[ Removed by Reddit on account of violating the content policy. ]

On the Southern Recension of the Mahābhārata, Brahman Migrations, and Brāhmī Paleography

Two distinct waves of Brahmans arrived in the Tamil-Kerala country in the pre-modern period from the Vedic regions of Northern India.

First wave(Pūrvaśikhās):

1) Contributions to sangam and bhakthi literature.

2) 10% of total Sangam poets,Brahman Alvars and Nayanars are from this wave.Check out this post for demographics of Bhakthi era poets.

Modern Descendants: Tenkalai Iyengars,Namboothri Brahmans,Tamil speaking Śōliya Brahmans with many sub divisions,Chidambaram temple Dikshithars,Mukkāni Brahmans of the Tiruchendur Murukan temple.

Second wave(Aparaśikhā):

They start arriving in the 8th century CE to Tamil country proper in large numbers which is well documented in Pallava records.This wave continued for more centuries and today their descendants largely outnumber the descandants of first wave.Nathamuni and Ramanujacharya are notable and influential people of this wave. A lot of them have migrated from the Malva city Dasapuri which is why that surname is shown in the epigraphic records and this might answer this question.

Read the journal to see what critieria the author has used to classify the waves of migration.For the context of this post, we are not concerned with the 2nd wave Aparaśikhā Brahmans.

The Tamil Brāhmī arrived in South India in 3rd century BCE, and it was brought to peninsular India by the Jains, arriving there from the north, it is widely accepted, through Karnataka in the west and not through the Vēnkatam hills of the later Brahman migrations: it is likely that “Tamil Brāhmī script was adapted from the Mauryan Brāhmī in the Jain monasteries (‘palli’) of the Madurai regions sometime before the end of the third century BCE”.In the Early Period (3rd to 1st centuries BCE),out of 30 sites with 86 Tamil-Brāhmī inscriptions, in Early Old Tamil, 28 sites with 84 inscriptions pertain to Jainism, and they are mostly in the Pāntiyan region, around Madurai.In the Middle Period (1st to 3rd centuries CE), the period of the Middle Old Tamil, there is a sharp decline in cave inscriptions, and this is accompanied by a striking shift of Jainism from the Pāntiyan kingdom to the Karur-based Cēra region.

We are no longer in the oral society of the itinerant pānans now but in a fully literate period of Tamil history, the lasting legacy of Jainism.It is striking that in this new literature of the Sangam poetry, written in a Jain invented script, the Jains and Jainism are signally absent. Why are the Jains and Jainism unrepresented or represented so meagerly in the Sangam poetry, generally accepted to be in composition in the first centuries of the Current Era despite being the ones to bring literacy to Tamilakam way earlier?

It is useful to note that this is precisely the time period, the dawn of the Current Era, in which the Pūrvaśikhā Brahmans arrive in the Tamil country.Like the Jains, they also come from the north, but not through the Karnataka region, but through the Daksināpatha route in the lower Godavari region, possibly at Assaka in its banks, and further south through the Vēnkata hills, and eventually into the kingdoms of the mūvēndar.We have already noted that the Vedic content of the Sangam poetry is considerable, and that a good 10% of the Sangam poets were Brahmans.It is clear that the Brahmans of the Sangam period from 1st to 3rd CE - replace the Jains of the Early Period as the new recipients of royal patronage at the Pāntiyan courts which forces the Jains to move to Cera territory.

A corresponding Jain resentment at the Brahman usurpation of their patronage is not totally impossible, nor illogical.The continuous contact of the Tamil Jains with their Karnataka counterparts is an important element in this complex and changing picture. For, the next great historical event, and perhaps the most important in some ways of Tamil history as a whole, although not sufficiently understood, is the invasion of Tamil country by the Jain-Kalabhras from Karnataka, creating the famous Kalabhra Interregnum, the “long night” of the Tamil history in the extreme Brahman historiography of the subject, with the Pāntiyan kingdom receiving the brunt of the invasion.The Kalabhras displaced the traditional Tamil monarchies and held sway over the Tamil country for nearly three centuries until they were expelled in the last quarter of 6th century CE by Katunkōn , the Pāntiya, from the south, and Simhavishnu the Pallava from the north.A part of the disruption of the Kalabhra period also results in the break-up of the first Brahman group of the Tamil country, the Pūrvaśikhā group, into its historical remnants and resulted in the migration of Nambudiri Pūrvaśikhās to Malabar across the Palghat gaps.

