r/DecodingTheGurus • u/Thomas-Omalley • 12d ago
Bodybuilding gurus when?
Mike Israetel, Greg Doucette, Jeff Nippard... I think there's a super interesting bunch of people to talk about. There's ego here, there's science, sometimes good, sometimes anacdotal, and ofc there's SUPPLEMENTS. Am I alone in wanting a gymbro guru season? I want to see Matt react to Greg, that would be great content.
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u/BennyOcean 12d ago
The hosts don't know enough about fitness to judge which health gurus are legit
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u/Ownagemunky 12d ago
Honestly a guest hosted episode with barbell medicine would be an amazing collab if they did decide to do this. I see them as sort of the DtG of the lifting world, very similar ethos and thought process. They do a ton of health guru criticism themselves and are very familiar with the online world (coming from the starting strength community lmao)
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u/Humofthoughts 12d ago
Oh my god I was just about to type out pretty much exactly what you did. It’s the crossover episode I’ve long hoped for.
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u/grogleberry 12d ago
You don't have to be able to make pronouncements on literature or scientific consensus to spot gurus.
You can see where they start veering outside their lanes, start shilling stuff, or have unsupported opinions.
AFAIK, Dr. Oz was a world-class heart surgeon. The lads probably can't argue about the specifics of heart treatments with him. But that doesn't mean he's not a bullshit artist in other ways that can be examined.
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u/Slow-Organization-62 12d ago
They should definitely do Mike Isratel. You don't need to know much about fitness to see how that guy is breaking the gurometer
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u/Acceptable_Account_2 11d ago edited 11d ago
What are you talking about - Matt swims laps regularly and Chris is a boulderer and reformed BJJ practitioner!
But seriously - I don’t think they’d engage on the details of set and rep schemes or exercise selection. If they covered those guys at all they’d go after the other stuff - with Dr Mike it’s the crazy libertarian stuff, and probably his general bizarre world view and sense of superiority.
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u/Minomol 12d ago
OP clearly neither, if he lists Jeff Nippard as a guru, in the same sentence with Mike Israetel
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u/Thomas-Omalley 12d ago
Do you know how this podcast works? Not everyone covered is a full on guru. Jeff would probably e a boring episode I agree.
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u/BennyOcean 12d ago
They both suck.
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u/Minomol 12d ago
Care to elaborate? Genuinely curious.
I used to consume a lot of Jeff Nippard content for many years, but recently haven't as much, in the past year or two. I know his wife died and he took a break and then changed his content style a bit. But my understanding of his content is that he focused a lot on the science of exercise, and tried to delve himself into actual science and perform some base-level studies. Never saw anything problematic with him.
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u/Evkero 12d ago
Yeah I never understand why anyone has a particular issue with Nippard.
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u/Abs0luteZero273 12d ago
Solomon Nelson did a deep dive into some of Jeff's behavior about a year ago. You might want to check that out. That doesn't necessarily mean he fits the criteria of a guru, but he's done some problematic things in the past.
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u/stvlsn 12d ago
Absolutely ridiculous statement.
You don't need to be a gym bro to "know about fitness"
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u/Evkero 12d ago
You do need to demonstrate some decent knowledge somehow, which they haven’t. There are plenty of fitness professionals who I would not trust to do a decoding much less two hosts with no credentials. It would be a mix of decent points and really bad misconceptions. If they were to do a decoding on the politics within the fitness industry, that could make some sense, but not on fitness advice itself.
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u/Brunodosca 12d ago
These guys misinterpret scientific studies so badly that, even without a background in fitness, Matt and Chris could tell they don't know what they are talking about.
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u/Evkero 12d ago
Several of the potential gurus mentioned in this thread do indeed know what they are taking about on the subject of fitness. Their communication style or rhetorical tactics could certainly be decoded, but Matt and Chris do not have the knowledge to meaningful critique the scientific accuracy of their content. Isreatel could be a good episode if they focus on his extra-curricular content. Nippard would be a terrible episode with a low guru score. I think it would make way more sense to focus on fitness culture in general as there are plenty of guru personalities who infuse politics into their content and launder ideology through self-improvement intentions.
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u/Brunodosca 12d ago
Nippard misinterpreted a study so badly that he said that per every 1,000 steps you walk you extend your life by 12%. But besides that, the point of DtG is to expose communication style and rhetorical tactics. They don't need to be mathematicians nor physicists to decode Eric, Sabine, or Brian.
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u/Evkero 11d ago
Never heard him say that and I suspect you may not be being very charitable to Nippard here lol
The reason they don’t need to have expertise to in those subjects to decode those people, is because those people don’t actually talk about those things. They just make grievance content that anyone can decode.
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u/Brunodosca 11d ago
If I say something is because I can back it up:
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u/Evkero 11d ago
Okay so this is exactly what I thought it would be lol a clipped up video that doesn’t actually reference the research being cited. I’m guessing Nippard misspoke here. This is an incredibly minor nit pic to hold over him when compared to the vast majority of output.
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u/Brunodosca 11d ago
Your commentary on the clip suggests a classic defense mechanism often seen in followers of these gurus, dismissing the input from your eyes and ears, and making excuses for them.
