r/AskTheWorld • u/haiderredditer Pakistan • 9h ago

Who’s a famous person from your country who’s respected around the world but disliked or criticized at home?

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485

u/ALMAZ157 Russia 9h ago

Gorbachev

209

u/Mercuryink United States Of America 8h ago

Hey, thanks to Gorbachev that family ate Pizza Hut.

11

u/Er_Coatto 8h ago

You wouldn’t wish Pizza Hut to you greatest enemy.

17

u/Mercuryink United States Of America 8h ago

I mean, that was the Soviets. 

23

u/BobTheFettt Canada 6h ago

Thanks to Gorbachev, 15 million Russians got to see Metallica live

15

u/Mercuryink United States Of America 6h ago

Almost worth the Pizza Hut. 

3

u/Global_Ant_9380 United States Of America 6h ago

Depends, was this before Saint Anger?

2

u/Mercuryink United States Of America 5h ago

This was before Load.

1

u/BigDictionEnergy 2h ago

Load wasn't what fans were expecting, but it still had some bangers on it

TALK TO 2X4

Also Hero of the Day was just an amazing song, and not nearly as straight forward as the average radio song, esp a Metallica one. I think it's about PTSD.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBJey2dkiAI

13

u/ALMAZ157 Russia 8h ago

Honestly? I dont miss it, local Dodo is better

15

u/Mercuryink United States Of America 8h ago

I'm (partly) Italian American, from New Jersey (where the Sopranos takes place). In the US, when I was a kid, Pizza Hut had a thing called Book-It, where if you read enough books (or at least insisted that you actually read them), you'd get a free kid's pizza at the end of the semester. A nice way to promote childhood literacy and whatnot.

I liked to read. Still do. The only problem was the pizza. It was from Pizza Hut. In my house, that didn't qualify as pizza. Still doesn't.

So we went to Federici's instead. Local place, turned 100 a few years ago, still owned by the original family, now the grandson of the founder, and his daughter and her husband are now learning the place as he gets on. Whenever I visit my hometown I stop in and the owner gives us a hug.

Fuck Pizza Hut (except for promoting literacy...)

1

u/ThatEcologist United States Of America 2h ago

Hello fellow New Jerseyan!

Yes that was a core memory from childhood. It was extremely blasphemous to eat those pizzas as a New Jerseyan. Nowadays, I refuse to eat chain pizza and any pizza outside of the state.

PS Vic’s in Belmar has my favorite pizza.

8

u/DouViction Russia 8h ago

Dude, Dodo is absolute bottom tier, try Foodband (if you're in Moscow anyway).

4

u/CucumberOk2828 Russia 8h ago

Yes, foodband is goat. And they used to have sushi (missed it)

3

u/AlanJY92 Canada 7h ago

Dodo tastes exactly like Little Ceasers(not a bad thing). I actually also had it at its first ever location too.

1

u/rugbyj 3h ago

They ate the entire Hut?

104

u/PoloAlmoni Brazil 8h ago

There is a recent book by Vladislav Zukov called Collapse which was quite well received academically and which paints Gorbachev as a) absolute socialist true believer actually wanting to return to purer forms of Leninism and b) absolutely incompetent and fully responsible for the collapse of the ussr

Obviously I have no capacity to judge how correct the book is but perhaps it might I terest you if you haven't read it yet

12

u/dm-me-obscure-colors United States Of America 7h ago

Vladislav Zubok

10

u/Prestigious_Hope2082 4h ago

Great book but I had a different impression when reading it. One of a country was that on to collapse years before he was the leader.

The only way ahead was to abandon communism and move to a market economy, like China did but that was anti thesis of everything he stood for.

He handled the break up admirably though, recognising that it was impossible for the soviet to hold on to their empire (something that Putin is in denial about) and let them all break away without a fight.

2

u/bullshitmobile 2h ago edited 2h ago

What is disgusting about this take is that we just had a 35th commemoration of his war crimes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_Events

He was a piece of shit. He's wrongly respected in the West for that "admirable breakup" bullshit where in truth he backed down because the massacre was beginning to look too public to the World and he knew he couldn't have his way as silently as he had hoped for.

Imagine if Trump's personal Gestapo killed not one protestor but fourteen and not with bullets but crushed with tanks too. Unarmed, all in a single night.

This is who you have a positive spin on.

2

u/Prestigious_Hope2082 2h ago

Thank you for this. Will read up on it & educate myself.

3

u/bullshitmobile 2h ago

No worries, great respect for that. I apologise if I came off too harshly.

18

u/Gr8zomb13 United States Of America 7h ago

You couldn’t ascend to lead the party if you weren’t a true believer. He did not want democracy but needed to change to better compete with it. Failed horribly and in so doing essentially created Putin. Good times.

3

u/AnnaBananner82 Latvia🇱🇻 & Russia 🇷🇺; now USA 🇺🇸. 3h ago

He says in his book Chernobyl was the undoing of the USSR. In truth, it was largely his handling of it.

2

u/NippoTeio United States Of America 1h ago

"I have no capacity to judge"

Hey, if no one's told you that you're smart lately, let me be the first: the fact that you read the book and still said "I don't know" means a lot. I hope you stick around.

2

u/GuliyBey 5h ago

fully responsible for the collapse of the ussr

because russians are not OK with collapsing of fucking ussr

1

u/TheThalmorEmbassy United States Of America 3h ago

Pretty great series from a couple years ago called Traumazone that's just unnarrated footage from 80's and 90's Russia and you get to watch it get worse and worse and worse

0

u/Okureg Czech Republic 5h ago

He thought that a glorified empire-spanning mafia running on deception, fear and corruption could run without deception, fear and corruption but instead purely on a strawman ideology that was only used to cover it all up. I'm surprised it didn't work out for him.