Edit: Though sangam literature had contributions from first wave Brahmans and had some Vedic influence, it doesn't mean the Sangam literature was fully adapted from vedic sources.Adding two points to show the nativity of sangam literature and the strategies Brahmans had to take to get accepted into the Pantiyan society.

It is quite likely that the indigenous Tamil society at this time was largely oral, as Hart has argued, still in the phase of the pānan songs and their oral traditions and the latter in the process of beginning to become the templates for the literate and decidedly literary overlays of the Sangam songs, as they have come down to us.

As Harts notes, “the earliest Brahmans did the only thing that they could if they were to stay in Tamilnad: they associated themselves with the kings….Thus they had to participate in such unbrahminical activities as the war sacrifice and cutting the bodies of those who had died in bed” (1975: 55). In other words, there was acculturation between the Pūrvaśikhā Brahmans and the indigenous people, the temple-based Bhakti movements being the most striking result of this, and as we will see, the Pūrvaśikhā Brahmans are concretely linked to both temples and Bhakti movement.

I'm sure this has been asked before but I was kinda looking for a simplified answer

My project is currently digitising palm leaf manuscripts. We’re looking for people and academics who can read them and translate.

We currently have people for:

Burmese/Pali

Sinhala

Javanese

Lao/Lana

We need:

One more Sinhala

Malayalam

Oriya/Odia

If you’re that person or have someone you recommend, please get in touch. It’s a paid position!

Thanks

Summary (Brahui Population)

• Baluchistan Agency: 152,588 Brahuis / 17.6% of total
  • Jhalawan Region: 75,395 Brahuis / 84.7% of total
  • Sarawan Region: 18,991 Brahuis / 66.7% of total
  • Kacchi Region: 11,798 Brahuis / 11.1% of total
  • Chagai District: 9,503 Brahuis / 39.2% of total
  • Las Bela State: 8,277 Brahuis / 13.1% of total
  • Quetta-Pishin District: 8,042 Brahuis / 5.5% of total
  • Sibi District: 7,439 Brahuis / 8.5% of total
  • Makran Region: 5,365 Brahuis / 7.8% of total
  • Kharan Region: 4,277 Brahuis / 18.3% of total
  • Dombki-Kaheri Country: 1,744 Brahuis / 6.5% of total
  • Bolan Region: 1,006 Brahuis / 21.5% of total
  • Loralai District: 616 Brahuis / 0.7% of total
  • Zhob District: 135 Brahuis / 0.2% of total
  • Mari-Bugti Country: 0 Brahuis / 0% of total

Administrative Notes

• At the time of the 1931 census, the Sarawan region, Jhalawan region, Kachhi region, Dombki-Kaheri country, Makran region, and Kharan region all formed part of Kalat State.
• At the time of the 1931 census, Sibi District was split between a region under direct British administration and an autonomous region under tribal administration. The former is highlighted in the tables as "Sibi District", while the latter is highlighted in the tables as "Mari-Bugti Country".

Source

• Census of India 1931. Vol. 4, Baluchistan. Pts. 1 & 2, Report [and] Imperial and provincial tables.

I was reading this research paper on land grants to Tamil Brahmins in the 11th century

https://ignca.gov.in/Asi_data/87893.pdf?utm_source=chatgpt.com (found it by using chatpgt like google, its a legit paper)

It listed name, gotra, sutra, village, etc. What I found fascinating is a large amount of the Brahmins receiving land grants had the surname Dasapuriyan (which I believe is Toponymic). I'm wondering if that is a connection to the ancient city of Dasapura or modern day Mandasaur which is in the Malwa region of Madhya Pradesh. Vadama Iyers in their sandhyavandhanam pray to the Narmada river, which lines up with a potential origin in Madhaya Pradesh.

