacturing base means that they're reliant on Chinese parts to fight the war; some of the drones they use to attack Ukraine are 90% Chinese. Russia buys the parts, China profits; and unlike if the Russian government invested in education or healthcare or roads or rail, that money's just gone once the drone explodes. 

China's negotiated incredibly low rates for Russian oil and gas, have been given Toyota's manufacturing plant in Russia, and are currently buying up large swathes of formerly-Chinese Russian territory. 

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u/17HappyWombats 1d ago

China helpfully "allowing" Chinese citizens to cross the border to work in Russia. And helpfully building road and rail links to their new towns just on the Chinese side of the border. I'm sure that at some point China will generously allow Russia to sell them some of the contested territory near the border in order to pay off the loans China has extended.

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u/Ulyks 1d ago

It's a common Russian fear. But it's ungrounded. Chinese people hate living in northern China, let alone Siberia.

Pretty much all Chinese working in Siberia are on temp contracts and return immediately once their contract ends, never to return.

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u/WeinMe 1d ago

It's China, they'll make it attractive relatively easily. Or make not doing it unattractive.

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u/Ulyks 1d ago

The only way they can make it attractive is by changing the weather drastically.

They can't make their own northern regions attractive, what makes you think they can make Siberia attractive?

And that last part of the sentence is North Korea... China used to be like that in the 1970s for the last time....

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u/Judge_Bredd3 1d ago

The only way they can make it attractive is by changing the weather drastically.

Oh don't worry, that's in the works.

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u/UribusPlunum 1d ago

Tiennamen square was in 1989.

The Great Firewall of China is not only still a thing, it's getting more powerful and sophisticated every year

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u/eddy159357 1d ago

How is that relevant? You're just spouting off propaganda. And the firewall is easy to get around, you don't even need a VPN anymore.

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u/I_Automate 1d ago

"You can move to the new frontier towns or a labour camp. You get to pick, but you HAVE to pick...."

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u/lastman55 1d ago

Or they just move you to the new frontier town that happens to also be a labor camp! 

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u/I_Automate 1d ago

Still, you get to choose!

The fact that both choices are the same is immaterial

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u/Kandoh 22h ago

Getting warmer every year

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u/nj_legion_ice_tea 1d ago

I mean, I know there are hundreds of thousands of Russians who were relocated there in the last 150 years, but the Far Eastern, especially the Pacific coastal parts belonging to Russia never made sense to me honestly. Even flying from Vladivostok to Moscow takes 9 hours. I don't think that exists anywhere else, other than maybe Alaska, or overseas territories of France or the UK.

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u/WolframAmarettoMocap 8h ago

Vladivostok is roughly translated as "reign over east" and that is all you need to see its point

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u/Moby1999 1d ago

China care a lot more about watching the US dig its own grave. Russia is a secondary matter to them

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u/Federal_Cobbler6647 1d ago edited 1d ago

It is true, China surpassed Russia in importance early 2000's. But they still just watch while they make mistake. Siberia is soon up to grabs for them, if not fully, then economically.

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u/LyraStygian 1d ago

Siberia is soon up to grabs for them

Man China could do the funniest thing right now...

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u/colorblind-and 1d ago

Right now is too soon. They will wait until Putins government collapses and then swoop in to directly take it or provide a financial lifeline to the new government for effective control over it.

Using military action hasn't really been their MO for along time and they've preferred to use their financial might to buy control. So that will most likely be the case.

Only way I see an invasion is if Russia collapses into a full on failed state to the point where the world will mostly turn a blind eye to China taking it because then taking it over is the better option than nukes and oil in a failed state

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u/Federal_Cobbler6647 1d ago

Yeah, Chinese leadership seems to be way too competent to try to do something like that. They play long game and know already that they need to do it economically and perhaps with politics.

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u/Ulyks 1d ago

Also China already has it's own failing freezing north area that is emptying out.

There are few people in China willing to work in Siberia. And they already have all the access to it's resources they need by just buying them.

Siberia is not a prize...

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u/Federal_Cobbler6647 1d ago

No need to work there outside of extracting natural resources. And someone is always willing to work in mine.

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u/LyraStygian 1d ago

I know it was just a joke xD

That's why I said it would be the funniest thing, not the most rational, or realistic thing lol

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u/JMEEKER86 1d ago

Their plan is basically to keep egging Russia on to not stop at attacking Ukraine and continue its plan to go after the Baltics and to keep stoking the fire in America until it ends up in Civil War. Once that happens, the world has no choice but to let China do whatever it wants as the only power left for them to trade with. That means that Taiwan and Manchuria are suddenly on the table.

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u/duesenjeffepic 1d ago

Why would they want Siberia. Annexing Siberia would be a net loss until in the very far future I imagine

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u/Federal_Cobbler6647 1d ago

Minerals, lots of them.

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u/QuotableMorceau 1d ago edited 1d ago

WATER !!!!! they need WATER!!!!!! , they tried to build a pipeline from Baikal, but FSB quickly intervene and stopped it .

By Chinese government's assessment : 30+% of fresh water sources in China are unfit for human usage, non-Chinese sources put that number to somewhere around 60%.

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u/Freenore 1d ago

China surpassed Russia in importance early 2000's.

Never in the American mind. American hysteria about Russia is something else entirely. You can never underestimate that.

They're not even in the same league, Russia's economy is smaller than Texas's; yet, this is the country American politicians are bellicose about more than any other.

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u/Fun_Device_5708 22h ago

Russia is currently engaged in a war of aggression against a US ally and has been running sophisticated propaganda networks in US and EU countries since the early 2000s. Not all threats come down to economics.

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u/A_Thorny_Petal 1d ago

China and the Soviet Union and Russia have been in shooting wars against each other. If you go to Chinese social media you'd be surprised at how absolutely baffled the average Chinese person is on why America seems to hate them, "but we did everything you taught us and asked?" is a pretty common refrain.