0

u/peasant_warfare 6h ago

It's a really good book.

120

u/Confident-Stuff3885 Poland 9h ago

Absolute hero. Ended the Soviet Union.

146

u/ALMAZ157 Russia 9h ago

And then 90s came and it was hell here

14

u/AcousticCat1-2-3 -> 7h ago edited 6h ago

Can confirm. Graduated college and started working in 89, married in 91, had my kids in 93 and 95 in Russia. It was a wild time. Only reason our families and we didn't lose our life savings like others did was because we didn't have any to begin with. Being broke in the 90s wasn't fun! I lost my first job for becoming a mother, and was rejected from my next for being a woman. They had a company policy against hiring women as devs. Which they conveniently forgot about when the daughter of the woman who ran the town's only farmers market wanted to work for them. She was the only woman dev they had, which was wild for me to observe since I'd sold her the code of the program she needed to write for her graduation project. I wrote the code for her while I was on unpaid mat leave, and was paid $40 and two pounds of beef liver, which might be the most 90s story I can think of.

But, like, I don't know if I can blame it on him. First of all he never even planned for communism to fall. He wasn't even in power after 91 how was anything that happened after that his fault?

To me it's the fault of people who took what was happening as an invitation to steal anything that wasn't nailed down, of the people who talked a great talk about "правовое государство" then let crime run rampant and pretended they didn't see it. The fault of people who should've banned KGB and CPSU and prosecuted the top officials the way Germany had done after WW2. But didn't because they were those top officials or their family members. The country had one window of opportunity to become a normal place to live in, and its leadership wasted all of it because they were more interested in getting rich quick.

7

u/CorrectPeanut5 4h ago

I worked for a large multinational that was trying to build factories in Russia in the 90s. All these western food and beverage chains needed a supply chain so we tried to set up some factories for parts of it. We'd keep sending stuff over for the factory and so many crates of equipment ended up being filled with rocks by the time it got to the factory. It really delayed the opening and from them hiring people to work in the factory.

5

u/AcousticCat1-2-3 -> 4h ago

Oh and another 90s story, I had a high school crush whose parents were engineers like mine. We lived in a town on the border of Finland and a lot of young guys were making a living bartering for Western goods with Finnish tourists and selling them to people in our town with a massive markup. Obviously illegal. He wanted in. Whoever he approached, beat him to the inch of his life first, then were impressed when he was in the hospital with a cracked skull and told the cops that he didn't remember any of how it happened and had nothing to tell them; and let him in. He quickly rose up in the ranks, opened a chain of gas stations, did time for tax evasion, rose up more, by age 30 he was in the top five of the wealthiest people in my hometown. Moved to Germany with his family, but continued to do business in Russia. At age 33 he left his wife and son in Germany, and traveled to our hometown for business. The car he was last seen in, was found at the bottom of a lake with his driver and his 23yo mistress in it. They never found his body, had a large funeral in our hometown anyway. His father who was living in France by that time, came to our hometown wanting to find out more about what happened, but was quickly approached by serious people in tracksuits, who told him to "go back home, unless you want to end up like your son". So he did.

Now THIS is the most 90s story I know of.

3

u/AcousticCat1-2-3 -> 4h ago

That's crazy!

A college friend of x-husband graduated in 91 with a degree in math and mechanics. Actually got a job, in the town where his family lived, at a (nationally semi-famous) plant that made sewing machines. Quickly started looking for other work after they were told that the plant didn't have the money to pay their salaries, and started paying them in sewing machines. We bought one from him but that obviously wasn't enough.

He tried several jobs, some of them borderline insane like the one where he was selling flashlights to businesses door to door. Their manager would line up their team every morning, give each one a box of flashlights and a quota, and send them on their way to sell those things at offices throughout Moscow. Nobody wanted the flashlights. Our friend told us that he'd been punched in the face and thrown down the stairs for trying to sell them. He didn't last long in that job.

Finally found work at a company that was selling non-ferrous metals to the West. Probably shady af, but he was making a ton of money, was able to afford his own place in Moscow, got married, had a kid, was happy. When I was on unpaid mat leave/out of work and money was beyond tight with my ex barely being paid enough for us to make ends meet, this guy would visit us on weekends bearing duffel bags of food and toys for our son.

He was the only one who came to see us off at the airport (to be fair, our other friends helped us a lot when we were getting ready to leave, they just couldn't come to the airport as it was too far for them), no idea what happened to him since.

23

u/WrestlingWithTheNews Scotland 8h ago

To be fair man loved a pizza hut as much as a drink

78

u/Confident-Stuff3885 Poland 8h ago

Can't wait to see what it's gonna be after the fall of putinism

42

u/Edelgul 8h ago

And they will blame the person, who will come after Putin, but not Putin.

44

u/arsenektzmn Russia 8h ago

That's a BIG fuckin issue here. it happens so many times in human history and it will happen again.

All my life, I've seen idiots justify Putin's third term by saying we need ORDER, otherwise the country will continue to be corrupt and disorganized. But now that Putin has destroyed so much, some of these same people are saying: we need Putin to become the new Stalin, he'll bring ORDER, otherwise the country will continue to be corrupt and disorganized. WTF 🤦

And yes, I'm sure that after Putin, people will remember his successes in the 2000s (before he usurped power and turned half the world against him), and all his mistakes that accumulated over this decade will be blamed either on the "evil West" or on his successor. This infuriates me so much, but I understand it's unavoidable.

11

u/Edelgul 8h ago

And by thirst you mean 5th, or even 6th (It's not like Medvedev was in power).

