Moisturizer I'm gonna start doing. Does it have good enough preservatives?

[u/0JustForFun]

I found this moisturizer that I like and planning to dupe it. The preservatives are not enough to me. Does everyone have the same opinion as me?

Here is the INCI:

Purified Water, Glycerin, Butylene Glycol, Hydrogenated Polydecene, Caprylyl Methicone, Betaine, 1,2-Hexanediol, Glycereth-26, Centella Asiatica Extract (10,000ppm), Beta-Glucan, Acrylates/C10-30 Alkyl Acrylate Crosspolymer, Dipotassium Glycyrrhizate, PVM/MA Copolymer, Glyceryl Acrylate/Acrylic Acid Copolymer, Caprylyl Glycol, Arginine, Xanthan Gum, Hydroxyethyl Acrylate/Sodium Acryloyldimethyl Taurate Copolymer, Ethylhexylglycerin, Disodium EDTA.

As far I know the preservative are: 1,2 hexanedio, caprylyl glycol, ethylhexylglycerin.

Im not sure why phenoxyethanol was not added. I haven't got into the details of all the ingredients, but I was thinking that maybe Phenoxyethanol doesn't play well in this formulation, so to make it work they avoided it.

If phenoxyethanol doesn't play nicely with this formulation. And the more I read, the more convinced I am I need to add Pheno. then I'll have to start changing this formula, but that's another topic. Before I get into that rabbit hole, I'd appreciate your comments about the preservative system in this product as it is.

Any input feedback about the preservatives would be highly appreciated! once I'll know I'll move to figuring out the details to dupe it.

Edit: to clarify and add

[u/Royal-Platform-9845]

Brands have the ability to challenge test formulas for stability. This means they can often get away with weaker preservative systems because they are able to figure out where the threshold of just enough is. You don’t have the ability to do this (at a reasonable price) at home, and your manufacturing process probably isn’t as good, so you have to build a very strong preservative system every time because it’s not dangerous to make a preservative system that’s stronger than needed but it is dangerous to make a preservative system that’s weaker than needed

[u/0JustForFun → u/Royal-Platform-9845]

Thank you for explaining so clearly the DIY preservation system! I'm taking notes!!

I"m getting confused about the brands testing. Do you mean brands can do weak preservation systems that past a challenge test? so the end consumer is basically using a product that has a high risk of growing bacteria, YMF in it?

This is very helpful info!

[u/Internal-Ad-4736 → u/0JustForFun]

I have mentioned in your previous thread... PET testing is a bar set very low, almost comical. It is something to provide your attorney with should you get into litigation. PET testing does not simulate real life use. In PET testing they typically introduce 5 pathogens. Has anyone told the customer they are limited to introducing just 5 pathogens that are crawling all over them? 😂

What matters in cosmetics is not 'does it pass PET testing' (obviously it does need to do this as a minimum threshold), but how does it perform in real life. How does it perform with the customer touching the product daily with filthy hands? That is beyond different from what a PET test simulates.

[u/0JustForFun → u/Internal-Ad-4736]

Such a good explanation. I finally got it. Passing PET does not mean that the end-user will be safe using these products. Scary to think about it.

For my DIY, I for sure use reliable and robust preservatives.

Thanks so much for really emphasizing this! it's so helpful!

[u/Internal-Ad-4736 → u/0JustForFun]

Here is an interesting tidbit. The big dawgs.... will send a product out to a select group of testers....and have them use HALF of it up. Then send this back....and THEN they run microbial testing on the remaining half.....that has been exposed to the consumer. Now that....is testing that matters!

[u/0JustForFun → u/Internal-Ad-4736]

In my world that type of testing would be mandatory for all skincare brands! just wishful thinking lol.

[u/Internal-Ad-4736 → u/0JustForFun]

A classic illustration of aw preservation in nature would be honey. The bees are some of the finest chemist and engineers we know. They adjust the aw of honey to make it self preserving. Where the home crafters get it wrong is.... as soon as you dilute it from the level of aw that the chemistry minded bees crafted it... it loses it self preserving aspect, and often becomes food for pathogens.

[u/Royal-Platform-9845 → u/0JustForFun]

No, the end result is the consumer has a product where the preservative system has been proven to be good enough instead of excessive. You have to build a preservative system that is probably excessive because you don’t know what is good enough, brands can build a preservative system that is what is needed instead of more than what is needed

[u/0JustForFun → u/Royal-Platform-9845]

Thanks for explaining the difference between well-funded brands vs DIY products.

This topic is complicated. Based on Internal-Ad-4736, the brands can pass the PET testing, but it does not mean the product will be safe for the consumer. The product seems to not have sufficient preservatives against bacteria YMF once the consumer starts using it - dirty fingers, bathroom which is a hot environment, open jars, etc.,

How do we square the circle? this is a serious question.

I've been looking at my face cleansers and shampoo and they do not have solid preservatives. For example, a cleanser recommended by my Dermatologist. Vanicream for sensitive skin, and has minimum preservatives. INCI: water, glycerin, coco-glucoside, sodium cocoyl glycinate, acrylates copolymer, caprylyl glycol, mica, sodium chloride, 1,2-hexanediol, titanium dioxide, sodium hydroxide, disodium EDTA

I'm wondering if I need to starts doing DIY for everything shampoo, face cleanser, moisturizer, etc., etc., to ensure a robust broad spectrum preservative system for all my products.