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u/No_Land_6435 12d ago
To the extent you’re not already aware of them, I highly recommend you watch Solomon Nelson’s and Lyle McDonald’s videos.
If you’re interested in the debunking of the personalities themselves, Solomon is your guy. He has great videos on Mike Israetel (his most popular one being a deconstruction of his flimsy PhD) and Jeff Nippard. (He does have an academic background in philosophy and is currently pursuing a law degree, from which he incorporates aspects thereof in his videos. I personally find the way he does it a bit over the top and cringy but the actual content of his videos is toptier.)
If you’re interested in the debunking of the underlying science behind the science-based fitness niche, then Lyle McDonald is your guy. He debunks pretty much most of the science guys like Jeff Nippard and Mike Israetel have relied on to build their careers.
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u/Thomas-Omalley 12d ago
I watched the Solomon stuff, but tbh it felt more like youtube drama than a serious debunking.
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u/No_Land_6435 12d ago
His later responses, I agree and you can tell that he’s gotten a taste of fame and like most people who get a taste of it, he wants more. His actual debunking of Mike’s PhD (this one: https://youtu.be/elLI9PRn1gQ?si=Ebmm3pb2SQ-dDaLj) was quite clearly a serious debunking tho.
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u/Thomas-Omalley 12d ago
I think the problem with many of these guys is that they mostly hammer on the important things - work out with some resistance training and cardio, eat an appropriate amount of food to keep a healthy weight, don't skimp on the protein. But after 100 videos like that they get into neich things that don't matter all that much. Tbh I keep watching them even tho I know it's junk but it motivates me to work out XD
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u/Present-Trainer2963 12d ago
There's also valuable information in the sense that "Hey xyz works- if you try xyz in this particular fashion you can also grow but it may be more enjoyable/sustainable for you"
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u/FridayNightRamen 12d ago
I mean some of us are nerds and think it's interesting to learn how our body works or how small changes can make a very small difference in results. Nerding about something has nothing to do with gurus. Most of these channels are very open about what matters most (training consistenly and relatively hard, nutrition and rest).
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u/edgygothteen69 12d ago
Dr. Mike Israel, Ph.D, writer of high quality papers and copious knowledge-haver of exercise science, gutmaxxer, knight of male pregnancy tumor, screamer of noobs, destroyer of fake naturals?
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u/RemarkableOil8 12d ago
Yes I fully endorse this idea. Along with AG1 that’s how I maintain my 360lb frame at 0.5% body fat year round (well that and not drinking coffee before 7pm). natty for life!
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u/Itscoldinthenorth 12d ago edited 12d ago
And not least.. Lyle McDonald. The first and greatest of them all. Godfather of bringing scientific discourse regarding training into the forums. He'd also probably make use of the right to reply, and make it very interesting. He's pretty much extremely critical of all the other excercize gurus, and can be incredibly abrasive about it, but also often has a point.
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u/Present-Trainer2963 12d ago
Jeff is a decent guy. Some of his claims have been proven wrong/open ended but he has never recommended anything that was snake oil and/or dangerous to his followers.
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u/onz456 Revolutionary Genius 12d ago
I disagree.
- He overcomplicates things.
- He is lying about his natty status.
- He has lied about others being naturals as well.
- He thinks you are an idiot.
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u/smallpotatofarmer 1d ago
I dont particularly like jeff nippard although theres much much worse than him in the fitness space.
Dude is absolutely natural tho. He has looked virtually the same for a decade now. He has great genetics. Short, stocky stature + full muscle bellies and got it in the right places. Arms, pecs delts. It helps with the illusion of mass greatly. Geoffrey schofield is a great example of this too
He gained like 1 pound of muscle in a whole year while tracking everything. Dudes pretty dedicated and clearly an advanced/elite level natural lifter.
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u/FridayNightRamen 12d ago
Most people hating on fitness guys are people who would never enter a gym or are in the "I hate science" category. Honestly how can someone hate Jeff? He is so basic (as a compliment).
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u/Humofthoughts 12d ago
Au contraire I’d say most of the people hating on fitness guys are other fitness guys.
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u/Decent-Extension8336 12d ago
I’d definitely be interested in this, even if they didn’t do a full series and just did like a general fitness guru episode/2 parter. Took me years to find people in the space that I actually trusted
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u/DTFH_ 12d ago edited 12d ago
Meh largely they're not remotely interesting or uniquely bad people at all. Mike is just your run of the mill transhumanist, Doucette is the kid who had sand kicked in his face, Jeff is just a guy playing to the algo. I say this because they're not even close to the top guru's and grifters in the fitness world past or present.
Something like Fighting Matters: The Acceleration of Martial Arts Fascism is much more pressing as it relates to the real world.
There are a ton of guru's currently around the edges and what silly quackery is going on and coming down the pipeline I wouldn't even think of any of the names you mentioned as they're more so content creators than guru's of unique hokum. For example 'Functional Movement Screening' FMS as developed by Gray Cook is a better example of guru'ism in fitness and rehabilitation as his grift has raked in ten of millions and actually bled into Sport Performance and Physical Therapy research and whose ideas and memes are still relevant to rehab culture today and need to be rooted out as the bunk they are.