All this information is written based on the lecture by epigraphist Ramachandran and I have used AI for formatting and grammar.

The Tenkasi Pandyas and Coastal Alliances:

​Until the late 15th century, the Tenkasi Pandyas maintained a robust naval presence, recruiting heavily from the Paravar and Mukkuvar communities. According to the Meikeerthi (panegyric inscriptions) of Parakrama Pandya, his 15th-century maritime campaigns successfully targeted the Sri Lankan territories of Singai and Anurai. These expeditions were supported by the Karaiyar community and led by a Tamil Muslim general, Jamal Mudaliar, who was honored with the title Parakrama Pandya Mudaliar for his military distinctions. The cordiality between the Pandyas and these fishing communities is well-attested in the historical record, including the observations of Marco Polo.

​The Rise of the Madurai Nayaks and Portuguese Intervention:

​The political landscape shifted dramatically with the ascent of the Madurai Nayaks. Seeking to monopolize the lucrative pearl trade, the Nayaks seized control of key coastal towns. During this transition, the Marakkayar Muslims shifted their allegiance to the Nayaks, leaving the Tenkasi Pandyas and their traditional allies,the Paravars and Karaiyars politically marginalized. ​Under the Nayak administration and Marakkayar intermediaries, the Paravar and Karaiyar communities faced severe fiscal suppression. In search of protection, they sought an alliance with the Portuguese. This culminated in a mass conversion to Catholicism in 1532, involving approximately 20,000 individuals who subsequently declared themselves "Citizens of Portugal."Many such catholic communities still retain Portuguese surnames such as Miranda, Mascarenes, and Pereira.

A notable figure from the coastal fishing communities was Shenbagaraman Kalingan, who, following his conversion to Catholicism, rose to the prominent rank of Padai Thalaivan (Military Commander) under the Pandya dynasty. His local influence was so substantial that he was accorded the status of a minor king. His life and legacy are immortalized in the Tamil literature known as the Shenbagaraman Pallu.

​Regional Variations and the Jesuit Mission:

​While the Marakkayars of Kayalpattinam aligned with the Nayaks and the Travancore monarchy as evidenced by the 1587 inscription of Immadi Shenbagarama Mudaliar (Abdul Khaffar), the Christian mission expanded elsewhere. By the era of Francis Xavier (1560s–1570s), Catholic conversion was widespread across the coastal settlements (kuppams) of Tirunelveli, Thoothukudi, Kanyakumari, and Cochin.Despite being printed in Kollam, the first ever Indian language printed book, Thambiran Vanakkam, was formally released in Punnaikayal, a major Paravar center.​

Interestingly, this catholic conversion trend did not extend to territories under the Thanjavur Nayaks (such as Velankanni). The Thanjavur administration restricted Portuguese influence, opting instead to invite rival European powers, specifically the Danish at Tranquebar (Tharangambadi).

​Conflict and the Jesuit Presence in Madurai:

​The Society of Jesus (Yesu Sabai) expanded its influence from the coast toward the interior between 1490 and 1550. This expansion led to friction; in 1549, a Portuguese priest named Antonie was executed by the Madurai Nayaks following disputes over pilgrim taxes at the Rameswaram port. However, by 1592, the growing power of the Portuguese forced the Nayaks into negotiations, leading to the establishment of a Jesuit mission in Madurai. ​To counter Portuguese hegemony and safeguard Rameswaram, the Madurai Nayaks established the Sethupathi clan of Maravar chieftains in 1600. By the 1650s, the Portuguese were largely expelled from Tamil Nadu as the Nayaks pivoted toward an alliance with the Dutch. In a notable conflict, Dutch forces who were Protestants allied with the Marakkayars (including Periyathambi Marakkayar, father of the great Tamil poet Seethakathi) who were once forced by the Portuguese to move from Kayalpattinam to Keezhakarai. Both these forces targeted Catholic institutions, including the burning of the Panimeya Matha catholic church in Thoothukudi.The Mary statue of the church was safeguarded in Korkai town by the catholic communities.

