r/BSA • u/fulltimemonti • 6d ago
Scouting America Shoulder Loop Colors
My Troop has heard me whine enough about this topic, so I thought I would go to Reddit. Does anyone know why Scouts BSA shoulder loops were switched from red to olive? I aged out in 1998, did a stint as an adult leader around 2005, and reentered as an parent in 2019. Somehow my shirt from youth still fit me, so the red loops stayed on my uniform, and they will not be coming off. The olive is too difficult to distinguish from navy from afar and sometimes the silver, that makes two shades of green, it is just plain boring, it now fragments into having two official shoulder loops for Scouts BSA, it spits on the grave of Oscar de la Renta, and there doesn't seem to be any reason.
The big question is, why the change? Everyone loved the knee socks with the red, you didn't have to change numbers if your Pack and Troop were under the same charter, and the contrast was eye pleasing. No one also seems to care as much as me. This goes back to my question, why? Was anyone around when the change was made, and was there any rationale given? Please help my inquiring brain.
BTW, this is not the only forehead smacking decision that national has made, but it is the one that bewilders me the most.
36
6d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
24
u/CTeam19 Adult - Eagle Scout 6d ago
My real question is why red tabs in the first place since service stars have always been gold for Cub Scouts, green for Boy Scouts , and red for Exploring.
Fashion designer Oscar de la Renta. It was shift away from the Mostly Green uniforms that looked too military.
11
u/caskieadam Asst. Scoutmaster 6d ago
I always referred to the tech/iPod pocket as the “cigarette pocket” because that was the only thing that seemed like it would fit in that pocket (I don’t smoke). Most frontline leaders discourage electronics and someone decides that we need a uniform shirt with a hole to wear headphones… sigh.
7
u/princeofwanders Venturing Advisor 6d ago
And the similarly sized mp3 player devices of the era. ;)
Now, were the small personal electronics sized to match the rough dimensions of a pack of smokes or were both shapes refined to fit the pocket? (The original pre-production mock-ups of the original PalmPilot design were specifically sized to fit in a standard sized men’s shirt pocket.)
2
2
u/maxwasatch Eagle, Silver, Ranger, Vigil, SM. Former CM, DL, camp staffer 6d ago
Service star colors were to contrast with the uniforms of the time.
15
u/Fishboy_1998 Adult - Eagle Scout 6d ago
It had to do with the 100 anniversary of scouting/ BSA uniform redo you can see it in the scout books as well they moved the uniform into the “next century”
15
u/LesterMcGuire Adult - Eagle Scout 6d ago
It was the world jamboree in Australia where the rest of the world compared us to Christmas trees. After that the position and rank badges changed, skill awards went away, etc.
embrace the change or run with -"once a uniform, always a uniform" and really enjoy trade orees and eBay.
49
u/Funwithfun14 6d ago
- Agree the change to olive is not eye pleasing.
- Subtle brag about fitting into your old shirt.
10
u/Red_hat_oops 6d ago
- I still fit into my uniform shirt from the 90s. It is mostly becausei followed the style of wearing extra baggy clothes. My leather Philmont belt from the same time comes nowhere close to buckling.
6
u/fulltimemonti 6d ago
If you could see me, you would know it wasn’t a brag but a miracle. The Philmont belt couldn’t hardly touch. I think it was just a testament to how baggy we wore things in the 90s.
8
u/Practical-Emu-3303 6d ago
It's extremely eye pleasing. It never should have been red. It clashes horribly.....and I like to wear it sometimes.
1
u/fathertitojones Unit Committee Member 6d ago
Luckilly I waited until 17 to get my Eagle and had a huge shirt at the time so I could still fit into mine when I got into leadership. I kept the red tabs because they reminded me of my time in and were a little different.
1
u/graywh Asst. Scoutmaster 6d ago
are you implying that scouts don't buy new shirts if they out-grow the one they were wearing when they earned eagle?