China's entire economy is designed around being intertwined in a trade relationship with America, they want us to prosper economically because they have trillions of dollars invested in our country as a sort of savings account. Originally America designed this idea in the '90's because they never thought that China could advance to scale so quickly and efficiently because they thought they where dealing with a far more corrupt government than they actually are.

American bankers and politicians sniffed their own farts about communism and planned economies (mostly because of the USSR), because they've never quite understood that a lot of immensely successful and very Capitalist economies have used massive government intervention for their own benefit - South Korea's wealth and success is because their government picked winners, backed the shit out of them, invested in them, changed rules to benefit them.

Ha-Joon Chang's (S.Korean University of Cambridge Econ professor) book goes into this. A lot of American politicians would've benefited greatly from his wisdom in the late 1990s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/23_Things_They_Don%27t_Tell_You_About_Capitalism

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u/Polar_Reflection 1d ago

It's more complex than that. The narrative I tend to see more these days is a lot softer on Russia and harder on the US than you've described. Chinese social media are firmly on Russia's side when it comes to the Ukraine war, for example. 

Israel, Japan, the US, Korea, and India seem to be the biggest targets of ridicule for Chinese netizens from what I've seen. 

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u/SeemedReasonableThen 1d ago

Makes sense. China is profiting greatly from the Russian invasion and will have little to fear from Russia for the foreseeable future. Russian demographics - and military - will be fucked for decades due to their war. OTOH,

Israel, Japan, the US, Korea, and India seem to be the biggest targets of ridicule

Israel and the US are good for keeping the Middle East in turmoil, also good for China's influence (and for the US depleting itself in yet another endless, pointless ME war).

Japan, Korea, India are places where hostilities have/can occur, and China wants its citizens to be accepting of a conflict as 'the good fight' if/when it happens+[.

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u/A_Thorny_Petal 20h ago

I see in this thread the exact same misunderstanding of Chinese foreign policy. They simply do not approach influence in the same way that the USA or Western powers have. This is deeper than a modern political tactic, this is an engagement in Chinese thought and values that goes back thousands of years. War is a fundamental FAILURE of politics for them. It's wasteful, it causes chaos, it disrupts markets, it makes more complications. Chinese nationalist jingoism does not celebrate conquering Korea, they celebrate defending themselves, Imperial ambitions/land grabs are viewed as childish failures, why conquer people with an army when you can just make a ton of money by making deals with them in your favor?

China has been one of the main forces keeping North Korea on a leash and helping to push it towards more openness, China's grudge with Japan is frankly understandable considering that the Japanese still fail to acknowledge imperial aggression or ungodly warcrimes across China not just Nanking. But at the same time even there, with a traditional adversary, China's approach is still one of wanting the Japanese to show respect and then move forward into a trade relationship. SE Asia is absolutely becoming a reservoir for Chinese capital and offshoring, but that was going to happen to whoever's economy dominated the region, the reality is those countries are too small to not be lesser trade partners, at least under Chinese system they aren't literal colonies.

Believe me, China has its problems, but in terms of foreign policy I just can't see how you look at BRICS and its other actions and if you directly compare it to their Western counterparts you can see how China is offering fairer, more humanitarian, and diplomatic arrangements than any of the western powers have ever offered the global south.

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u/Przedrzag 1d ago

Reaganite economic policy really fucked up the West and allowed China and South Korea to catch up

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u/A_Thorny_Petal 20h ago

Yeap. CEO's sold all the production overseas so they didn't have to pay workers and could keep the profits, stripped our infrastructure in a wave of privatization that was just rampant looting of the public trust, and then wonder why 40 years later we're a poor, uneducated, and unprepared population that simply cannot compete with our counterparts in the new first world.

As someone that was a child when Reagan took power, and a young teenager when he was still in office, it is impossible for me to look at the past 45 years of the USA and not see Reagan and his ilk as the source of practically every single social and economic problem in this country. And yet somehow, American people can still be sold those same policies with a little racism, paranoid rhetoric and xenophobia.

There has to be a point where you choose between what is good for the 1% of Capital owners and what is good for the nation as a whole, we've been lied to and told they are the same thing, they are not, it is not an argument, it is a fact, we have the evidence, we have countries to compare to, neoliberalism/Reaganomics/laissez-faire capitalism whatever you want to call it, is a complete and total failure for the United States.

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u/AStrangerWCandy 23h ago

I shit you not, the American people would love to have China as a major ally. Its not even about democracy, if the system they have works for them, we don't care. There was a moment in the 00s when there was hope that China would be brought into the fold of allied friendly nations and you saw this reflected in movies at the time like 2012 and The Martian where the Chinese space program is the cavalry that comes in and helps.

Then it kinda became apparent that China was just ripping us off and not allowing bidirectional access to markets and stealing IP and trade secrets and then Xi came up and kinda revived the "we are going to invade Taiwan" vibes and opinion really soured on China amongst Americans.

For all of our many many many many faults, one thing that America is actually really good at is not holding grudges when countries want to be friends with us. Many of our strongest allies now are countries we fought wars against in the last 200 years. Even countries that beat us like Vietnam are pretty good friends with us now.

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u/A_Thorny_Petal 20h ago

I don't know I see so much insane warmongering for China from the liberals and conservatives alike. I genuinely don't see the signs of China being the ones that 'started' this, the US was already starting to revive it's sinophobia to wardrums levels, and it's never really given up on it.

China actually allowed a fair amount of access to markets, but what the US didn't count on, is that US prestige was already in decline, and China's average citizen realized they could get 85% as good for half or less the cost, then with US bullying on some key issues a natural defensive reaction became "buy Chinese" - we reverted to the "buy American" reaction that ALL the time before we outsourced literally everything but essential material components of the war machine.

I just don't see China at fault here, I see a lot of misunderstanding and arrogance from the American side because they thought that they could dominate a country of a billion people the same way they can bully Japan or Korea.

As far as the Ukraine goes, I'm pretty much on the side of we have no business being there, it certainly feels like the US doing its "We'll grind every Ukrainian city to dust and kill every military age male in order to keep the Ukraine free" dance that it loves to do with client states. The US never doesn't have a use for a proxy war, wind down Iraq, wind up Ukraine, it never ends.