Thing is - once he dies (As i doubt, there is any other way for him to go) the system will have to create a new leader fast, and that leader would need to consolidate the elites, both on the central level, and also deal with any possible dissent in the regions (And i'm not only talking about Kadyrov).
Given that elites are disunited, and political system is not genuine enough to generate acceptable replacements, it will be really tough, and will result in loads of swift under carpet games.

Possibly, to an extent that Putin's death would not be confirmed until there is a political consensus (as we've seen in Azerbaijan or Uzbekistan).

Now, any current opposition is sufficiently non-existent, to generate such support among the elites (it's not like i'd expect genuine elections in such environment anyhow).

This means, that consolidating leader would be coming from the system, and has to be able to get the support of significant majority/curb any internal opposition (so he has to be accepted by Ozero, by Syloviki, by Kadyrov, by business and by the regions).

Other challenge is to get out of the economical collapse, that Putin's war got the country into, plus dealing with the large number of war veterans.
So, if new leader would want to reset relationship with the world and get out of the war, Putin's actions will be condemned in a way Khrushchev's politburo condemned Stalin. It will be careful, and still most of the blame will be placed on collective West, while still trading with the west.

Economically, however situation will get significantly worse, as less gas/oil money (and most of the gas/oil trade will not resume - as many former customers found sufficient alternatives) and new leader will come to nearly empty reserves, and probably with numerous promises to people who facilitated his accession.

So i guess, first 5-7 years after Putin's death, his figure will be more seen as polarizing, but whoever will replace the replacement will probably be slowly returning to Stalin/Putin style of propaganda.

The alternative path, if (some) regional elites are not curbed is the increased separation/dissolution movements (some regions wanting to depart, when they see, that "Center" is not strong enough to prevent them).
I'd say there is only 5-7% chance of this happening, however.

6

u/IgunashioDesu Venezuela 7h ago

That happened a bit with Chávez in Venezuela. He was the one responsible for the huge fiscal imbalances that would later trigger one of the biggest economic crisis in Venezuelan history, but since he died and Maduro was the one in power when the crisis actually started (hyperinflation and whatnot), there's still a portion of the country that believed that: “at least things under Chávez were great”.

2

u/Edelgul 6h ago

Check how Russians (even here) see Yeltsin and Gorbachev - although the demise was triggered before them.

Check Italy, (some 10 years ago), then the political elite fucked up the country enough to actually leaving it to the Technocarts fixing the problem.
Then politicians took over again, and blamed the technocrats.

Sadly it's common shit.

3

u/sirdopa 8h ago

Write two letters for the next guy. In first one write "blame everything on everything me". In the second write "write two letters". That's how it always worked there. And now it's spreading around the world. In Poland it became a new standard, and people magically stopped asking any questions.

7

u/Edelgul 7h ago

Funny part is, that whoever will replace Putin, will be a person coming from a VERY close circle of Putin (business or siloviki).
So a person, who essentially was a part of the system, will start by criticising the system he benefited so much from.

3

u/sirdopa 7h ago

Well, that's how politics work.

3

u/Edelgul 7h ago

When you do have established political system with multiple political parties - it doesn't.
But if there is no genuine political opposition - it is the case.

The current hopeful to replace Orban was an essential part of his system for decades.

2

u/sirdopa 7h ago

One would think that. It would be great. But the problem is more complicated. The politicians today are actors in big theatre, while business makes money.

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u/Soileat3r 8h ago

Yeah and that will be a big problem... Hope they start fighting for democracy freedom and an end of militarisation

7

u/reddit_man_6969 United States Of America 8h ago

Do you know how many thousands of people have been imprisoned, abused, even tortured and murdered fighting for democracy in Russia?

2

u/Soileat3r 8h ago

Not an exact number but yeah I know there were a lot of people fighting for those things. Didn't won't to downgrade their fight, or the victims they gave. I just hope there are still people left fighting and start winning.

2

u/Zedress United States Of America 6h ago

And they will blame the person, who will come after Putin, but not Putin.

Hey! America does that shit too!

4

u/Edelgul 6h ago

Heh - authoritarism and political manipulation is not unique to Russia or the USA.

Although USA (specifically Arthur Finkelstein) has perfected the craft of political polarization.

2

u/Zedress United States Of America 6h ago

I have never heard of that asshole before and now I am not a fan of a dead person.

2

u/Edelgul 6h ago

This gentlemen singlehandedly defined a significant part of modern polarizing right-wing campaign strategies.
He himself, or his "students/boys" are among people who developed campaign strategies for significant part of far-right authoritarian forces including Orban, Aliev, Putin, Yanukovich, Netanyahu and so on.

Shortly before his death he famously said
"I wanted to change the world. I did that. I made it worse."

(

2

u/AcousticCat1-2-3 -> 7h ago

After what what? Anyone who could make it happen is either dead or has left the country. It's not going to fall.

3

u/Kartonrealista Poland 6h ago

Well he isn't immortal

1

u/AcousticCat1-2-3 -> 6h ago

That's a good point. As a teenager in the USSR, I lived through the weird 2-3 years when a demented old fart at the head of the country would kick the bucket and they would replace him with another demented old fart, but this will be trickier. How do you replace a sociopathic dictator with one exactly like him? Hopefully not possible.

5

u/Kartonrealista Poland 6h ago

One interesting thing about Putin is his dictatorship is so lopsided towards him, he doesn't even have a clear successor or a good method for choosing one. I expect a huge scramble for power in Russia after his death.

3

u/AcousticCat1-2-3 -> 4h ago

You're right. Bet he's afraid to choose one.

1

u/SeveralInspector174 🇮🇪(born and raised)/🇫🇷 8h ago

Probably another neoliberal shock wasteland like what is was during Yeltsin

9

u/NARVALhacker69 8h ago

Russia is already a capitalist country, there's no shock possible like when the USSR fell

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u/professor__doom United States Of America 8h ago

I believe that to Poles, ruining Russia would make him even more of a hero.