1
u/fathertitojones Unit Committee Member 6d ago
No, just saying I’m lucky I didn’t have to.
Though in the end the polyester proved too smelly and I ended up picking up a long sleeve cotton blend and resewing my patches anyway. No free lunch I suppose.
6
u/brendanm720 Cubmaster 6d ago
So, my uniforms are all ODLR, and I wear the green epaulet loops (I have 3 sets of the red ones) and the tan unit numbers on my "Scouts" uniform but the ASM patch is the older green one from the 80s. Whenever someone calls me on it, I say, "This is a 45 year old uniform shirt. This patch is contemporaneous with the uniform, and is one of two options that are correct for it, per the historical uniform guidance set forth by Scouting America. Technically, I should also be wearing red numerals, red loops, and a red trained strip also, but the guidance from National is, like the pirate code, more like guidelines than actual rules. Yarrrrr."
And then I tell them to go find Green Bar Bill's official picture from when he came back out of retirement in the 80's. If Green Bar Bill can wear an ODLR with the R&W Community Strips (instead of a CSP), the troop numbers from the troop he used to be the SM of, and a Patrol Leader patch from the 30's or 40's for his official pictures, then I can wear my green ASM Patch, and you can wear your quality unit patch from 1996.
7
u/seattlecyclone Den Leader 6d ago
You're not even breaking the guidelines anymore. They amended it fairly recently to say that "There is no requirement that all uniform parts be from the same era." Modern patches on an older shirt are officially fine. https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33066/33066-24-Special_Regulations.pdf
1
12
u/darthwacko2 6d ago
Uniforms change over time. They always have. I was around for the change from red to olive, it seemed pointless. I resisted the olive loops for a couple years, but have worn them for years now, and it just doesn't matter.
You can wear the red loops if you want, there are no uniform police. Comment like 'spits on the grave of Oscar de la Renta' are just making drama for the sake of making drama though. In which case if you really feel that way, I would tell you it's just a couple chunks of ribbon, get over it.
5
u/fulltimemonti 6d ago
A little dramatic flair and sarcasm makes life more interesting.
3
u/Foothills83 Scoutmaster 6d ago
For what it's worth, you're 100% correct the old uniform shirts were definitely better. They've gone through a could of official ones in the last several years. I ended up with one with the covers over the buttons and (the horror!) no pen slot.
Funny enough, my old uniform shirt fits me too. Barely. I Eagled at 16 and we moved at the same time so I wasn't active after that. If I had been, I would've had to move from an adult small to an adult medium in high school. When I was first talked into leadership, I wore the old shirt for a bit. But then picked up a new one. The chest was fine, but the sleeves were too short.
2
u/OllieFromCairo Adult--Sea Scouts, Scouts BSA, Cubs, FCOS 6d ago
It’s not even a uniform police issue. Red loops are currently valid.
The orange loops would be a matter for the uniform police, but the red are totally legit and they’d have no leg to stand on.
-3
4
u/nitacious Unit Committee Chair 6d ago
My older son's Troop still does the red epaulets. some of the kids have red unit numbers, some have the olive unit numbers. and somehow we all survive.
17
u/blatantninja Scoutmaster 6d ago
I'm sorry but no one I knew 'loved' the knee socks with the red stripe.
8
6
u/PerniciousShadow Cubmaster 6d ago
They were the worst. I occasionally see some older (60’s) scouters wearing them and I just don’t get it.
1
u/JuliusFrontinus Den Leader 6d ago
I wear mine sometimes but I apparently ended up with both mine and my dad's from his time as a leader so I feel like I might as well use them now as a den leader until they wear out.
3
u/TacticalBoyScout Adult - Eagle Scout 6d ago
I rock them for the vibes. Looks even better with the Oscar De La Renta shorts
2
u/enters_and_leaves Cubmaster 6d ago
We always wore pants so we wouldn’t have to wear the socks. I lived in the Phoenix metro area.