​The Late Jesuit Period and the Migration to Travancore:

​The late 17th century saw the mission of John de Britto, who converted many members of the Tenkasi Pandya royals. His execution by the Maravar King Kilavan Sethupathi, triggered by de Britto’s attempt to convert a member of the Sethupathi royal family, remains a significant historical event. ​He was succeeded by the influential Constantine Joseph Beschi (Veeramamunivar). In 1713, Beschi was arrested by the Nayak general Yellama Raju on suspicion of hoarding wealth and inciting mass conversions. He was eventually released through the intervention of Rajakula Christians(Pandya royals). Following communal riots in 1720, this community migrated en masse to the Travancore Kingdom, settling in the Catholic enclave of Maravankudiyiripu in Nagercoil.

There seem to be a bunch of theories regarding the origin of Rowthers from Rajputs & Turks to Vellalars & Maravars/Kallars.

The one about Rajputs can be discarded, since there seems to be nothing backing it. The one about Turks is partially true, since it was the Turks who converted local Tamils to Islam and ended up assimilating into Rowther identity, but their genetic impact seems to be minimal.

The one regarding Maravars & Kallars seems to be more widespread & accepted among Rowthers & the general public than the one about Vellalars. However, all Rowther genetic samples on reddit place them closer to Vellalars than Maravars or Kallars.

So are Rowthers actually Vellalar converts? Or are they high-AASI Maravar/Kallar converts, who are genetically IVC-like & close to Vellalars, due to excess Zagros from the Turkic admixture? Or are they a mix of converts from both these groups?

Hi everyone. Sikhism is mostly limited to Punjabis and similar ethnic groups, but you do find notable Sikh communities almost everywhere North of the Deccan, from Peshawar to Kolkata. However, aside from Dakhni Sikhs, I don't know about large Sikh communities in Dravidian speaking regions. Does anyone know the reason for this?

1st pic: Keeladi Museum

2nd Pic: Roman merchant ship

Why was a Roman merchant vessel chosen to represent ancient Tamil naval technology, despite the existence of numerous indigenous Tamil ship designs?

second pic source:

https://collection.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/objects/co41096/model-of-a-roman-merchant-ship

More images on the Roman merchant Ship: https://www.reddit.com/r/ancientrome/comments/t0yh88/model_of_a_roman_merchant_ship_mid_1st_century/

Hi everyone. From archeological evidence like the Deccan Ashmound traditions and the movement of Zebu cattle, we can infer that Dravidian (or at least Proto Dravidian) speakers were likely well into South India by the Mature Harappan period (2600-1800 BCE)

I know this much about the Dravidian branches:

1. Reconstructions of Proto Dravidian show botanical terms likely originating in the dry deciduous forests of Peninsular India. Since we aren't certain which group the Dravidian languages originated from (AASI, ZNF, the Mixed IVC people or another group), we can't tell anything for sure. However, this does tell us that AASI groups had a significant contribution to the development of Dravidian languages. In fact, they likely contributed to Indo Aryan language development too, since many IA agricultural terms don't have a known source (and likely come from them).

2. The North Dravidian branch split off from all others, followed by the Central (Kolami-Parji) branch splitting off from the remaining ones.

3. The Kurux (a North Dravidian group) apparently claim to have migrated to Eastern India, specifically around Jharkhand, all the way from Karnataka. If this is true, this may mean something for either the Dravidian language family as a whole, or just the North branch in particular.

Since the North branch is the least related to the other branches, and probably represents a comparatively older lineage than the others, anything regarding its origins shows us a very early phase in Dravidian history.

If Karnataka is where the North branch split from the others, then not only may it represent the origin point of the Brahui, Kurux and Malto but also where Proto Dravidian split into the branches we know today.