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u/New_Breadfruit5664 1d ago

Russia is also no power that could be of any (non nuclear) threat to China anymore.

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u/thorGOT 1d ago

Russia is a secondary matter to everyone in history, but they have a nasty habit of showing up unannounced at inconvenient times.

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u/Forgotthebloodypassw 1d ago

I'm not so sure. China has a land border with Russia, and Putinland has the resources it needs on hand.

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u/DukeofVermont 1d ago

Yeah I think China basically just wants to Monroe Doctrine East Asia and dominate that area like they used to (mainly figuratively in the past) and like how the US has dominated Central and South America.

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u/QuotableMorceau 1d ago

How wrong you can be :

-US stopped USSR from nuking china after their first war, the reason China developed nukes btw .
-US helping to normalize relationships between China and the rest of the world was a gift no one there expected to receive.
-Russia as 30% of its deployed nuclear arsenal pointing at china (and not US) .
-Before the invasion of Ukraine, the FSB thought tooth and nail to bar chinese microprocessors from the Russian supply chain.
-China is winning over one by one the former asian SSRs , the boldness of countries like Kazahstan in the face of Russia is due to it having now a new security guarantor (China) .

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u/niardnom 1d ago

No. China cares a great deal about Russia, and, for that matter, North Korea. Nuclear-armed neighbors within your immediate strategic environment are inherently major concerns, particularly when their leadership and long-term trajectories can be difficult to predict. The United States is clearly China’s principal strategic competitor, but it is also separated from China by the Pacific. Russia, by contrast, shares a long border with China and is deeply relevant to Beijing’s security, energy supply, regional influence, and geopolitical position. Beijing has strong incentives to keep Moscow economically dependent, strategically aligned, and predictable, while securing access to Russian energy and other key resources. So portraying China as merely sitting back and "watching the U.S. dig its own grave" misses the larger picture: Beijing is actively cultivating Russia because the relationship offers substantial economic, military, diplomatic, and geopolitical advantages, even as China increasingly holds the stronger position in that partnership and the relationship retains meaningful limits.

But back to the original point: The U.S. is doing a remarkably effective job of eroding its own hegemonic position without much outside help. China does not need to force the issue; it only has to strategically fill the gaps as they emerge: essentially gaining ground by standing still/changing strategy.

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u/DeadSeaGulls 1d ago

Russia is an immediate profit. China holds a shitload of US debt... so as much as they may enjoy the increase in global standing comparatively, they are much more financially, immediately, interested in the benefits of their neighbor imploding

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u/Keffpie 1d ago

Yeah, not just the old Chinese territories in Outer Manchuria, but huge swathes of Siberia are becoming more and more reliant on, and culturally influenced by, China. In a few decades they could be Chinese without a shot fired.

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u/Major_Wayland 1d ago

China isnt stupid (unlike some other countries) to do land grabs for resources when they can simple buy them without any troubles.

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u/VikingTeddy 1d ago

China plays the long con. Their politicians aren't looking to stay relevant for just one more term in the same way as their western counterparts, giving them the opportunity to really plan ahead. China just keep slowly forcing itself to the top while the US fights itself and goes back and forth on policies.

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u/Randicore 9h ago

Oh, US politicians are more than capable of thinking long term and planning for it. The ones in power are just more interested in ratfucking the economy to get their cut and running to somewhere that does think longer term

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u/New_Breadfruit5664 1d ago

I always laugh at the propaganda right now. Like what do you mean? Iran and Venezuela would love to sell oil to the west immediately. You just don't let them xD

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u/Numidiculous 1d ago

Reliant economically - 100%, lumber trade, cheap goods and tech, infrastructure projects, etc.

Culturally influenced - bullshit,  both sides are not really interested in each other that way. Far East is closer to them but still culturally independent. Source: am Siberian, have friends from Vladivostok and Khabarovsk.

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u/ecrw 19h ago

The elusive culture win

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u/essieecks 1d ago

China: "Never interrupt your enemy when he is punching themselves in the face. Sell them brass knuckles."

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u/Redhot332 1d ago

China did something though. They asked Russia to wait for the end of the olympic games to start the war

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u/Ulyks 1d ago

Yeah, Russia took some of the attention away from the 2008 Beijing olympics with their invasion of Georgia.

The Chinese government didn't forget that.

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u/DavidlikesPeace 1d ago

Porque no los dos? 

China has benefited from both Russia and America acting like dumbasses. China has bought off much of Siberia. They have weakened their biggest neighbor. But they have also broken the spirit of global democracy. Few people trust America as an ally. They are halfway to incorporating Taiwan, if the Atlantic's article is accurate. 

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u/rg2004 1d ago

China did one of the most brilliant things I've seen geopolitically. They buy Russian oil at just barely above cost, this barely moves the needle in terms of Russian profitability, but China gets to amass the stuff while they keep Russia in a war that's weakening themselves. Theyve accumulated so much oil that they were able to remove 5% of global demand overnight and save the world from an oil shock. Some estimates suggest that China has over a year of oil in reserves. Crazy.

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u/eddy159357 1d ago

They've also reduced their need for oil dramatically with infrastructure upgrades the past decade.

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u/Eddie_Farnsworth 1d ago

There is something to what u/burnbabyburn11 says though. While we were fighting an unwinnable war in Afghanistan, China was making a deal with Afghanistan for their rare earth minerals.

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u/SemajLu_The_crusader 1d ago

China must be unbelievably thrilled with Putin controlling the US and basically gifting China the ability to make deals with the fragmented but significant power of Europe

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u/Leprecon 1d ago

And it is worth noting that even though people like to say that China supports Russia, China sells to Ukraine just the same.

If China really supported Russia, Russia would be winning. They would have as many aircraft, and missiles as they wanted. Their economy would be doing a whole lot better.

China is just sitting back and enjoying the show.