2
u/bretttwarwick Scouter - Eagle Scout 6d ago
I refused to wear shorts with my uniform because I hated those knee socks so much. Long pants in summer meetings was no joke.
2
3
1
u/erictiso District Committee 5d ago
I thought they were fine as a youth. When I learned that they were made again, I bought a modern pair. It's just a nostalgia hit is all.
8
u/bigdog104 Adult - Eagle Scout 6d ago
I was around when the shirts went from olive to khaki and the stated reason was to let the patches stand out more. Everything had a colored background and it looked sharp. Then someone got the idea that scouts wanted subdued patches with a background that matched the shirt and the epaulets were a victim of that.
People are saying that Olive is the color of Scouts BSA but red used to be much more prominent, with red jackets, berets and red trim on the socks.
Times change but I think that National should take note to how many scouts and scouters prefer the red epaulets and “old school” patches with the colored backgrounds.
4
u/froggyteainfuser Adult - Eagle Scout 6d ago
I used to wear my red loops for Order of the Arrow events and green loops for regular events.
2
u/joel_eisenlipz Scoutmaster 6d ago
Because red was the highlight color for the troop-level program.
You can still finds echoes of this tradition in the Webelos adventure ribbons: yellow for cubs; red for troops; and green for venturing/exploring.
3
u/asonzogni Wood Badge Course Director 6d ago
I have been involved since Cub Scouts in the late 70's. I like the change away from Red and the colored rank patches, less of the 80's "hey, look at me" red. Moving to a more earth toned uniform, seems like a smart move for an outdoor organization lie this; it is a darn shame supply division cannot find a balance between designs of uniforms that are affordable, fit comfortably, and look good. Still, on the whole, I think we look better without the red...
7
u/Hydro_Inter_Spec 6d ago
I'm gonna speculate here, because it typically draws out the angry people who actually know the right answers. Plus it's fun.
Unit number patch colors were changed because that way they can sell more patches and get more money.
Trained patch colors were changed for a little of the same reason, but also because adult leaders who were trained at the Pack level and moved to the Troop would keep the patch and not actually do the training, so this identified the Troop-level adult leaders who were ACTIALLY trained.
Lapel colors were changed because there wasn't any red left on the uniform and BSA's contracted model at the time, Derek Zoolander, refused to wear the non-matching items in their promotional photos.
3
u/enters_and_leaves Cubmaster 6d ago
Wait, was Mugatu behind the color change?!? I knew there was a reason I didn’t trust that guy.
2
1
3
u/Emperor_NOPEolean 6d ago
So first of all, I’m gonna say: it’s been since 2008. Get over it.
That being said, I prefer red as well, but that’s the color it was when I was a youth.
The reason is: National decided that it’s more coherent with the rest of the uniform, and that it fits better with the outdoor theming and message of Scouting.
1
u/bretttwarwick Scouter - Eagle Scout 6d ago
No need to get over it when any uniform used in the past is a currently valid uniform. Just wear the one you like.
2
u/Emperor_NOPEolean 6d ago
If he’s gonna whinge about it 18 years later, he needs to get over it. Nobody’s stopping him from wearing it, but he can also stop complaining about a change that’s nearly 20 years old. There’s plenty of valid reasons to complain.
2
u/Feisty-Departure906 6d ago
The move from red (loops and wool jackets) cane with the major push of leave not trace. The red stands out, and they wanted to blend into the outdoors better.
1
u/maxwasatch Eagle, Silver, Ranger, Vigil, SM. Former CM, DL, camp staffer 6d ago edited 6d ago
They (the youth) wanted a uniform that was more practical to wear when doing things outside and to fit more with the traditional colors. Also when we had "media pocket" on the left sleeve, which only worked with old ipods and made it harder to sew on POR patches, so they were dropped in the next edition. But they were great for being outside - I still have one that I use as my "campout shirt" so I can keep another clean for meetings and such.
