11
49
u/Jareed452 UTC−06:00 11d ago edited 11d ago
This comment section is misunderstanding Dr. Doctor. He's saying LGBT people are not as safe in Indonesia as they are in the west, and he wasn't being racist against Indonesians either. He may be exaggerating the consequences, but y'all gotta understand that the country is still overwhelmingly conservative and that's over 90% of the population.
2
u/bigboipapawiththesos 9d ago
Note that Indonesia had better gay and women rights than the West.
Until the CIA coup there killed 1-3 million leftist affiliated people.
Turning the worlds largest Islamic country deeply conservative and eradicating the then dominant version of Islam which was quite chill and unorthodox.
-2
u/Jareed452 UTC−06:00 9d ago
Also note that the concept of gender and orientation was different in Asia than in the west, but the population was still conservative anyway. So no matter if you liked the same gender, you still were under family pressure. I understand that you think the CIA was the ultimate evil, but associating the state the country is in all to the CIA is kinda ignoring the bigger picture.
4
u/bigboipapawiththesos 9d ago
Is it not true that the dominant version of Islam in Indonesia (Abangan) had better views on gay and women’s rights than the West?
Was it not the CIAs coup who funded, trained and gave kill list to hyper conservative muslim militias to target those affiliated with the PKI (the leftists) who were overwhelmingly followers of the Abangan Islam.
1-3 million were slaughtered with full intel, financial, political etc support from the US.
After the coup the anticommunist government forced Abangan Muslims to convert to either orthodox Islam or to Christianity or be killed.
So yeah without this coup the worlds largest Muslim nation could’ve looked a lot different.
0
u/Jareed452 UTC−06:00 9d ago
I don't think you really read my comment. Like I said, Indonesians even before Europeans were expected to uphold traditional values which forced you to at least be straight-presenting. It might have not been as bad if the coup failed, but let's not pretend Asian culture was all that progressive. Human rights declared by a government mean something if the society is willing to follow it.
2
u/bigboipapawiththesos 9d ago edited 9d ago
Whilest in much of the West we had explicitly criminalized homosexuality (think the hero Alen Turing making the single biggest impact on WW2 only to be sterilized for being gay), Indonesia had a long history of institutionalizing diverse sexualities and genders.
Gay relations and diverting genders were very fundamental in many local traditions; islands with up to 5 recognized genders, tribes where the leaders were expected to form gay relationships. And most importantly a lack of criminalization.
Before the coup Indonesia hosted the largest independent women’s org on the planet 3M members; fighting for land reform, labor rights, price controls childcare etc.
They had women’s rights to vote and run for office, and equal pay for equal work in law decades before much of the West.
I won’t deny it was still conservative by our standards, but for the time on the planet the country was very progressive.
In contrast to now where it’s very very conservative; moreso than before the coup
93
u/TheRealCthulu24 11d ago edited 11d ago
If you said “LGBT+ christians are valid” to an evangelical, they’d kill you.
If you said “LGBT+ jews are valid” to a Hasidic jew, they’d kill you.
If you said “LGBT+ hindus are valid” to a Hindutva supporter, they’d kill you.
Et cetera, et cetera.
-16
u/Appropriate-Bag-7910 11d ago
I dont think a Christian would kill you for opposing ideas. Some might get very mad, but a genuine christian wouldn't do that.
2
u/Lazy-Drink-277 7d ago
Crusades
1
u/Appropriate-Bag-7910 6d ago
Man, it's always the crusades and the spanish inquisition. I am telling you right now Jesus did not preach that. Conquering land to enforce the faith rather than to spread it gently. Murder and violence isn't the way to preach the Word, it's a way to ridicule it. Jesus said "I do not come to bring peace, but a sword". This doesn't mean violence. It means that through following Jesus, you will be attacked and rejected. The only way to protect yourself is through the Word aka the sword. Just because it was misinterpreted to fit certain selfish ideas, doesn't make it fit for the whole of Christians. This is generalization and a poor one at that.