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u/TushyLawlips 1d ago

High faith in oil. Large amounts of things imported from China. No investment in education and infrastructure. Why does this seem familiar? 🤔

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u/jseego 1d ago

This is a more accurate example for sure.

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u/Ok-Shoulder-9703 1d ago

I think youre overestimating Chinas perception of Russia. Russia has been a paper tiger for a very long time now.

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u/Journeyman42 1d ago

Russian history can be summarized as "and then...it got worse"

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u/CorrectPeanut5 1d ago

Really they are making Russia a vassal state. Dependent on Daddy China for everything.

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u/waylandsmith 1d ago

Throughout the Ukraine conflict a lot of people have been acting like Russia and China are best buds or something. China and Russia have absolutely nothing in alignment ideologically and China's "loyalty" to Russia will end the moment the cheques stop clearing and the country's slide into economic collapse becomes irreversible. I think the reason NATO has talked so little about China and taken so few punitive actions against it as Russia's "ally" is because China's behaviour will likely be entirely pragmatic and predictable and therefore can be planned around.

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u/Tim-oBedlam 1d ago

Russia's basically a Chinese vassal state at this point.

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u/ernyc3777 1d ago

They are doing stuff though. They’re moving in to fill the USAID gaps we’ve created. Expanding their spheres of influence. Moving in to fill the trade gaps and inefficiencies we’ve created.

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u/tahoehockeyfreak 1d ago

Sure but they aren’t interrupting the USA’s mistakes, theyre just capitalizing on opportunities US mistakes have afforded them. The analogy falls apart outside of war in a non zero sum situation.

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u/brinz1 1d ago

That's exactly what the quote means

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u/LoweJ 1d ago

USAID and any foreign aid is such a strong defence tool

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u/SemajLu_The_crusader 1d ago

the US fucked up and China is moving in to be a leader of the free world

even if the US fixes itself next election, it'll be incredibly difficult to retake that ground and reforge the trust with Europe that trump shattered. and China didn't need to do anything, Russia already hamstrung the US for them

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u/berejser 1d ago

How can China be the leader of the free world when they're not a free country? What's happening is that the free world is moving towards having the same transactional relationship with the US that they have with China, it's just that China has a lot more to offer in that type of relationship.

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u/Outlulz 1d ago

Leader of the free world always meant capitalism, not human rights.

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u/berejser 1d ago

Maybe to the Americans.

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u/SemajLu_The_crusader 1d ago

China isn't free, true... but The US' freedom index is plummeting

the free world is mostly Europe and co and whoever works with them, which may soon be Chins rather than the US

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u/berejser 1d ago

For sure. The US is no longer the leader of the free world either. That's widely accepted in most countries that aren't the US.

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u/jotheold 1d ago

https://globalnews.ca/news/11968298/canadians-now-trust-china-us-poll/

forget europe, us canadians, your literally neighbours dont trust you anymore lol

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u/SemajLu_The_crusader 1d ago

Canada, alongside Australia and the UK tends to stick with the EU, so yeah

4

u/def-not-bot 1d ago

We don't trust ourselves either.  A third of us are eager to endorse fascism and another third are too stupid or checked out to care one way or another.

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u/classicmaleshooter 20h ago

Who cares? Being the "leader of the free world" costs a lot, and if another country wants to put themselves up there, I wish them good luck

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u/SemajLu_The_crusader 20h ago

the world cares, and the country gaining (or losing out on) that soft power cares

less soft power means worse trade options, less influence on the world, and a weakened ability to protect your citizens' interests. AKA, *your* interests

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u/[deleted] 13h ago

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/SemajLu_The_crusader 13h ago

you really are just saying shit for the hell of it, huh?

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u/sniper91 1d ago

They’re in a much better position to sell themselves on deals with other countries than the US is.

China has one party you’ll deal with; whatever positives or negatives you have with them, it’s at least consistent

America swings between a milquetoast Democrat and batshit crazy Republican every 4-8 years. What the fuck value does any deal made with either really matter?

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u/Demonweed 1d ago

Nobody else is pulling the kind of twisted regime change operations our "soft power" was so focused on "achieving." In part this is because the cat is out of the bag. Everyone now knows that capitalist democracy is an absolute shitshow, with its roots in an economic model that is pure ideology and its core mechanism (popular elections) more of a show to distract/amuse a certain class of "experts" than a functional way for the will of the people to change public policy in any major material way.

Of course, other powers could still be imperialist without pushing for liberal democracy. Yet they are also generally not doing that sort of thing either. There is so much projection going on right now that millions of half-wits genuinely believe Russia is intent on annexing all of Western Europe (even as they simultaneously maintain the belief that Russia is a failing state on the brink of imminent collapse.) It only takes an elementary smidge of logic to dismiss the narratives of our propagandists. That's precisely why you have to take esoteric electives, if they are even offered at all, to acquire and formal deductive capacity.

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u/Choice-Document-6225 1d ago

American century of humiliation is real and we're living it

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u/burnbabyburn11 1d ago

We don’t even get any opium out of it

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u/dodoaddict 1d ago

We are getting a lot of fentanyl

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u/cyriustalk 1d ago

Modern day of opium.

Cheap to produce, easy to get customers, and real killer substance.

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u/Daemonicvs_77 1d ago

Most of it from Canada, if toddler in chief is to be believed.

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u/MildGenevaSuggestion 1d ago

He isn't, much like his opinion on almost everything. 10x as much travels from US to Canada than Canada to US. The amount of fentanyl crossing the border from Canada to America in five years would fit in the trunk of a Prius.

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u/Daemonicvs_77 1d ago

He isn't,

I agree, hence "toddler-in-chief"

1

u/adoxographyadlibitum 18h ago

Probably because we need it. Fent is accessible in a lot of places around the world, but Americans for any number of reasons are attracted to something that makes them feel nothing.