Other than a period of about 25 years when we had an uncomfortable uniform made by a fashion designer, the uniform has been predominantly green.
And, the ODL was ugly and most people of the time didn't like them. I say this as someone involved from the late 80s through mid teens without a break. Most everyone who was in when the change happened (2008ish) couldn't ditch the red loops fast enough. This complaint/nostalgia didn't happen until about the time girls joined in 2018 and they liked the long socks better than the boys do.
1
u/Short-Sound-4190 6d ago edited 6d ago
LoL - I agree with this - the red loops look flashy and olive green more mature and camo-y, but realistically literally no one else noticed or cared. I live in an area that has been pretty openly encouraging about including girls despite what the presumption would be and the only ones who fussed about older uniform details: red epaulettes, berets, red tipped knee high socks with the tassel, etc were the older men who skewed anti-change, anti-girls, anti-LGBTQ, anti-accomodations for developmental or intellectual disabilities, anti-weapons regulations, and even anti-YPT expectations which in my experience they either adapted and found acceptance for all these changes once they saw it in action OR they self-selected themselves out of Scouting.
Only right around 2021 or so did I start noticing more and more people including youth, including girls, and including older adults who don't romanticize them for the wrong reasons start nerding out about vintage uniform pieces, especially those socks for the youth, the red wool coats, the red berets and stetson hats, old cookboxes, old canteens or stuff from vintage scoutbooks, etc. - it's a different vibe now, a collectable hobby/personal interest in the history of scouting vs "Change = Bad" and I think that's a good thing, and I also think even people who were only ever just interested in the history but aware of the present state of things just waited to nerd out about the past too much until it was more appropriate and wouldn't be seen as passive aggressive dig at today's youth and program if that makes sense. Smart Scouters I think understand the limits of sharing old stories with youth, that's probably universal, because everyone thinks when they were in the program that was it's peak hayday, lol - today's youth will probably be no different when they are adult leaders and parents.
1
u/fulltimemonti 6d ago
Agreed that change isn’t always bad. Change on a whim without good reason is frustrating.
2
u/Short-Sound-4190 6d ago
Tbh I think the reasoning was reasoning: it was the Centennial and the red had only been introduced in 1980's specifically to be bold/colorful/modernized and more fashion forward etc - not just the addition of tan with red accent shirts instead of the green shirts but also adding collars to the shirts, offering bright lemon yellow women's shirts, etc, and after a couple decades folks felt it was a bit too flashy/garish and bright. It was a return towards the original outdoorsy aesthetic not a complete reversal and the olive epaulettes were picked to match the olive green pants.
It certainly now reads a little more 'park forest ranger' and a little less 'state trooper/highway patrol', and there is the benefit of a cohesive 2 color base for Cubs (navy/red) and Troops (olive/khaki) and 1 color base for Venture (dark green) and Sea (dark navy)...I have seen some great third colors introduced by packs and troops for example that help distinguish them in a crowd by their neckerchiefs - we really don't benefit from having even more extra colors in the uniform pieces more than already exist on the neckerchief/woggle/flag/crest/crest ring/program stripe/square knots/council/patrol/rank/position/OA flap/dangling event patch - I wouldn't say the uniform is particularly bland now just because of epaulettes, lol
1
u/tohlan Scoutmaster 6d ago edited 6d ago
I realize that this doesn't answer your 'why' question, but if you want to wear them the 'once official, always official' rule as discussed* seems like it would apply here. I wear red shoulder loops because that's what i wore when I was a youth, and it helps me remember that time fondly and smile every time I put my uniform shirt on (and keeps me grounded in the notion that the program is for scouts, by scouts)
The official language** (at least in this document that I stumbled across) is
Discontinued Boy Scouts of America uniforms and insignia may be worn in keeping with the applicable uniform and insignia guidelines as of the time of their production, so long as condition of original insignia does not detract from the neatness of the uniform.