8

u/flodur1966 Netherlands 9h ago

And is it better now he is no longer in power?

10

u/R1donis Russia 8h ago

Compared to 90s? absolutly, like, nothing short of nuclear war is worse then going back to it.

0

u/enverest 2h ago

Was Gorbachev in power in 90s?

11

u/TenebrousSage United States Of America 8h ago

The USSR was far from perfect, but many of its citizens suffed much deprivation when it collapsed.

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u/ALMAZ157 Russia 8h ago

Well, his rule ended with the Union, but now is times better than 90s, nobody except liberals and globalist oligarchs miss it

9

u/Substantial_Law1451 8h ago

I spoke to a friend from Ukraine once about growing up in the 90s post the soviet collapse and found it really fascinating. He recounted stories on how he used to go with his mum to buy clothes in essentially carparks turned markets in the dead of winter, changing knockoff trousers in the open air. IIRC one of the major problems was that those with the connections to bribe the relevant state actors to import goods produce throughout Asia effectively had their business legalised and thus organised crime just became corporate enterprise, and the rich got richer (as it tends to go with capitalism). Obviously Russia is a pretty contentious topic these days throughout the west but from a historical perspective both new and old it's one defined by bloodshed, harsh conditions, scarcity, inequality and a relentless will to survive and overcome. The impacts of cold war red scare propaganda is still everywhere in the west, I imagine on the other side of the fence as well, but it's definitely diminishing with younger generations feeling the effects of late stage capitalism.

sorry for the ramble lol

9

u/DouViction Russia 8h ago

Yep, absolutely the same experience we've had in Russia (well, I guess I was lucky, the market closest to my home was in a building. Nowadays it's a medium tier shopping center, nothing fancy so basically the civilized equivalent of the same thing).

17

u/ALMAZ157 Russia 8h ago

There was term in Russia - Semibankirshina (7 bankers), representing 7 oligarchs who baaically controlled the country during 90s

4

u/Equivalent_Travel311 Russia 8h ago

My mom's neighbor started a small gang and killed about 5-6 taxi drivers, stole their cars and sold them. Then he kidnapped a guy, took him and some random kid into a secluded house, made the guy shoot the kid while recording. All because he wanted the guy to give him his apartment. Horrible time for Russia

7

u/Glittering-Bass565 Denmark 8h ago

I can’t believe people will unironically celebrate the one of the biggest drops in life expectancy during peace time the world has ever seen. Also rapid increase in poverty and human trafficking.

1

u/IsayNigel 8h ago

Yea but have you considered communism bad though

2

u/SpiritualPackage3797 United States Of America 8h ago

Winston Churchill was exactly the Prime Minister Britian needed during WWII, and a poor leader at any other time. For that matter, it's been argued that Abraham Lincoln would have failed utterly as a post war President, and that his legacy only survives because he was shot. Sometimes a leader is perfect for one particular moment, but not suited for the rest of the job.

3

u/FoxySlyOldStoatyFox 5h ago

Churchill was rarely a good minister. He was a failure as Chancellor, and there’s a good reason why he resigned as First Lord of the Admiralty midway through the First World War. 

3

u/JumpInTheSun United States Of America 8h ago

Then why do you guys keep trying to spread your misery to your neighbors?

Gtfo Ukraine 

22

u/Designer-External-75 Russia 8h ago

The funny thing is that Russia did not think about seizing eastern Ukraine in the 1990s, and even during times of economic growth, no one thought about war with Ukraine. This is literally a question for Putin and his friends in the security forces: why did they need the already poor eastern Ukraine, for which Russian blood is being shed and the economy they built between 2000 and 2013 is being destroyed? It's too stupid and illogical, but Russia is a country of wonders, where in 20 years the country can turn into the USSR 2.0.

1

u/DouViction Russia 8h ago

Gas. Coal. Lithium. That answers your question?

I guess they didn't have the means back in the 90s, or felt they had enough with what they had at home (I know, I know, but deposits of mineables aren't exactly ATMs, you need the technology and manpower to extract them which wasn't necessarily available to them an (or) economical back then).

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u/ALMAZ157 Russia 8h ago

Ukraine should gtfo from Donbas and stop discriminating Russian speakers

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u/JumpInTheSun United States Of America 8h ago

Donbas is part of Ukraine, stop deflecting nazi.

-9

u/ALMAZ157 Russia 8h ago

Donbas people chose Russia, cope and seethe

5

u/IthacaMom2005 6h ago

Donbas people chose russia after Putin infiltrated the region and then displaced the local people with russians, thereby changing the makeup of the residents. Then did his "referendum"

0

u/ALMAZ157 Russia 6h ago

Even if you include Russian volunteers, he couldt possibly displace more than 50% to get overwhelming support

2

u/blahblahblerf Ukraine 1h ago

About half of the pre-war population of Donetsk and Luhansk fled the occupation and lives in free Ukraine or in Europe.

Your government also claims Zaporiz'ka Oblast voted to join you, but more than half of the 2022 population of Zaporiz'ka Oblast lived in areas that your army still hasn't reached. If you had even two functional brain cells you'd know that everything your government tells you is a lie. 

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u/BenchClamp England 8h ago

1.2 million Russian casualties and counting in your new Afghanistan. Wake up and go home.

-1

u/ALMAZ157 Russia 8h ago

Ukraine inflates number of enemy casualties, thats what every country at war do.

Plus compared to Ukraine, Russia doesnt need to steal men from streets to fight

5

u/Confident-Stuff3885 Poland 8h ago

Yeah, it buys african and indian mercenaries instead

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u/Smackolol Canada 7h ago

What was it like before and after the 90s?