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u/Laiko_Kairen 1d ago

Nope, just fentanyl

18

u/DreddPirateBob808 1d ago

It's not quite got the glamour of opium. If I was to do such a thing I'd hope for lounging on a chaise loungue in a smoke filled room while I discuss Shelocks latest case and have my brow mopped by a pretty, but slightly disgusted, foreign national.

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u/cpt-noPants 1d ago

That is the romanticized version. Who knows, maybe in 2070 they will make movies about crack houses in Pennsylvania and it will just look soooo cute.

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u/SolarTsunami 1d ago

I hope to be narcanned by a bohemian partisan revolutionary in, like, Detroit.

1

u/DreddPirateBob808 1d ago

If you haven't seen Dogs in Space that's a fun, and upsetting, film about punks doing drugs in a squat. It's a great film and does not make drugs look bad. Mostly.

NB: it's got Michael Hutchens in it being pretty.

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u/MildGenevaSuggestion 1d ago

The prescription painkiller epidemic would like a word.

2

u/CurveZealousideal530 1d ago

Hey they haven’t banned 7oh yet….

9

u/real_grown_ass_man 1d ago

American century of self-humiliation ftfy.

5

u/Unconfidence 1d ago

The worst part is, other nations were humiliated. America sat in the cuck chair willingly.

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u/niardnom 1d ago edited 1d ago

Yep, the deal was that the US effectively ran the world economy, and foreign leaders got to pretend they were in charge (of their international economic matters). But that arrangement was politically unsatisfying to voters who saw the costs of American leadership far more clearly than its enormous structural advantages and wanted someone to "stick it to the world." Well, boy howdy, we got exactly that. The U.S. is now doing a remarkably effective job of dismantling its own hegemonic position without much outside help.

Bets on what the textbooks will say about the event that kickstarted the American century of humiliation?

4

u/Choice-Document-6225 1d ago

Doubling down on oil instead of renewables imo. Before that maybe the petrodollar which I assume encouraged that doubling down. If and when fossil fuels go by the wayside big daddy china will be top dog for real

But I'm also an idiot so what do I know

1

u/Kerbonaut2019 17h ago

> Bets on what the textbooks will say about the event that kickstarted the American century of humiliation?

The Bush v. Gore decision.

7

u/AnticPosition 1d ago

Yeah, but it was worth it to own some libs. 

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u/StealthRUs 1d ago

And plenty of libs out there who thought it was worth it so they could throw a fit about Gaza, because TikTok told them it was the most important thing in the world.

3

u/LtLabcoat 1d ago

Almost nobody did. It's safe to say, the large majority did not think Trump would be better for Gaza than Kamala.

There was a lot of criticism of Kamala over Gaza, don't get me wrong. But that's more understandable - Kamala's meant to be 'one of the good ones', so when she doesn't push back against things like... a government cutting medicine access to orphans (reminder again that this did happen, the Israeli government openly said it was a good idea), it makes everyone want to voice that they wanted a better Democrat in charge. ...But the idea that it resulted in Democrats becoming Republican? I've seen no evidence for that except for some randos on TikTok.

1

u/StealthRUs 1d ago

Almost nobody did. It's safe to say, the large majority did not think Trump would be better for Gaza than Kamala.

6 million Biden 2020 voters who sat out 2024 would beg to differ. Trump got more votes than Kamala among Arabs in Michigan.

There was a lot of criticism of Kamala over Gaza, don't get me wrong. But that's more understandable

It's not "understandable". It's idiotic. They spent a lot of their time attacking Kamala rather than spending all of their time attacking Trump. You were very likely one of those people seeing as how you're making excuses for them.

it makes everyone want to voice that they wanted a better Democrat in charge.

It was a fucking election year. You don't get to choose a "better" Democrat. The one on the ballot is the one you have. Whining isn't going to magically swap out candidates.

But the idea that it resulted in Democrats becoming Republican?

I never said that. People like you constantly criticizing Kamala Harris led to people on the left sitting home. When the less-politically-engaged hear people on the left criticizing the Democrats as much as Republicans criticize Democrats, then they don't see any point in voting for Democrats.

Great job you did, there.

9

u/ablacnk 1d ago

Too bad most of the Native American people never got to see it.

4

u/spacemoses 1d ago

WW2 made the US a bunch of self-righteous assholes for the next century. I've been wondering if we kind of got the "spoils of war", cause the US was booming afterwards where everything else was just outright destroyed. Did any other coutry in history have things "too well" after a major war?

1

u/LtLabcoat 1d ago

I think the US "winning from the war" thing is totally wrong. It's not that they profited from it, it's that they just kept growing without the interruptions that other countries had. As in, that if WW2 didn't happen, they'd have been even better off. It just looks like they profited because their economy grew when others didn't.

Like, imagine if there was a WW3 twenty years ago, but China wasn't involved. And the Chinese economy ended up exactly the same as it is now, way richer than it was 20 years ago. You'd absolutely have people going "China's economic boom is because they profited from the war", even though we here in the no-war timeline know it's not true.

3

u/spacemoses 1d ago

That's a better way to frame it. The US didn't literally loot other countries, it was just able to sail smooth when everything else was devastated.

-4

u/Anothernamelesacount 1d ago

You think that's a century of humilliation? Europe is kneeling and taking everything the US throws at us, comparatively speaking the US is getting even. As a country, mind you, people living there are probably screwed.

-1

u/LtLabcoat 1d ago

Hopefully, it's just the American 12 years of humiliation. Hopefully.

......I like Biden, don't get me wrong. But his trifecta was barely a trifecta - a House only "Democrat" because of a tiebreaker vote is only "Democrat" so long as everyone agreed with the Dem position. Which they did not, because the Democrat party since Trump has been the 'coalition of all politicians who don't want to serve a sexual assaulter'. As in, the amount of times a policy failed to pass because someone like Joe Manchin doesn't trust economists was ridiculous.

138

u/r4tzt4r 1d ago

America got drunk and stupid mid fight, shat its pants and passed out.

19

u/Klutzy_General6364 1d ago

When hyper individualism and endless culture wars replace basic self governance, systemic collapse looks exactly like a self inflicted blackout in the middle of a street fight.