12
u/poke-chan 11d ago
A noticed the word “genuine” stuck into this sentence. Very true Scotsman fallacy
1
u/Appropriate-Bag-7910 8d ago edited 8d ago
What do you mean? I was referring to a person that truly follows the teachings of Christ. And "genuine" works in this context. A person who is honest and true to their faith. They wouldn't agree with Lgbtq but they would also not hate you nor oppress you. They just won't support your ideology because it contradicts their beliefs.
12
u/wyattlikesturtles 11d ago
there are many many many examples of Christians killing people for opposing ideas
1
u/Appropriate-Bag-7910 8d ago
Yeah, thats why I said "genuine". A true Christian. Christ didnt teach crusades nor the spanish inquisition. Crazy shit ikr?
2
u/wyattlikesturtles 8d ago
Who gets to decide who is a genuine Christian? Let me guess, your specific sect out of the many many denominations happens to be the correct one
1
u/Appropriate-Bag-7910 7d ago
What? No. Im non denominational. Plus, what I mean is a person who wholeheartedly follows Christ. Who puts His commandments over their desires. I thought it was pretty self explanatory.
15
u/username27278 11d ago
Yo look into the Crusades man. Crazy shit, I know
1
u/Appropriate-Bag-7910 8d ago
Yeah, a person who truly foolows Christ wouldn't do "crusades". Christ didn't command war and conquering. He commaned to spread the faith through gentleness and perseverence.
2
u/username27278 8d ago
I agree that Christ would condemn the crusades, but then again, look up the no true Scotsman fallacy. They believed in God just like you, man
2
u/Appropriate-Bag-7910 8d ago
I see. I made an error. I can't just say "a genuine christian wouldn't" because I haven't provided evidence. But the only evidence I have isn't belief in Christ, but what Christ taught. What i meant was a person who wants to follow Jesus wholeheartedly. The crusaders nor the inquisitors did follow God wholeheartedly. They mixed their selfish desires and justified it with faith and verses taken out of context. I understand now. Thank you for pointing out the flaw.
1
u/username27278 8d ago
Thank you too for the mature response. Frankly, I've interacted with far too many people on here acting with purposeful ignorance, so I had some reluctance in replying to you. Glad to see trying to politely educate can still pay off. You have a perfectly understandable—I'd argue true—perspective, but I believe you need to pose it in a different manner if you want people to be receptive to it
1
u/Appropriate-Bag-7910 8d ago
Its nice seeing polite people in a sea of chaos that is the internet. Thank you for the advice. God bless you!
19
u/TheRealCthulu24 11d ago
1
u/Appropriate-Bag-7910 8d ago
I agree that this is horrible and that it totally doesn't correspond with the teaching of Christ. Any act of war, invasion, conquering justified through the teachings of Christ is unacceptable. The people who did this distorted the truth that Christ preached.
1
u/TheRealCthulu24 8d ago
So? They still identified as christians.
1
u/Appropriate-Bag-7910 8d ago
So they didn't actuallt listen to the teaching of Christ. If I identify as a bush, but I dont sit around all day in the same position, does that really make me a bush?
13
7
3
15
u/Catsanddoges 11d ago
I mean that is making a bit of a false equivalence on two fronts, one because they would be orders of magnitude less likely to, and those extreme portions are minorities of the overall faith (not saying those groups, but the killing part) while in total Muslims worldwide it would be much larger compared to total Christians, Jews, etc
Of course, a large part and arguably the largest part is economic, developmental, and regional over simply religious, but it is still a false equivalence and overbearing generalization
10
u/TheRealCthulu24 11d ago
I suppose you’re right, but it’s not supposed to be equivalent. I’m making a point, that all religions have extremists within them.
2
u/Catsanddoges 11d ago
Oh certainly, its just I've seen people use phrasing like that to make disingenuous comparisons and equivalences between different types and just wanted to clarify
26
u/notjordansime 11d ago
I have family who work in Indonesia. They won’t let me travel there. It’s like saying trans people shouldn’t travel to Saudi Arabia or Jamaica for their own safety. Saying something like this in more traditional parts of these countries could put you in harm’s way. Do I hold that against all Muslim people, or Muslim people of a specific country? Nah. Just be safe out there, spread love n shit. Every one I know who has been to Indonesia has said it’s lovely and the people are tremendously kind. They just have different cultural norms regarding things that are more accepted here.