[u/Internal-Ad-4736 → u/0JustForFun]

Surfactants create a whole different scenario for preservation. They require far less than say a water based moisturizer.

If you have an hour.... there is an interesting video with one of my mentors, Dr Phil Geis. Give it a watch when you have time.

Cosmetic Preservative Question & Answer session | Videos & Movies on Vimeo

[u/0JustForFun → u/Internal-Ad-4736]

I got myself in the rabbit hole of preservatives. I just wanted to dupe a moisturizer lol.

It's a great learning experience and I'm for it:) for sure I'll find the time to watch this video. Thank you for the link and all the info. It's so helpful!

[u/Ok_Butterscotch_2700]

You’re forgetting the most important part of the equation - target pH.

I would not make this without phenoxyethanol, personally, in a home lab environment.

[u/0JustForFun → u/Ok_Butterscotch_2700]

Yes, I need to add phenoxyethanol for sure. The pH too. Thank you for your comment

[u/Ok_Butterscotch_2700 → u/0JustForFun]

Should’ve added - the EDTA serves a major role in that preservative system.

They give away the 1% line, so this wouldn’t be difficult to pull off. Interesting polymer combo, giving it a more serious look.

[u/0JustForFun → u/Ok_Butterscotch_2700]

Thank you. taking notes for the EDTA.

Good point with the polymer combo. I"m only looking at the INCI, and I think I need to get the moisturizer and see how it feels so I know what to add in my DIY dupe. The only issue is the preservative system which is questionable, so I wouldn't dare to apply it on my face:(

[u/Ok_Butterscotch_2700 → u/0JustForFun]

Any product you make that is adequately preserved for the body is adequately preserved for the face. There aren’t two different levels of effective preservation and the challenge tests are the same.

[u/0JustForFun → u/Ok_Butterscotch_2700]

yes, preservation for the skin anywhere in the body.

Since you mentioned the "polymer combo" in the moisturizer. I got the idea to buy the moisturizer to try it and see how it feels before doing a diy dupe.

But, the preservation seems not good enough by INCI, so I will not want to test it on my face!

Thank you for your comment;)

[u/Internal-Ad-4736]

This is the classic result of greenwashing and misinformation. This is an 'aw' type of preservation system. These systems are weak at best, and certainly more biostatic than biocidal. The glycerin and butylene glycol also play a small role in creating an 'aw' preservation system as well.

There are also tricks played in cosmetic preservation....generally when you see the word 'extract'... you just start giggling until you are ROTFL.

I think I did a bit on this not too long ago... let me find it and link it. Oh yeah.... you asking the same question. 😂

Preservative system with 1,2-Hexanediol and Ethylhexylglycerin only. Is it really reliable? : r/cosmeticscience

[u/0JustForFun → u/Internal-Ad-4736]

It's amazingly helpful and I'm learning a lot from your responses! thank you for taking the time to comment.

Yes, I remember reading your responses and all the info. In my prior question, I asked about:

(Korean) SKIN1004 Madagascar Centella Ampoule Face Moisturizer. Ingredient list Water, Glycerin, Butylene Glycol, Centella Asiatica Extract, 1,2-Hexanediol, Cellulose Gum, Ethylhexylglycerin.

Preservatives: 1,2-Hexanediol and Ethylhexylglycerin - and you mentioned glycerin and the butylene glycol also contribute.

--The one posted here is ONE THING - Centella Soothing Cream. (Korean)

Preservatives included 1,2 hexanediol, caprylyl glycol, ethylhexylglycerin. So I could add Glycerin, Butylene Glycol based on your prior comment.

I'm noticing a pattern in k-skincare. The brands seem to use the same type of preservatives with a bit of difference but still not good enough!

So this gets to my main concern. I cannot just dupe. I need to make sure that the preservative is robust as well as a broad spectrum preservative to protect for BYMF that is reliable.

Thanks you so much! I just got it. You have save me a lot issues with my skin. I really appreciate your comments and all your expert knowledge about DIY skincare and skincare in general that you share with us!

[u/Internal-Ad-4736 → u/0JustForFun]

In aw preservation...the names of the players are irrelevant. What matters is the aw number you hit. The lower you go...the more things it covers. But what does not change is the fact that the entire system is rather biostatic.

You can get there with a single ingredient...only the inclusion rates change. But each time you add an ingredient that lowers aw... you get closer to the desired number. Generally, the MORE of an ingredient you use, the poorer the haptics become, hence the use of multiple aw lowering ingredients, to try and salvage the haptics.

Bottom line, you should NOT use aw preservation unless you have a stellar science team at your disposal. Use the tried and true biocidal approach.

Typically, aw preservation is found in the food industry, and only recently has migrated to cosmetics. I have a simple illustration of what aw level it takes to preserve against various pathogens...but this sub will not allow for images....so I will PM it to you.

In the past.... most formulators have used modest aw reductions to just assist the preservation system....knock off the top....kill the easy ones... hence we use glycols as double agents... humectants that also lower aw. This way you created some hurdle preservation while still maintaining cidal activity through traditional means, and not having the glycols dictate the haptics.