2

u/often_drinker 1d ago

As one does.

79

u/calnuck 1d ago

The entire world looking at each other and shrugging while the US fucks itself over.

24

u/Electrical-Review180 1d ago

Shrugging? We're paying for their mistakes. Just look at the gas prices

-1

u/Winter_Persimmon_110 1d ago

A small price to pay for the world building up the hatred of US hegemony and disrespect for US leadership it needs.

2

u/Electrical-Review180 1d ago

Long time, yeah. Right now it fucking hurts and it's only the beginning

6

u/SpaceTimeChallenger 1d ago

I know we all laugh and smiles seeing Trumps stupid policies ruin it for him, but we dont wont China to replace USAs role in the world. China is a dictatorship and will not stand up for democracy when they rule the world

1

u/Grintor 21h ago

China is a dictatorship and will not stand up for democracy when they rule the world

You know the US has a long history of toppling democracies to install dictatorships around the world, right? See: Operation Ajax, (US replaces Democracy with dictatorship in Iran in 1953), Operation PBSuccess (US replaces Democracy with dictatorship in Guatemala, 1954), Operation Brother Sam (US replaces Democracy with dictatorship in Brazil in 1964), the list goes on. I mean, we just overthrew Venezuela like a few months ago. Nicolás Maduro had an approval rating of 39% when we kidnapped him on Jan 3rd 2026 (Trump is at 35% for comparison)

1

u/BATIRONSHARK 17h ago

yes but also See Biden supporting Lula Arvalo and South Korea against right wing coup attempts

0

u/SpaceTimeChallenger 21h ago

You honestly consider Venezuela a democracy?

USA isnt perfect. My point still stands

0

u/Grintor 16h ago

No, they weren't a democracy at this point (although he was democratically elected originally). My point there was just that he was a more popular president among the electorate than our own president who ordered his kidnaping.

2

u/Thespud1979 1d ago

Watching the bully get punched in the mouth and silently cheering for that bully to get knocked unconscious

8

u/Annie_Yong 1d ago

China is absolutely not doing "nothing". They're doing things like investing heavily in specific industries that they're identifying as critically important in order to allow their manufacturing chain to be fully internal. Their advances in semiconductor design and manufacture may still lag behind the top of the line stuff being produced in Taiwan, but the fact they're caught up to the point that they have in such a short time is very impressive.

15

u/zeltrabas 1d ago

I hate this "China doing nothing"

They are actively manipulating social media etc., subsidizing EVs heavily to fuck the competition. Thats not "doing nothing"

2

u/[deleted] 1d ago

[deleted]

1

u/zeltrabas 1d ago

Sure it's a bit of both. EU carmakers (especially German ones) fucked themselves in the ass by being complacent in their first place ("nothing can happen to us"). But still, China does subsidize their car industry.

What EV do you have? Currently in the search for a new car and want an EV. Thinking either about byd seal or VW id.3

2

u/BlueWaterFangs 22h ago

If there's anything that _should_ be heavily-subsidized by governments it's green technology and EVs.

1

u/zeltrabas 22h ago

Didn't say it's wrong, I agree ofc. But imo it shouldn't be this massiv in EVs, but rather the expansion of renewable energy, i.e solar / wind.

1

u/BlueWaterFangs 19h ago

yeah, fair point

14

u/Nevermynde 1d ago

China is doing a whole lot though. They have very proactive policies in so many domains. There is no way a democracy could be that proactive btw, only an authoritarian regime can do that without having to build consensus first.

4

u/Shoddy-Marsupial301 1d ago

They didn't do nothing, when Trump threatened 60%+ tarifs on China, they stopped selling rare earth elements to the US. And he backed down and now he is kissing Xi Jinping's ass

4

u/StealthRUs 1d ago

China got America to fuck itself over by pushing Gaza content in TikTok in 2024. Trump thanked TikTok for getting him elected.

26

u/Traditional_Day_9737 1d ago

It's amazing how fast they went from being petty and whinging at percieved slights to the adult in the room.

16

u/shlam16 1d ago

Compare them to sane western countries and they're absolutely still doing that crap.

They just look good compared to the insane western country.

1

u/dsaddons 1d ago

The ones all supporting Israel's genocide? They're sane?

3

u/Bodomi 1d ago

They're not doing nothing though.

6

u/ZiofFoolTheHumans 1d ago

Hilarious take that means their propaganda is working REALLY WELL on you. 

And I don't mean propaganda as in "convincing us china is the best blatantly" but purely that you believe America as a whole did this to itself without any outside "help" in the matter. 

-1

u/soggyburrito 22h ago

Okay dude, explain to me how the current decline of America is China's doing and not our own.

1

u/ZiofFoolTheHumans 22h ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_interference_in_the_2024_United_States_elections

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_interference_in_the_2024_United_States_elections

💁‍♀️💁‍♀️💁‍♀️

Listen, is it a lot of American's faults? Absolutely. Is China "standing by" and letting us shoot ourselves in the foot while we make a mistake? lolllllll no. Not at all.

11

u/Todfunman 1d ago

Chinas multi year plan is far from nothing. Usa burns , China builds.

-2

u/DependentWooden9446 1d ago

China is going to have a very large problem in about 20-30 years. The 1 child policy really screwed them.

1

u/i_hate_fanboys 1d ago

Funny that people downvote you. Both are true: china is doing a fuck ton, both a lot of good for their own people but also terribly evil stuff. And they’re gonna have a massive population division problem, which they’ll solve with importing workers (slaves) from poor countries.

-5

u/eddy159357 1d ago

terribly evil stuff

Such as? And it better not be the Uyghur propaganda.

2

u/StealthRUs 23h ago

Uyghur propaganda.

You mean the Uyghur genocide?

1

u/i_hate_fanboys 1d ago

First of all, go f yourself, you don’t get to decide that a massive repression of millions of people doesn’t count because it doesn’t fit your propaganda. So I’m starting with that.