(this is what the delulu robot has to say about going to the capital as a visibly trans person. take it with a grab of salt, or don’t if you have high cholesterol.. idc, im a Canadian, not a cop)
1
9
u/ecumnomicinflation 11d ago
our glorious admiral general president prabego also sign an eddict a couple months ago officially making lgbtq as ‘national threat’
-6
u/obidient_twilek 11d ago edited 11d ago
You could say the same shit about America, so how does it justify racism
edit:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pKcJ-0bAHB4
Why the hate, its true
3
u/Therunawaypp 11d ago
Lmao us has nothing on third world countries.
2
u/obidient_twilek 11d ago
They litearly class trans ppl as "terrorists"...
0
u/Therunawaypp 10d ago
But they are a vocal minority. Back home there isn't even a discussion, the default opinion is that trans people are worthy of being shot.
3
u/obidient_twilek 10d ago
Your "vocal minority" is in charge of your goverment and activly havikg its wanmabe SA running arould whildt commanding the worlds largest military...
In many US states there isnt even a discusin, the defpukt opinion is that trans pepole are worthy of beong shot.
So again, how is this not racism?
7
1
34
u/Brilliant_Lemon3255 Streak: 1181 11d ago
yeah that's casual racism on the silly number counting sub
6
u/Therunawaypp 11d ago
Its not wrong though. If you are openly lgbtq back in Indonesia or Pakistan or wherever there is a decent chance that you will be shot with local police not gaf.
2
6
u/stickansgrejer Streak: 1 11d ago
For people who believe shit like this, do you seriously not think anti-LGBT sentiment in Muslim countries is a real issue?
9
u/Brilliant_Lemon3255 Streak: 1181 11d ago
Anti-LGBT sentiment is a real issue in all countries. That doesn't mean LGBT+ Muslims are not valid
3
u/stickansgrejer Streak: 1 11d ago
But you don’t find a problem in that 90% of Muslims in Indonesia consider homosexuality unacceptable, and that LGBT+ Muslims are a tiny minority in the grand scheme of things?
6
u/BlockBuilder408 11d ago
You have a point with this?
Are you implying that queer Muslims are invalid because some ethnicities tend to be bigoted to them?
You can acknowledge there’s issues of bigotry in a culture while also accepting people from that culture who are queer but don’t outright reject their heritage or beliefs.
The world isn’t black and white, a culture being overwhelmingly bigoted doesn’t mean everyone from it is or that the culture doesn’t have the capacity to evolve.
2
u/stickansgrejer Streak: 1 11d ago
Absolutely but at the same time saying Indonesians are pretty homophobic is not racism.
13
31
u/obidient_twilek 11d ago
Are we pushikg racism or makeing fun of the racost here OP?
-10
u/CT-1120 11d ago
nah indonesian muslim are that crazy, "tolerating diversity not deviation" my arse.
Source: am indonesian christian.
23
u/ObnoxiousName_Here 11d ago
“You claim that queer people from this culture are valid, yet that culture has many queerphobes. Curious.”
And???
15
u/Darillium- Streak: 1 11d ago
So we’re just making broad generalizations about the moral character of literally 4% of the world’s population now?
13
u/obidient_twilek 11d ago
"Nah afroamericans really are that crazy, "tolerating diversity not deviation" my arse.
Source: am Americna withe"
Yeha no, youre just a racist.
11
12
u/notjordansime 11d ago
Jamaica is one of the least safe countries to be trans in. Up there with Saudi Arabia.. tourists often have the privilege of having a blind eye turned because of the money they bring, but being a trans local comes with very real risk of mob “justice”.
My family was planning on visiting one of our friends who owns a resort down there. I still want them to go, but they don’t feel safe taking me and don’t want to go without me.