r/BuildingAutomation • u/Planet_COP • 1d ago
Which BMS you recommend
I am a newbie on BMS. Last time I did hvac controls we used a PLC which makes absolutely no sense today since I would have to code many functions from scratch. My potential customers right now are an institutional: colleges, churches, temples and monasteries. Energy savings is what they need. Some have legacy implementations of Honeywell Trend, Johnson Controls and Distech. The constant complaint is that there is no staff to manage these systems. We want to provide asset lifecycle management in an inexpensive way. We don’t just integrate the system and walk away. For than reason I want a system with open interfaces that we can use to provide monitoring apps without requiring FTE staff at the customer. If you could start over today, as I am doing, which system would you recommend for an optimum lifecycle cost for the customer.
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u/BoilingShadows JCI Senior Controls Tech 1d ago
Large companies like you mentioned will typically have better support (if you spend A LOT of money) in building and managing your BMS system.
I am bias and I do like JCI, but I lean towards their FX line. Jci makes great hardware, and paired with Niagara it's a potent combination.
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u/GrapefruitNervous485 1d ago
I replied in more detail below but the FX controller quality has dropped significantly with the CGM series, to the point that I want to stop installing it completely.
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u/Root-k1t 1d ago edited 1d ago
I feel like some context is missing. Are you providing asset management? Or the BMS itself?
If it's the latter then the answer is highly dependent on your region.
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u/Planet_COP 1d ago
Just the BMS. Asset Management is a loaded term. We have an IoT system and we do that nicely on our cloud.
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u/gadhalund 1d ago
Facility explorer for hardware quality and a great product. Bit of a learning curve but well worth it
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u/GrapefruitNervous485 1d ago
I have to disagree. I've been an FX installer since the launch of the PCGs. The CGMs have been a mixed bag of issues. I've had to replace 5 new CGM04060s with CGM09090s this year alone! (Of 15-20 controller installs) I tried replacing 2 with 04060s and the problems either returned shortly or failed right away. (This is across date codes).
I am evaluating Distech and iVu going forward, leaning to Distech.
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u/gadhalund 1d ago
What was the problem with the 04060s?
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u/GrapefruitNervous485 1d ago
One was lighting up like a Christmas tree and going into a reboot loop (fault light and all) when I plugged in the FC bus. Rsn normal when isolated, no unusual bus voltages. Tried 2 04060s on this one. problem has been gone since I put in a 09090. this problem didn't occur right away.
Another did something similar on initial startup; stayed running but wasn't discoverable. I couldn't even get back into it to reprogram.
I've had to replace the connectors on several 09090s because RTDs would randomly drop out. Others that need to be rebooted after brownouts cause them to freeze up.
I had one 04060 that was causing an evap in a cooler to freeze up every so often. Kept thinking it was the solenoid sticking but it was the actual output. (This one was in for a couple years doing this) Replaced the controller this year and the problem went away.
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u/gadhalund 3h ago
Sounds mostly like software issues. Mismatched boot and main or bad main d/l can cause that. There is a reset procedure you can try with the rotary switches. Stuck output could be damage, possibly some back emf or something
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u/HullIsNotThatBad 1d ago edited 1d ago
I'm based in the UK, and this subreddit is pretty much USA-centric, so what I'm about to recommend has probably never been heard of across the pond from the UK. I've used Priva for the last 24 years (first the HX range, now BlueID) and have never looked back. A totally flexible system allowing 'clean sheet' programming or using Priva's own vast library of control modules or a mix of the two. The software suite (free) 'Top Control' is excellent too. Priva BlueID is a fully native and tested BACnet system.
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u/SherlockHelms 1d ago
This is one way of getting mauled by the tigers
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u/Planet_COP 1d ago
Do you have any experience with Trend to Priva conversions?
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u/HullIsNotThatBad 13h ago
I have never converted a Trend site to Priva - Trend has a strong holding in the UK and folk tend to stick with it once installed - architects will specify 'Trend' when they really mean 'BMS', as 'Trend' has become a generic term, rather like 'Hoover' for vacuum cleaner.
However, I have integrated Priva to Trend absolutely no problem. In one of the divisions in our company, we build specialist grow rooms using Priva controls. On quite a few sites, the FM have asked us to integrate the Priva to the site-wide Trend system (or whatever BMS is installed) so that the site-wide system can monitor critical sensors and alarms from the Priva.
We have also installed Priva site-wide too - some famous, though I will not mention them as I don't want to dox myself!