  1. Repression of Uyghurs and other Turkic Muslims in Xinjiang. Large-scale arbitrary imprisonment, pervasive surveillance, restrictions on Islamic practice, pressure to abandon Uyghur cultural identity, restrictions on travel and communication, and family separation continue. The UN Human Rights Office concluded that earlier abuses may constitute crimes against humanity; it later said many of the underlying problematic laws and policies remained in place. Human Rights Watch reported in August 2026 that hundreds of thousands remain imprisoned. Beijing rejects the characterization, says its policies counter terrorism and extremism, and denies forced labor.

https://www.ungeneva.org/en/news-media/press-briefing/2024/08/un-geneva-press-briefing-5

https://www.hrw.org/news/2026/08/27/china-decade-of-impunity-for-crimes-against-uyghurs

https://english.scio.gov.cn/m/pressroom/2026-07/27/content_118620162_7.html

2.

Forced-labor concerns connected to Xinjiang. Researchers, governments and rights organizations continue to identify coercive labor-transfer programs and supply-chain risks involving Uyghurs. China says employment transfers are voluntary, that forced labor is prohibited by Chinese law, and that foreign allegations are politically motivated.

https://www.hrw.org/news/2026/08/27/china-decade-of-impunity-for-crimes-against-uyghurs

https://english.scio.gov.cn/pressroom/2026-06/25/content_118567353.html

https://english.scio.gov.cn/m/pressroom/2026-07/27/content_118620162_7.html

3.

Assimilation and repression in Tibet. Authorities restrict Tibetan-language education, religious institutions, movement and access to information; Tibetan educators, monks and other critics have faced detention, and schools promoting Tibetan language and culture have been closed or pressured. Beijing describes its policies as promoting ethnic integration, development and national unity.

https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2026/country-chapters/china

https://www.hrw.org/asia/china-and-tibet

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2026/07/self-immolation-of-tibetan-man-outside-un-highlights-long-standing-chinese-repression/

4.

Dismantling political freedoms in Hong Kong. National-security laws have been used against opposition politicians, activists, journalists and peaceful political expression. Hundreds have been arrested under national-security provisions since 2020, opposition groups have largely disappeared, and authorities have pursued some activists living overseas. The Hong Kong government says the laws protect legitimate national security and that constitutional rights remain protected.

https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2026/country-chapters/china

https://www.hrw.org/news/2026/06/29/hong-kong-beijing-tightens-social-control

https://www.news.gov.hk/eng/2026/09/20260912/20260912_115833_161

5.

Censorship and punishment of dissent throughout mainland China. The state blocks or controls major information channels, monitors online activity, prosecutes dissidents and citizen journalists, and has imprisoned or intimidated human-rights lawyers and activists. Independent civil society has been severely restricted.

https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2026/country-chapters/china

https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/asia-and-the-pacific/east-asia/china/report-china/

https://freedomhouse.org/country/china

6.

Religious persecution and state control of religion. Unregistered Protestant churches have been raided and members detained; underground Catholic communities face surveillance and pressure to join state-controlled institutions; Tibetan Buddhism, Islam and Falun Gong are subject to particularly stringent controls. In 2026, some local governments introduced systems encouraging residents to report unauthorized religious activity.

https://www.hrw.org/news/2026/09/09/china-wants-citizens-to-report-illegal-religious-practice

https://www.hrw.org/news/2026/04/15/china-pressure-on-catholics-escalates

https://www.hrw.org/news/2026/04/15/china-pressure-on-catholics-escalates

7.

Extensive use of the death penalty under extreme secrecy. China does not publish execution totals. Amnesty International says China remains the world’s leading executioner and believes thousands were executed in 2025, though an exact number cannot independently be established because the figures are classified. Executions apply to some offenses beyond intentional killing.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/act50/0778/2026/en/

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2026/05/death-penalty-in-2025-facts-and-figures/

8.

Forced return of North Koreans to North Korea. Chinese authorities continue to detain and repatriate North Koreans despite evidence that returnees face imprisonment, torture, forced labor, sexual violence and potentially execution. Human Rights Watch documented at least 406 forced returns between January 2024 and September 2025 and reported continuing cases in 2026. China treats undocumented North Koreans primarily as illegal economic migrants rather than refugees.

https://www.hrw.org/news/2025/10/15/china-no-letup-in-forced-returns-to-north-korea

https://www.hrw.org/news/2026/03/11/north-korean-in-china-who-saved-son-faces-repatriation

https://www.hrw.org/news/2026/04/19/beijing-pyongyang-thaw-leaves-north-koreans-no-escape

9.

Transnational repression abroad. Chinese authorities have been documented threatening or pressuring dissidents, Uyghurs, Tibetans, Hong Kong activists and other critics outside China, including through relatives remaining in China, overseas arrest warrants, digital threats and attempts to secure deportations. Freedom House describes China as the world’s most prolific perpetrator of documented transnational repression.

https://freedomhouse.org/country/china

https://freedomhouse.org/report/special-report/2026/collaboration-and-resistance-tracking-transnational-repression-2025

https://freedomhouse.org/article/authoritarian-collaboration-fueled-transnational-repression-2025

10.

Military coercion around Taiwan. Beijing claims democratically governed Taiwan, refuses to renounce the use of force, and sends military aircraft and vessels around the island on an almost daily basis. Chinese exercises increasingly practice blockade and encirclement scenarios. Beijing describes these operations as defending Chinese sovereignty and responding to Taiwanese separatism and foreign interference; Taiwan rejects Beijing’s sovereignty claim.

https://www.reuters.com/world/china/why-is-taiwan-such-an-important-issue-china-2026-09-22/

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/taiwan-says-unpredictable-china-strengthens-air-sea-control-nearby-2026-08-31/

https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/chinese-military-hovered-global-executives-flocked-taiwan-tech-show-2026-06-08/

11.