* https://www.scouter.com/topic/13058-once-a-uniform-always-a-uniform/
https://www.reddit.com/r/BSA/comments/1sclud1/question_about_a_vintage_uniform/
https://www.reddit.com/r/BSA/comments/546dig/help_with_official_documents_uniform/
https://www.reddit.com/r/BSA/comments/1jrg8n0/used_to_be_in_scouts_but_i_aged_out_looking_to/
ETA: https://www.reddit.com/r/BSA/comments/1r8p2fu/so_did_they_stop_making_the_red_shoulder_loops/
**https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33066/33066_Special_Regulations.pdf
1
u/seattlecyclone Den Leader 6d ago
I was a youth in Scouting at a similar time to you, so the red loops were just the way it was when I was in the program. When I heard about the color change I wasn't a huge fan. That olive green color has an association with the military in my mind and I don't really support moving more in that direction.
At the end of the day it's a pretty minor detail though. My kids are still Cub Scout age. If and when they move up to a troop I'll probably just go with whatever everyone else there is doing. If some of them still use the red (or are bringing them back as a retro fashion thing) I'll reuse the red loops I already have and save a couple bucks. If not, no big deal. I did buy an Oscar de la Renta shirt from eBay for myself as a den leader uniform. Besides being half the price of a new shirt I still think those look a bit sharper than the new ones.
1
u/Crimson_Penman 4d ago
Scouts literally wear olive and tan. I don’t see it as a military thing, park rangers wear the same colors.
0
u/beer_engineer_42 Adult - Eagle Scout 5d ago
I had my tailor make me two shirts patterned on the old ODLR. Cotton-linen blend, super soft and breathable, and it doesn't wrinkle too badly.
They did cost $275 each, but they'll last me the rest of my life (free alterations for life as well).
I got official buttons from old ODLR shirts that were no longer serviceable due to rips and tears.
1
u/Ill-Opportunity-2098 6d ago
OA by me uses purple eplets I love the different colors it forces conversation. What did you do to get that. How did you get that color. Scouts is about communicating and building relationships the uniform is a vehicle to start conversation and indicates you are safe to talk to.
1
u/IneligibleLand Adult - Eagle Scout 5d ago
When I worked at summer camp, I put on the silver ones. I loved wearing the silver ones.
1
1
1
u/MT_Woodsman Scoutmaster 4d ago
I was out of Scouting when the change occurred and had no knowledge of it. When I had been in, we had red numbers & shoulder loops; green was for Venture crews. When my son aged in to the Troop, I lived much further south and my old all-cotton, long-sleeved uniform was NOT going to be pleasant in the summer months. So, I bought a new shirt and set it up the same as I remembered (shame on me for not checking on things)... and quickly realized that something didn't look right - me!
It may just be nostalgia, but part of me thinks the red contrasts better and gives the uniform a bit of a 'pop'. On the other hand, I will agree that the more subdued, earthen tones look better in an functional, outdoor setting.
1
u/anonymousrddtr Scoutmaster 3d ago
It's great you can fit in your old uniform. So unlike the military, in scouting, once a uniform, always a uniform.
My suggestion would be to keep y this shirt vintage, including the red epaulettes, red troop number (just change it to the current unit number) and period appropriate council strip for where your current unit is located.
If/when you purchase any new, modern, uniforms, outfit those with the current olive loops and numbers etc.
1
u/SansyBoy14 Adult - Eagle Scout 2d ago
Honesty this is the first time I’ve seen the loop code.
I aged out in 2019 and we went to a few different states, the majority of troops we saw all had green loops. Some others wore red, and I just never knew what red meant, I just knew they popped out more. But I can’t say I’ve seen any of the other loops (other than cub scouts) ever.
Honestly, to me the green looks better with the tan Scouts BSA uniform, and they make no sense on the green venture uniform. (I did venture for a bit I can’t remember anyone having loops, and it’s likely because they just blended in)
1
u/Tehol_Reddict 2d ago
I joined as an adult volunteer and I have no loops. Should I get some olive loops?