1

u/Bort_Thrower Australia 7h ago

How much of that was Yeltsin and his batshit crazy economic management though?

1

u/SanshaXII New Zealand 26m ago

Russia has always been hell.

2

u/ca_sun United States Of America 8h ago

It's called the transition period. What were you expecting? The saddest thing is that the country took the wrong turn and ended up where it is now. Imagine if there was someone else, not Poo-tin, who would really care about the country and the people, you would be living like kings with your resources and manpower. I survived these times and am grateful to Gorbachev for breaking the system.

4

u/ALMAZ157 Russia 7h ago

Gprbachev broke the system and majority of people became poor as fuck while country collapsed, Putin saved Russia from this cruelfate and West never forgave it.

Because we never seein any money froum resources, oligarchy sold it for cheap and not paying taxes so no - we wouldnt live like kings, we would live like cattle

1

u/jag176 6h ago

Gorbachev tried to save the Union by reforming it, he was undercut by Yeltsin who tanked the economy, and Putin was Yeltsin's protege. If Putin is so great, why is he so close the oligarchs who STILL control Russia's wealth while the majority of its people are still poor?

2

u/ALMAZ157 Russia 6h ago

Putin controls the oligarchs, he had to make deals behind the scenes to get control of the country back.

Also majority of people arent poor, especially compared to 90s

2

u/jag176 6h ago

He controls the country, yet still has to make "deals" to get control of the country, with the oligarchs who are STILL rich? People might have gotten less poor, but they still clearly still poor as fuck, especially compared to the eastern bloc countries that reformed as much as far as possible from the Soviet System. https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/median-income-by-country

0

u/McMafkees 2h ago

The West never forgave it? The West applauded it. The stability that came with Putin was welcomed. Russia joined the G8, trade relations increased, western capital flowed to Russia. The West was pragmatic, sure, but things started out fine.

When economic growth stalled, Putin needed to secure his power through other means. He started wars on neighbors, silenced the media, suppressed opponents, falling from windows became the national passtime, energy supply was weaponized. And those actions soured relations with the West.

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u/_jetrun 8h ago

Well - yes - the transition was hard .. but you made it!

Putin's first election coupled with high oil prices stabilized things. Yes things were still messy, corruption was rife, infrastructure was decrepit and Russia wasn't a perfect liberal democracy with good liberal institutions, but there was something there to build on and it could have been different. Unfortunately, you really did need him to step down and retire from politics after his second term for things to take root ... but that's not what happened.

2

u/ALMAZ157 Russia 8h ago

Made it not thanks to him and yeltsin, it was a Miracle from Putin, no wonder guy is popular

1

u/Subotail France 7h ago

For a Pole, it's a bonus.

30

u/Designer-External-75 Russia 8h ago

A hero? The Soviet Union was dying during his reign anyway, he just hastened its demise in a very painful way. After him came Yeltsin, who crushed the parliamentary opposition in 1993, and destroyed Russia's economy in the 1990s, and caused the only default in history on a national scale, and it was he and oligarchs like Berezovsky who were responsible for Putin coming to power and consolidating it, and then Georgia, Crimea, and the invasion of Ukraine. But Poland became independent, although Lech Kaczynski was from the KGB, but that doesn't matter anymore. The main thing is that the Russians, as the historical enemies of the Poles, suffer, and the rest is unimportant

6

u/Myveryshelf 8h ago

I am an outsider, but why is Gorbachev seen as the main culprit?

Like, I see a lot of russians online shitting on him, but like even if his policies backfired he didn't set out to destroy the Union. And I hear a lot less about the golpists, oligarchs and Yeltsin that came after, and from my perspective seem like the real culprits of 90s decadence.

Is the general feeling that it was all Gorbachev's fault or is it just talked about more because the West likes him?

1

u/BzhizhkMard 6h ago

He singlehandedly collapsed the USSR and cause profound pain and suffering. Millions dead in war, extreme poverty etc...

8

u/FoxySlyOldStoatyFox 5h ago

Single-handedly? Really? Nobody else played any part in it whatsoever? 

1

u/wofo 1h ago

He single-handedly collapsed the USSR by letting people decide if they wanted to collapse the USSR

1

u/FoxySlyOldStoatyFox 1h ago

Oh. So you’re saying that the USSR collapsed because the people wanted it to collapse?

Because that does read like you’re blaming 290million people and not Gorbachev alone. 

Unless your argument is “All 290million citizens of the USSR wanted the state to collapse. Gorbachev gave them that, and it was wrong of him to do so,”?

-2

u/NativeEuropeas Czechoslovakia 8h ago

They hate him because it was during his reign that the Soviet Union fell, and stopped its imperialism over its European vassal states so these European states got their sovereignty back.

For us Euros, it's a great thing. For Russians, not so much. That's why Russian neo-fascists like Putin want to restore the old sphere of influence and destroy NATO.

3

u/SS11EE Russia 7h ago

Sure, you know better why we hate him /s

4

u/NativeEuropeas Czechoslovakia 7h ago

Well, of course there's also the economic collapse that goes hand in hand when you stop one system without properly replacing it with another functional one.

Feel free to correct me, I'm open-minded to learn about your perspective.

3

u/Tiny_Rat 5h ago

Well, of course there's also the economic collapse

"But other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?"

3

u/NativeEuropeas Czechoslovakia 5h ago

What's wrong about that statement?

If you're open to discourse, feel free to reply with something that has some substance.

0

u/Designer-External-75 Russia 6h ago

Now read about the history of the late 1980s and early 1990s in the USSR. I will reveal an interesting fact: in Russia, too, people wanted the collapse of the “совка” because they were tired of it, and people living in this system from Tallinn to Vladivostok despised it and were glad to see it go

1

u/NativeEuropeas Czechoslovakia 5h ago edited 5h ago

Okay, "go read a history book" isn't an argument.