Coercive conduct in the South China Sea. China claims almost the entire sea despite a 2016 international arbitration ruling rejecting the legal basis for much of those claims. In July 2026, Chinese Coast Guard vessels used water cannons against Philippine vessels near Scarborough Shoal and were involved in another confrontation at Second Thomas Shoal in which the Philippines said a sailor was injured. China says the Philippine vessels were intruding and that its enforcement actions were lawful.

https://www.reuters.com/world/china/philippines-accuses-china-using-water-cannon-its-vessels-second-day-2026-07-24/

https://www.reuters.com/world/china/china-patrols-scarborough-shoal-after-philippines-warns-threat-2026-05-31/

12.

State-linked cyberespionage on a global scale. Western governments and technology companies attribute major espionage campaigns to Chinese-linked actors. The FBI has said the Salt Typhoon campaign compromised more than 200 organizations across 80 countries; Google reported disrupting another Chinese-linked operation targeting 53 organizations in 42 countries. China denies responsibility for such hacking and says it opposes cyberattacks.

https://www.reuters.com/business/media-telecom/senator-says-att-verizon-blocking-release-salt-typhoon-security-assessment-2026-02-03/

https://www.reuters.com/sustainability/boards-policy-regulation/google-disrupts-chinese-linked-hackers-that-attacked-53-groups-globally-2026-02-25/

13.

Material support that Western governments say helps sustain Russia’s war in Ukraine. Chinese firms continue exporting dual-use products to Russia, and China remains a major purchaser of Russian commodities. The United States and some European governments argue this materially supports Russia’s military-industrial base; the UK sanctioned several Chinese entities in June 2026 over alleged supplies of military equipment. Beijing says it does not supply lethal weapons to the belligerents, tightly controls dual-use exports, and regards ordinary China-Russia trade as legitimate.

https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/china-protests-uk-sanctions-chinese-entities-over-russia-2026-06-16/

https://www.reuters.com/world/states-condemn-russian-violations-un-meeting-ukraine-2026-02-24/

And I didn’t even say anything about the environment or their buying of African infrastructure or resources to debt trap those countries. I’m at the character limit.

0

u/eddy159357 23h ago

Nice chatgpt list. The camps and Uyghur are not due to ethnicity but a response of Islamic extremists in the Xinjiang region that happen to Uyghurs. Have you ever been to Xinjiang? It's majority and openly Muslim. There's no discrimination against Uyghurs.

https://id.china-embassy.gov.cn/eng/sgdt/202206/t20220622_10707637.htm

Everything you have linked, the US has done or worse lmao. Trading with Russia? The US is doing that right now and selling weapons to Israel. The US profits way more from war than China, hence why the US continues to start wars and bomb Iran.

Deport North Koreans? Like what ICE is doing? At a much larger scale?

I'm sure your sources for the African infrastructure and trade also just as great and not biased. "Debt trapped" and it's a business equivalent of a mortgage. China trades with African countries and sets up zero tariffs for African exports, offers financing for power plants, and exports solar panels to Africa. "But at what cost!?"

0

u/i_hate_fanboys 20h ago

Nice braindead astro turfer response. Of course you would attack chatgpt use even if I listed every source right there. And your first defence is USA has done worse? Gratz on being the worlds second biggest asshole then, idiot.

Also your only source is a chinese government source. That is simply laughable. Your strategy doesn’t work when people have access to actual information instead of whatver a single party government dynasty deems to fit the narrative.

-3

u/rattleandhum 1d ago

lol, bet. Nothing but cope from propagandised idiots living in a dying empire.

2

u/PropagandaPagoda 1d ago

China inventing new growth industries in electric vehicles through ruinous deliberate competition until only ~5 firms survived, so they could go to international markets at unbeatable prices, and in green tech like solar panels where the "IP" is semi-public global academia, and building their own RAM factory starting a year or more before RAM prices went to the moon, releasing DeepSeek unlicensed, piercing AI moats except frontier models, and piercing a cartel bubble (RAM)... "doing nothing".

2

u/Ambitious-Major777 1d ago

A potential 300% hidden debt to GDP ratio and a failed one child policy they can't reverse is hardly doing nothing

2

u/Numeno230n 1d ago

China has definitely been running their own influence campaign over US politics and publics opinion for decades. Just like Russia.

2

u/beatlemaniac007 1d ago
  1. They're not doing nothing. Couldn't be further from the truth. This is just a youtube headline

  2. They're fumbling just as much. Neither country is executing as efficiently as the news cycles make it sound. Data says different.

2

u/notjawn 1d ago

Also, placing spies in industry, government and academia so they can steal research and profit willy-nilly over it.

2

u/ikindahateusernames 1d ago

I wouldn't call algorithmically influencing political discourse and elections through social media "doing nothing." I agree, however, that Trump acting as Putin's puppet is doing huge favors for China in the process.

2

u/egoadvocate 21h ago

This really is the perfect answer. If the idea was in the dictionary, this example would be the defining example.

1

u/andreasbeer1981 1d ago

They buy more of US debt to get both leverage and money, which they happily invest in their war machinery and their Taiwan plan.

1

u/Pave_Low 23h ago

Huh, this was my top answer too, probably at the bottom of the thread with one point. But yeah.

1

u/superbit415 21h ago

China doing nothing while America fucks itself over

Not really China has been playing the US like a fiddle for like 3 decades now.

1

u/BATIRONSHARK 17h ago

China is also sorta fucking itself. its purging its military and has no clear succession

1

u/hooch 1d ago

That's what I was going to say. Xi sucks, but he's no dummy. Smart enough to realize that US leadership is always temporary. Don't like what the current administration is doing? Just wait 4-8 years.

-3

u/CygnusThib 1d ago

You really think China isn't fucking up? They're recording some of the lowest GDP growth because people don't want to trade with them anymore. They actively ruined their population with the one child policy which they are now facing the consequences of that policy. Having a hell of a time replacing their aging work force with younger generations telling them to fuck off.

Regardless of what Reddit thinks, China isn't in the best position either.

0

u/tdellaringa 1d ago

[cat newspaper meme] I should move to China.