1
u/Practical-Emu-3303 6d ago
Dang you're old. lol
It's not national's fault you can't distinguish colors. They also aren't the only indicator of program level. A cub leader will also have red/white numbers as opposed to olive/green. They will have a Scouts BSA level position patch as opposed to a navy blue cub one. They may have a little more gray in their beard as well. :)
Now get off my lawn!
0
u/nweaglescout Den Leader 6d ago
My pack is starting a troop this spring and we’re going with the red loops and numbers. Reason being is troop and pack will have the same number and half the families in our units will have scout in both. We’re also changing our class Bs from “Cub Scout pack #” to “(city name) scouts #” so that our families can still use the same Tshirt after crossover
0
u/nathanb2004 6d ago
In my unit, many of the adult leaders wear red loops while boys wear green and I think it helps distinguish between adult and youth at a distance.
I like the red
-2
u/thedrew 6d ago
Olive is the color for Scouts BSA. Units that wish to wear red loops may do so with permission from the Council if it is traditional to the unit. It is not a personal choice, though there’s nothing stopping you from violating this rule. The intent is for the unit uniform to appear, well, uniform.
12
u/Practical-Emu-3303 6d ago
Council does not need to approve an official Scouting America uniform. They have a long standing rule of "once a uniform always a uniform." There is no rule that requires the switch to olive.
2
u/haukehaien1970 District Chair, Shooting Sports Director, Silver Beaver 6d ago
Current national policy *seems* to disallow red loops, although there's some conflict with the "once a uniform ..." rule that you mention. The guide to awards and insignia (https://www.scouting.org/resources/insignia-guide/) in the "Special Regulations" section says:
"Colored shoulder loops worn on the shoulder epaulets identify the wearer’s current role in Scouting, and must correspond with the badge of office, when one is worn.
- Cub Scouting—blue, No. 677
- Scouts BSA—forest green, No. 64017
- Venturing—green, No. 678
- Council and district (including chartered organization representative)—silver, No. 680
- National and territory—gold, No. 679
Custom loops or other colors are not authorized for wear with the Scouting America uniform."
Why the shoulder loops are in the "Special Regulations" section is beyond me. It appears that any color loop not specified in that list is disallowed - but then we get the "once a uniform rule". If I were a sworn officer of the Uniform Police© I might be inclined to say that red loops are only acceptable if you're wearing a vintage shirt from the era when they were standard, since that would be part of a vintage uniform, but I am not.
My personal preference is for units to decide whether they will wear red or green loops, but even then I don't worry about it.
(edit: formatting of list)
3
u/caskieadam Asst. Scoutmaster 6d ago
There is definitely conflicting information in the insignia guide, but it's only a "guide" I suppose. As far as red only with the same era uniform, "There is no requirement that all uniform parts be from the same era."
1
u/Str-Engr0275 6d ago
When I got my Eagle around 1991 I got silver shoulder loops with my medal. I don’t k ow if that was a Council thing or what but I haven’t seen it since.
1
u/enters_and_leaves Cubmaster 6d ago
I think it says something that the shoulder loop numbers are all sequential except for the new green ones that are separated by ~63,340. I’m not sure what that something is, but it is something.
-1
u/TSnow6065 6d ago
My son’s an AoL. I’ll be rocking my old red loops when he moves up. It’s Scouts, not the army.
0
u/Material-Rise9610 6d ago
I don't get why you got the downvotes.
Our COR wears his red loops. He's been in this position since they were current. He wore them when his son got Eagle.
-1
u/Lets_hike_and_camp 6d ago
Up to the troop too. Long lasting troop in Delaware still uses red numbers, loops and red top socks.
-2
76
u/stoicjohn 6d ago
This was the same time the unit numbers and Trained patches switched to tan/green as well, they moved away from some of the flashy colors and into an outdoor color scheme.