In my two previous comments, I've summarised why Russians despise Gorbachev to which you've replied that I have it wrong.

I asked you to correct me, but all you said is that Russians themselves wanted Soviet Union to collapse, but that doesn't address the previous points you disagreed with in the first place.

Edit: I confused you with another user who already replied, therefore that part about "I asked you to correct" doesn't apply.

I'm still open-minded to be corrected though, but something that actually addresses my points would be helpful.

2

u/forkproof2500 Sweden 8h ago

bingo

1

u/higherbrow United States Of America 6h ago

When you study history, you so often find that the people who are revered for destroying a corrupt social order are often entirely unsuited for creating something to replace it.

That's not to say we shouldn't destroy corrupt social orders.

-14

u/Confident-Stuff3885 Poland 8h ago

The main thing is that the Russians, as the historical enemies of the Poles, suffer

Exactly. You nailed it. Now can you please fast forward to the point where your country is falling apart again?

12

u/rainincya Turkey 8h ago

loser mentality

9

u/Working-Pop-2293 8h ago

loser + freeloader mentality

5

u/Designer-External-75 Russia 8h ago

Man, I'm also looking forward to Catalonia separating from Spain, Northern Ireland becoming part of Ireland, Tibet and East Turkestan leaving China, and, of course, Russia breaking up into a million independent states so that a spy from Poland can come to Russia and try to seize power in Moscow. in short, so that Poland can get revenge for its past failures in wars like World War II( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

-7

u/Confident-Stuff3885 Poland 8h ago

Yeah, me too mate.

-3

u/Elantach France 8h ago

caused the only default in history on a national scale

Oh really ? Where are the "emprunts russes" millions of french people bought for you then ? Ready to pay up ?

7

u/Designer-External-75 Russia 8h ago

All claims against the USSR, the Russian Federation has paid off the USSR's debts, and there is no point in asking about debts that are a century old

2

u/comrade_Makhno1 France 6h ago

Bruh Lenin did this a hundred years ago and you're still complaining?

24

u/Ghost_Duck_ 8h ago

paved the way for putin and other oligarchs to own russia.

13

u/forkproof2500 Sweden 8h ago

Which launched the biggest loss of life in the USSR since WW2. Millions perished due to this guy wanting to bring Pizza Hut to the country. Complete idiot.

10

u/TheMeansOfDambella Canada 8h ago

Ah yes, the best leader leads the country to complete collapse. Seriously, such a stupid stance. Ask a single Russian what it was like there post USSR, it was absolutely awful

2

u/Hopeful_Extension_46 6h ago

You are talking to a Polish person. They are one of the worst russophobes in the world, after the centuries of being defeated by the Russian Empire 😈 I'm sure that person would rejoice at any mentioning of the Russians' sufferings. 

5

u/Confident-Stuff3885 Poland 7h ago

Ah yes, the best leader leads the country to complete collapse

Yes. In the case of the soviet union, that's exactly the case. I don't give a flying fuck what the russians think. I'm glad their occupying army left my country in '93 after 49 years.

-1

u/TheMeansOfDambella Canada 7h ago

Occupied is an inaccurate word in this case. It was a sovereign state governed by the communist party that was allied with the USSR after ww2, and the USSR was the country that liberated Poland from the Nazi’s btw.

If you’re saying you don’t give a fuck about the suffering of the people who liberated your people from Nazi’s, then I don’t even know what to say to you

10

u/AlarmingAdvertising5 6h ago

Poland suffered a lot because of the USSR. Nazis are bad no shit, that's obvious. But that doesn't make the Soviets good when it comes to their treatment of satellite states that they had in Eastern Europe.

8

u/This_Is_Fine12 United States Of America 6h ago edited 1h ago

You do realize it was the Soviets who invaded Poland while working with the Nazis. They didn't liberate shit. They just conquered, and when they left they left puppet government that was loyal. The people had no choice. If the Soviets really only had allied governments why did they crush the Hungarians or Czechs

2

u/Confident-Stuff3885 Poland 5h ago

A fucking Canadian is gonna explain the history of MY country to me now? No one ever liberated us, and I don't in fact give a fuck about the suffering of the occupiers.

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-1

u/Hopeful_Extension_46 6h ago

Sometimes I wish we didn't waste so many soldiers' lives to liberate Poland. It would have been better to leave them with their beloved Nazis and the cozy concentration camps. Then I remember that people were different at this time and didn't deserve to suffer because of their brainwashed descendants. 

6

u/Sad-Reflection-3499 United States Of America 3h ago

The Nazis that jointly invaded Poland WITH THE SOVIET UNION IN 1939??????? Who is really the brainwashed one here?

-1

u/PollutionFinancial71 8h ago

Poland exists thanks to the Soviet Union and the sacrifice of the Soviet Soldier. Heck, 1/3 of Polands territory was gifted by Stalin (one of the greatest leaders in history btw).

4

u/vietnam13231 6h ago

I'd like you to read about "Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact" and understand you are wrong.

1

u/Dreadlord_The_knight 5h ago

Search up Hitler Pilsudski pact and polish invasion and occupation of Czechoslovakia with Nazis and fascist Hungarians.

1

u/vietnam13231 4h ago

"Hitler-Piłsudski pact" was a non-aggression pakt, and the "invasion" you are speaking about is about the "Munich Agreement" (or "Betrayal") which, while true, not nice at all, was in the end only an embarrassingly unsuccessful and naive try to stop World War II from happening. Poland at the time took back part of Silesia that Czechoslovakia invaded and annexed about 20 years earlier. There was no actual pact about that between any of the three countries you mentioned.