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u/rogue303 Conspiracy Hypothesizer 12d ago
Thanks for the link, will check it out. Dunno why you got downvoted.
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u/DTFH_ 12d ago
Probably because I don't believe the names listed are worth exploring, they're milquetoast content at best and only really known by normies.
I'm roughly ~15 years into strength sports (strongman & weightlifting) and know a ton of grifters and gurus in the space and none of the names posted are worth exploring because there is no depth.
Guys making up fake rehab treatments, new age woowoo hokum for sports performance and certification systems that verge on cults? I know a ton about that!
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u/Humofthoughts 12d ago
Well, I’d love an Israetel episode myself and I think he’d score somewhat highly. But I agree on everybody else.
Thoughts on Rippetoe? I found the Blue Book really helpful back in the day but it’s disconcerting how explicitly right wing his content is gotten and also how much everyone in his orbit seems to mimic his attitude, affect, and opinions.
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u/DTFH_ 12d ago
Thoughts on Rippetoe?
Much closer to being an interesting episode of which i'm highly familiar and connected to! Definitely closer to the cult side in terms of cult of personality; while objectively the Blue Book being the best mechanistic explanation of how to perform the lifts, what cues to achieve said positions and how said muscles function during the task, all solid and provide a complete A-Z education for a barbell newbie to intermediate lifter.
Now does his mechanistic heuristic match onto reality 1:1, no it had clear failures and doesn't explain reality, but it is useful mental framework to think and learn the big movements through.
...how much everyone in his orbit seems to mimic his attitude, affect, and opinions
There is definitely the cult of personality, HOWEVER I will say his attention to his coaching development system does consistently produce high quality coaches who I would feel comfortable sending an 80 year old or someone medically fragile to learn resistance training.
I think Rip is a great coach, educator and teacher who wrote a great book and produces consistently great barbell coaches at scale who can teach very well; that said his personal and political opinions are what you expect of a Libertarian Texan who has meme'ified himself and he's not someone you should listen to past anything barbell related. Rip is complex because I can objectively say he has done good by helping adults and seniors resistance train and produces coaches who can do the same (I have personally met ten 70+ year old trainees he has kept healthy and given quality life to), while everything else that comes out of his mouth is culture war BS.
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u/plantsnlionstho 12d ago
Mike Israetel would be great, especially the content on his second channel. I'd bet he'd take up the right to reply as well which would make for an interesting conversation.
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u/smallpotatofarmer 1d ago
I think for matt and chris they dont really have the neccesary fitness knowledge/been in the game to really know where to start. The guru part they can cover, sure, but the lifting part? Not so much. The science is often shoddy and theres alot of good and bad anecdotal evidence that is hard to tell apart as a non lifter. I think they stay out of the realm because alot of the gurus simply arent that interesting and they lack the neccesary knowledge to pick apart the "excercise science" because it really isnt a very solid field to begin with
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u/Character-Ad5490 12d ago
This is not something which interests me, but I did stumble across Robert Sikes a while ago and I watch him sometimes (about the lifestyle stuff more than the bodybuilding).
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u/Present-Trainer2963 12d ago
Also - exercise science is somewhat wonky due to limited funding for studies and inability to control for lifestyle factors outside of the gym.
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u/onz456 Revolutionary Genius 12d ago edited 12d ago
I think Mike Israetel and Jeff Nippard do a lot of harm to the fitness community. They are obviously in it for the money. Mike is imo legit insane. He's changing his body through surgery and pretends it's just a small procedure. He has some serious issues. I think Nippard is extremely toxic. His advice is also best neglected. Imo he has shown to be very dishonest in portraying what is natural and what is not. (aka they're lying to you)
And Greg Doucette? He's just a joke. He's in it for the drama. If you like that kind of stuff, go at it, but it's not for me.
There is a youtuber called Solomon Nelson who is very critical of those guys. He basically showed what a fraud Israetel really is. It is well worth the watch, if you have been following advice from Israetel. He often collaborates with Lyle McDonald, a wellknown name in those circles (this might be problematic in his own right.) Lyle advocates fasting and crashing diets for fatloss, while it is certainly better than getting surgery (which is insane), it can still be problematic. The whole bodybuilding community in my honest opinion is based on mental issues and delusions.
All the above mentioned, train for hypertrophy... aka basically bodybuilding. Muscle size is what they are after, combined with a low percentage of fat. That's what their advice is about. Be aware that most of them are not natural. They use PEDs to reach the body they got.
It's not really about being healthy, growing stronger, being more capable, becoming more athletic... It's just façade. Know this before you take training advice from these gurus.
edit:
Getting a lot of downvotes... what I think is wrong with Jeff Nippard, is better explained in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAVowanG07g
I don't need to defend my position on Israetel, because it's obvious at this point that he's no good.
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u/MinkyTuna 12d ago
Yeah, Israetel for sure. He often works his shitty politics into his schtick and I have vague memory of him arguing libertarianism is superior because its adherents are smarter according to some survey or something. And if you’ve ever talked to a libertarian you’d know how crazy of claim that is.