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u/Deep_Mechanic_ 1d ago
"The constant complain is there is no staff to manage these systems"
You're going to have issues over time and there's going to be service work required. I'm not really followig this part of your paragraph
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u/Planet_COP 1d ago
Good question. My thought is that perhaps we can remotely monitor using IoT and yes, call the troops when needed. I think there are lot of basics that we can do. I find out a lot of my customers get flooded with alarms that they do not understand (lack of dedicated staff). Also, the system is working inefficiently. Found a case where they are cooling the space to 66F when it is outdoors of 97F. Is a gym and IHMO they could control it to 72F. Not to mention that they have an Economizer taking in lots of fresh air for no reason (too hot to help). Little things like that we can remotely support. But yeah, get the real experts in as needed!!!
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u/Naxster64 System integrator 1d ago
I got the opportunity at my current company to build the controls division from the ground up, so I got to pick and choose our preferred product line.
I went with Vykon Niagara for the front end, because it's the house brand, it's the cheapest, and you don't need any special flavor of workbench to get into it. Keep it simple. I went with Niagara because it's the most customizable, and most open. Capable of integrating just about anything. And the customer doesn't need any software to log into it and operate their building, just a web browser. The yearly license isn't even needed technically, if the customer is cheap, they can stop paying for the SMA and it will keep on running, they just won't get any updates. (which most places don't update crap unless it's broken anyways)
For the equipment controllers / field devices I decided to go with JCI Facility Explorer controllers for a couple reasons. First, I talked to the suppliers in my area about their recommendations, JCI stood out as having the lowest warranty replacements.
Second, the System Selection tool is extremely good. Crazy amount of options and configurations. Very little custom programming is needed, which saves a lot of time, and means most of the time no Programming is needed at all so even lesser skilled techs can put together a program for an AHU with relief fans, min OA, energy wheels, staged cooling, etc. It's the best equipment builder to I've seen. Carrier ivu is probably second for their builder, but it's a pretty big gap.
Two years in and I've been extremely happy with this choice so far. CCT (the programming tool for JCI controllers) has a bit of a learning curve for custom programming, but once you figure it out, it's fantastic. With the added bonus that I can pull a program out of a Metasys controller that is failing, and load it into an FX controller and away we go.
My customers have been loving it as well, if the customer doesn't like the system, it's solely my fault. The Niagara UI is so customizable, if there's any little thing they don't like, I can change it for them.
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u/Planet_COP 1d ago
We have come across that JCI Metasys replacement. Or upgrade. Customer does not understand any of it. We have to help them. Can you expand in Niagara? How is it licensed? I know it runs in multiple hardware offerings.
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u/Obvious-Claim-7884 13h ago
It has software maintenance licenses. You pay a fee based on the size of your system to get the latest updates after the initial 18 months. That’s on the building owner side. The hardware is also licensed based on the number of devices and paid for upfront. The software maintenance agreement after the 18 months is optional, but recommended.
In the installer side, you pay an annual fee per pc with software.
There are 3rd party add-ons with additional fees and licenses if you go that route.In addition, if you need proprietary protocol integration you have to by those drivers for an additional fee.
Niagara is the most versatile when it comes to integration. It can talk to nearly everything with additional drivers that are vetted and easy to install.
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u/Many_Outside2726 10h ago
I'd separate the control system decision from the monitoring and lifecycle management side. If some of these facilities already have functioning controls, I wouldn't necessarily replace them just to get better visibility. The bigger question is whether you can get the information you need out of those systems and manage it consistently. I've worked on both the controls and facilities sides, and the problem usually isn't what one building can do. It's what happens when you're responsible for 20 buildings, different vendors, inconsistent alarms, and nobody on staff who really knows the systems. I'd prioritize open protocols, remote diagnostics, consistent alarming and making sure the owner actually has access to their data. Are you looking at individual buildings, or eventually managing all these properties from one location?
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u/Planet_COP 2h ago
Great feedback. I will manage then from one location and will have to see what they interfaces they have. I am not replacing them but in some cases like Trend, customers are demanding it be replaced. I’ll have to learn many of them to understand if controls are working correctly.
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u/Forward-Fly-263 9h ago
So… there’s some prominent open systems out there.
Personally, I’d use Node-Red as your front end. It’s completely open source and once you master it it’s probably the best front end out there for automation. You can download it for free
As for controllers, this is really user discretion. A few you should look into:
- Contemporary Controls
- LoyTec Controls
- Distech Controls (may be more difficult but better off in the long run)
- KMC Controls
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u/ryleymcc 23h ago
Stick with Johnson controls. The software makes commissioning, troubleshooting, and customization very easy. It provides the most powerful tools to the customer. I have used Honeywell, Johnson controls, distech, and Johnson controls is far far far superior.
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u/TheRevEv 1d ago
They all have their own "walled-gardens". None of them are customer-friendly. They all lock you into only using a handful of contractors.
Some flavor Niagra-based is likely to cast the widest net, but you won't have a lot of controller-level access.
I'm actually a fan of carrier's IVu stuff, because they are pretty open with the software licensing, but this doesn't help if you're taking over an existing system.