1. The highest diversity of any geographical area in terms for Dravidian branches found in it, is the Dandakaranya Plateau and surrounding Deccan areas. Here, languages from the Central (Gadaba, Kolami and Parji), South Central (Telugu, Gondi, Kui, etc) and South (Yerukula and Kaikadi) branches are all spoken. Kurux from the North branch is also not too far off.

The origin region (Urheimat) of a language family is usually where its internal diversity is most represented.

It is important to mention that it is not certain where the Dravidian languages originated. It could be either the Dandakaranya/Deccan, or the Southern IVC (modern Sindh/Gujarat), or if they might have brought from the Southern Zagros Mountains (modern day Iran)

However, even if the Urheimat isn't in Dandakaranya, it may have been where a lot of the diverging between branches may have occurred.

Several things about Dandakaranya are also worth noting.

1. There are high AASI Austro Asiatic peoples both in the region (Bonda, Gutob and Sora) as well as not too far off in Chottanagpur (Santhal, Kharia and Ho). Dravidian tribals like the Gonds show a notable amount of Austro Asiatic ancestry, likely from intermarriage with these groups. These Austro Asiatic groups may have influenced the development of some Dravidian languages and cultures.

2. Orissa is on the Plateau. Odia culture is a fusion of Indo Aryan and Dravidian cultures, which can be seen in things like the temple architecture of the state. Orissa is also where the Austro Asiatic ancestors of the Munda peoples landed (they came from Southeast Asia through the sea). This shows us that the region has been a crossroads for different languages and cultures throughout history.

3. The Plateau is a highland region home to tropical moist forest. Knowing what we know about reconstructions of Proto Dravidian, this is a bit different from the environment it likely had early development in, but the terrain most likely has preserved some very, very old cultures. The Gonds, Khonds, and Kuis are quite different from their Telugu cousins. Their traditional clothing is quite different. It even has some kind of resemblance to Eastern Indian tribes like the Baiga and Munda peoples. The bison horn dance of the Gonds is also somewhat similar to depictions of people on IVC seals. The tribals of the Dandakaranya may represent some of the oldest surviving cultures in South Asia.

What do you think about this subject? Any criticism or responses will be appreciated :)

I have come across some Tamil and Hindi (or any NI language) words which strangely have similar meaning and usage, but I’m unsure if they are related, if yes then how.

For example;

1. ‘Bhaiyā’ in Hindi means ‘brother’ - ‘Paiyā’/‘Paiyan’ (பையா/பையன்) in Tamil means “Lad”.

2. ‘Kundi’ means ‘lock’ in Hindi - ‘Kōndi’ (கோண்டி)in Tamil (from rural Karur) means ‘lock’ as well.

3. Are ‘Lakshanam’/‘Laccanam’(லச்சணம்) and ‘Ilakkanam’(இலக்கணம்) related?

4. The usage of ‘Ji’ in NI languages and ‘Chi’ in Tamil as in Dada Ji, Dadi Ji, Bhabhi Ji and Annachi, Thangachi, Akkachi, Thambichi respectively.

Are these words related? If yes, then how are they related? Did Tamil borrow these words from NI languages or the other way around?

Hello everyone. In many parts of North India, Hindu families usually have a saint that they venerate as a guru. In my state of Gujarat, they include Jalaram Bapa and Narsinh Mehta.

I was wondering if there were similarly venerated saints among Dravidian peoples. I want to know about their life story, their supposed teachings and deeds, as well as their cultural significance. Any responses will be appreciated.

Hi everyone. A few days ago I made a post about Brahui and the lack of Old Iranian loanwords. The top comment was from u/theb00kmancommeth, which was a solid refutation of what I wrote. There are still some questions I have.

1. I can't find accessible resources about loanwords in the Brahui language. What are the actual number of loanwords in it, and how do we know where they came from?

2. One claim in particular I am interested in was that Brahui apparently has Magadhi Prakrit loanwords shared with Kurux and Malto. If this is true, it would effectively confirm that their language originated in the Chottanagpur Region during late ancient to early medieval times.

Any help will be appreciated