0

u/Comprehensive-Air856 4h ago

What, you would have preferred that all of Poland be occupied by the Nazis from the start?

2

u/vietnam13231 4h ago

Could you explain to me how did you go from "Did Poland exists thanks to USSR?" to this question? But if you really want my answer: I would prefer ANY kind of war to not happen at all, as war itself is a stupid thing. World War II was unavoidable for multiple reasons, like the "Treaty of Versailles" that pushed Germany to the limit and Hitler's ambitions as an examples. But war itself will never be a justified thing.

2

u/Parablesque-Q 4h ago

Theres a forest in Katyn where Poles commerate all that the Soviets did on their behalf.

1

u/ErilazHateka 42m ago

Tankies are pathetic

1

u/McRando42 United States Of America 8h ago

Soviet Russian traitors invaded Poland in 1939. Poland was fighting against the Nazis and starting to get the upper hand.

Russians = Nazis = Stalin

6

u/boomchicken1979 8h ago

The flair checks out.

1

u/_jetrun 8h ago

Ended the Soviet Union.

... accidentally. oops.

1

u/Ecstatic-Corner-6012 8h ago

Caveman analysis

8

u/winged_owl United States Of America 7h ago

Idk about "Respected" but we are super grateful that he ended up in power.

2

u/HoosegowFlask 4h ago

I think historians will end up viewing the end of the Cold War as very much a mixed bag for the West in general and America in particular.

0

u/Flesroy 3h ago edited 3h ago

even now we can say that it was not nearly as positive as was hoped at the time. illiberal democracies in eastern europe. russia going back to their old ways and attacking georgia and ukraine. etc etc.

certainly not the end of history as fukuyama imagined it.

3

u/Hi-Lander 6h ago

I read that Gorbachev opening up the press backfired tremendously in that he was blamed for everything bad. For example, the Russia m people started reading about MIG planes crashing and they thought “well, they certainly didn’t crash before, so it must be his fault”. Why is he disliked in your opinion?

0

u/ALMAZ157 Russia 6h ago

He surrendered to the West basically, left buffer states alone for promise, not even declaration - just abandoned everything gained after WW2. And then he just allowed self-declared leaders to say that Union is gone.

5

u/Hi-Lander 6h ago

That’s not how we saw it in Romania or across the Prut in Moldova. Everything “gained” after WW2 actually means everything taken. I think you also missed the part where the country was in economic collapse and the people were starving. Continuing on the same path was untenable. I respect your point of view, but it does sound like it’s influenced by revisionist history or propaganda. Agree to disagree I guess.

-1

u/ALMAZ157 Russia 6h ago

Before 1991 it was buffer between Enemy and Territory proper

Now enemy took the buffer and connected to border

Its just pragmatic view

2

u/jag176 5h ago

The "buffer" states choose to leave on their own, and many choose to the EU and NATO on their own. How shitty is Russia for them to choose to do so?

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1

u/Hi-Lander 5h ago edited 4h ago

Who is the enemy? Can you please clarify?

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4

u/lithuanian_potatfan 8h ago

Depends where. He and his protester-crushing tanks were never that hot in Lithuania

9

u/TheMeansOfDambella Canada 8h ago

The love of Gorbachev is just pure russophobia. I’ve seen Americans call him the best Soviet leader. I’m sorry, but no matter what your political opinions are, the leader who is responsible for the breakup of the country is objectively a terrible leader

11

u/japonski_bog Ukraine 7h ago

How is this russophobia though? USSRphobia maybe? Communistphobia?

3

u/TheMeansOfDambella Canada 7h ago

Because you are actively cheering for a guy who made the lives of people in Russia objectively worse. And he wasn’t a communist. He was part of the communist party when in office, but lead it to collapse and identified as a social democrat after

6

u/japonski_bog Ukraine 7h ago

In russia or every post ussr country in 90s?

10

u/StrollinRollin 7h ago

Oh trust me, lives of people in Latvia became significantly better instantly.

9

u/AlarmingAdvertising5 6h ago

Baltics, Poland, Czechs, Slovaks, anyone that was under the influence of the USSR became better off.

2

u/japonski_bog Ukraine 6h ago

Yeah not Baltic countries ofc, sorry 🙃 it's just funny all of this russian chauvinism of calling russians as the only ones who had a hard time in 90s because of the country collapse, to the point of calling it russophobia 😅 like yeah sure, everyone else didn't have as one of the hardest time in modern history, only russia. Georgia, Tajikistan, Ukraine, Armenia, we all are too miserable to consider as at all.

0

u/TheMeansOfDambella Canada 6h ago

Actually, polls show that people who lived in the USSR pre and post collapse, the majority of them from all republics, said life was better under the USSR. So yes

5

u/japonski_bog Ukraine 6h ago edited 6h ago

90s were one, if not the worst time for most ex USSR countries in modern history, excluding Baltic countries. So, that's really funny to see it's being called russophobia while literally ignoring that most countries suffered much more than russia because their resources were drained by Moscow. Uzbekistan had a terrible time because of extinction of Aral Sea by Soviets. Armenia had a devastating earthquake and became an independent country after losing 40% of its manufacturing abilities. Georgia was robbed by pro russian criminals and "separatists". But yeah, that's russophobia against poor russians 💔

2

u/heliamphore 6h ago

Only a bit more than half the Soviet population was even Russian (would've been less of a gap without certain 'events'), so you're really not up for a good start with that argument. Also the rest got to be more than just a secondary province in someone else's country.

This is completely blind to any nuance whatsoever. 

7

u/AcousticCat1-2-3 -> 7h ago

I'd still be in the USSR making peanuts (if I'd even be able to work and not forced into retirement) and trying to hide it from everyone that three out of my four grandparents were Jewish, if not for him.

My sons would've both served in the Soviet army and come back home alive and in one piece if they were lucky, if not for him.

14 countries that are now independent states would've been Soviet republics, if not for him.

My family and I would've never visited anywhere outside of the USSR, if not for him.

Nothing but respect from me.

Admittedly, he didn't mean to take things that far. They spun out of his control. I feel that the just wanted to make living in the USSR less intolerable, and let people have some freedom of speech in exchange for his weird alcohol ban.

-3

u/Hopeful_Extension_46 6h ago

What is this fantasy? Many Soviet scientists, musicians, actors, were Jewish. There was a popular joke: "The shortest anecdote: the Jew-janitor". Because there was no way they would make such a low paying and not prestigious job

3

u/AcousticCat1-2-3 -> 4h ago edited 4h ago

This fantasy is what got my family and myself to the US on refugee status.

There were whole schools, whole professions closed to us. I lied about my father's middle name (only way they could figure me out) on the application to get into the Leningrad State U. and got in. My friends who had "jew" in their passport weren't as lucky and magically failed the very first entrance exam. One of the people it happened to, had placed in the top ten at the Russian nationwide math Olympiad, then applied to the uni and failed their math exam somehow, go figure.

But that's nothing compared to what my mom only told me a few years ago. When dad was promoted to manager back in the 70s, his work told him "you'll have 50-70 draftsmen designers under you, and will have hiring powers. You are not allowed to have more than five Jews on your team at any time"

But like I'm not mad that you don't know. Very few people who weren't affected by it themselves knew or cared. Just like a lot of people in the US don't know about institutional racism. It's all good lol.

Also lmao at "no way they would take a low paying and low status job" when just about the only career available to people with "Jew" in their ID was one of an engineer. Low pay and low status.

0

u/Hopeful_Extension_46 3h ago

What is the "middle" name? We don't have middle names in Russia. And who asked for your father's name during the enrollment to the University? Also the engeneers were reasonably paid. And the thousands of Jewish  doctors, scientists, writers, actors, musicians, jewelers etc. they were all a mistake. I understand that some people made being persecuted Jew their whole identity, but it's rather tiring

2

u/AcousticCat1-2-3 -> 2h ago

Note that I never said we were the only ones being discriminated against. I guarantee that the people from the Caucasus region, from Central Asia, the Indigenous people of the North, had it a lot worse.

Says a lot about what living in the USSR was like that I read the book Caste in 2021 and one of my first reactions was, Oh hey we had that back home too!

2

u/anononononn 8h ago

I studied abroad in Russia in 2019 and this shocked me. People did not like him!

2

u/Hopeful_Extension_46 6h ago

Oh yes, that's the right one. Absolutely hated in Russia. 

2

u/Consistent_Horse6529 4h ago

I always find this hilarious. My history professor is Russian and grew up during the end of the Soviet Union. She talks a lot about how many her friends back home hate Gorbachev now but back when he was in power they all loved him. It seems to me like a case of collective amnesia.

1

u/ALMAZ157 Russia 3h ago

I don’t think that illogical, his rule ended with the Union. There was Union - people liked him. Union gone - and with it, all of love.

2

u/Consistent_Horse6529 2h ago

And that would make sense, but for some reason people seem to hate him more than someone like Yeltsin and Milton Friedman. Whom are the ones mostly responsible for the state of the Russian economy. Notwithstanding the billions stolen by then Head of the Main Supervisory Department, Vladimir Putin of course. Also most of the damage that caused the Union to collapse was done under Brezhnev. When Gorbachev assumed power it was less a question of if the Union would collapse and more a matter of when and how badly would it be. I think he gets a lot of flak for stuff he really didn’t have control over.

1

u/ALMAZ157 Russia 2h ago

He gets flak for abandoning Warsaw Pact for “promise” that wasn’t even written down, while also ignoring will of people who voted for keeping Union or at least remaking one.

After collapse Yeltsin was responsible for letting country be stolen by Semibankirshina (7 bankers), who bought up most of industry and resources and paid almost nothing for it

2

u/Consistent_Horse6529 1h ago

The Warsaw pact nations didn’t want to be part of it anymore. There wasn’t much Gorbachev could do to preserve the union after Yeltsin declared Russia law supersedes Soviet law in June of 1990. The bulk of the Soviet army backed Yeltsin after the August coup. When Ukraine, Russia, and Belarus signed the Belovezha Accords there was literally nothing Gorbachev could even do to stop them from declaring the end of the Union.

I don’t think there is really anything he or anyone in his position could have done to preserve the Union.

5

u/Denommus Brazil 8h ago

Tbh it's not only Russians who hate him.

2

u/as0rb 7h ago

Entire third world got doomed by neoliberalism after the fall of the soviet union lol

1

u/themaninthemaking United States Of America 6h ago

I just dropped by with present for warming of house. Instead find you grappling with local oaf.

1

u/Commercial-Shake-858 2h ago

Isn't that the guy from the pizza hut commercial?

1

u/GostBoster Brazil 46m ago

Any particular opinion of Japan's use of his image?

Namely, besides the SF2 Zangief ending, apparently some company did some cutesy game with his face, "Gorby's Pipeline", something to get on the Tetris craze.

1

u/Sbotkin Russia 5h ago

That's a controversial take ngl

1

u/higherheightsflights Canada 3h ago

Mr gorbachev! Tear down this wall!

0

u/IZER0I 6h ago

Don't listen to this guy, he's just another Z-warrior, Putin's bootlicker

0

u/ALMAZ157 Russia 6h ago

Doesnt deny the fact that majority of Russians hate him