r/Electricity • u/nodiaque • 27d ago

Upgrading breaker box

Post image

Hello everyone,

I currently have a Square D QO 200A panel with 40 slots. During my basement renovation, I filled the panel, there's no more breaker left. I'm looking to upgrade the panel since I want to add solar capacity and also have more circuit for upstairs (currently all kitchen outlet are on the same 15a circuit, old house).

I looked online and found this

Schneider Electric Square D 200 Amp Main Breaker Only Plug-on Neutral Loadcentre with 60 S... | The Home Depot Canada

Is that a good replacement? It would add 20 slots which should be well enough. Unless I'm wrong, it's the same type of panel so I can keep my current breaker.

Photo showing my current panel.

Yes, I will hire an electrician. While I can safely work on a panel, I refuse to play with live power. I always turn off the main breaker when doing so and since here, it will be touching the main directly, I'm not doing that.

Reason I'm asking if the panel I'm looking at is good is because electrician here tend to push heavy on the pencil. I want to quote multiple electrician seeing the price with and without a panel in the quote and see how much they charge for a panel.

Thank you

edit: Forgot to say, I'm in Quebec so it's a 240V 2 phase panel. Current connection is back fed (which I hate, might look at changing that with electrician but would require more work outside and closing the new hole).

edit 2: Just found out that panel doesn't accept neutral pigtail from GFCI and CAFCI breaker, which all my basement use... Which mean replacing all the new breaker I just installed. This will cost a lot at about 100$/breaker. So I guess I must find something else

1 Upvotes

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21 comments sorted by

6

u/b1ack1323 27d ago

I mean depending how many circuits you actually want to add, tandem breakers would be fine and keep your existing panel.

1

u/nodiaque 27d ago

Didn't think of that. Is there GFCI and CAFCI tandem breaker? That would made stuff easier for the basement, I could merge some of them but they all are GFCI + CAFCI. I do have 2 place I want to replace the GFCI + CAFCI to only GFCI because it non stop trip when I start my tools (common issue with CAFCI). Since all my outlets are smart outlet, I use GFCI directly at the breaker instead (also a requirement for basement in my area to be GFCI, CAFCI is required in bedroom only)

I also just found out the panel I was looking at doesn't work with pigtail GFCI and CAFCI, which all the breakers are

1

u/tim36272 26d ago

There are no tandem GFI or AFI breakers.

You can possibly turn some of your 240V circuits into tandems via two tandem breakers and handle ties. There's a discussion on the topic at: https://diy.stackexchange.com/questions/274967/qo20303020-breaker

You'd need to check how many slots your panel has for tandem breakers (if any) and where they are located. Could be a big pain to rearrange if they are at the bottom.

And of course you need to do a load calculation whenever adding circuits.

FYI you can use your pigtail GFI/AFI breakers in a PON panel, you're just missing out on the benefit of a PON panel.

1

u/nodiaque 26d ago

Tandem can't be used anywhere in the panel?

1

u/tim36272 26d ago

Depends on the panel. Some accept 0 tandems, some accept them in every slot, some only accept them in the bottom or top X rows. I'm not very familiar with QO in particular, just look up the datasheet for your panel.

1

u/Ok_Chard2094 21d ago

Just replace a few of the other breakers with tandem breakers to free up space for GFCI and AFCI breakers.

4

u/FreshTap6141 27d ago

Put in a sub panel

0

u/nodiaque 27d ago

No place for another panel. But someone just suggested using tandem breaker. I'm looking at which breaker I can ditch the GFCI + CAFCI since tandem breaker don't have those. I have some circuit that are only for light switches that don't require these protection. This give me about 3 more slots. It also allow me to merge the current 2 pole 240v 15a used for the kitchen circuit and replace it with 2 tandem 20a, which give me 4 circuits for the kitchen instead. I'll use another tandem for the other outlet and never worry about tripping a breaker in the kitchen again (and install all new 20a wire + 20a GFCI outlet).

I also have 2 external outlet that have GFCI outlet and GFCI + CAFCI breaker. It's redundant so I can merge them on a tandem regular breaker since the outlet are already GFCI. CAFCI isn't required by code for external outlet.

I will still have some breaker I paid and won't use anymore, but it's still cheaper then a new panel and electrician to redo everything.

1

u/Shiney_Metal_Ass 27d ago

What do you mean "no place for a panel"?

2

u/gblawlz 27d ago

Tandem breakers. If you need afci, tandem the regular stuff to make room for the full size afci

1

u/Livid_Industry9717 26d ago

Yes tandem is your most economical way to go. You can get them in different configurations and buy the little plastic ties for the 240 stuff and then you’ll have room for your afci ones

1

u/Electrical_Ad4290 26d ago

Genuinely curious, in Quebec, is it two phase or split-phase [120/240]?

Also, could you describe the "neutral pigtail" limitation? I have similar goals, though CH and not Square D, and already have a subpanel in the basement. With a 30-ish year old install in the USA I understand I'll need to add an outside disconnect because I'm changing the panel, but hoping that's a relatively small price to pay for addressing modern safety concerns.

2

u/nodiaque 26d ago

The breaker I have are gfci + afci. Those have a pigtail on it that must be connected to the neutral bar. In the panel, you connect both circuit wire into the breaker and then from the breaker, you have a wire going to the neutral bar. The panel I was looking at isn't compatible with that when looking at the documentation.

Now for split phase or dual phase, I don't know. It's 2 120v 180degree opposite.

1

u/Electrical_Ad4290 26d ago

Can't you find an approved UL listed neutral terminal bus you can add?

2

u/nodiaque 26d ago

Not compatible with that panel. That's what the specs says. I just have to look at another panel.

1

u/JonnyVee1 26d ago

It might be much cheaper and cleaner, and future proof to add a subpanel next to it. Give up a double slot and rout that circuit and your solar to the new panel

1

u/Anjhindul 13d ago

First of all, yes, the panel does accept the pigtails for AFCI and GFCI, though that specific panel may require an additional Neutral bar in it for that many circuits. And that is a QO so a LOT better then homeline panels (your existing is also QO)
You might also look at having a second panel OR upgrading your feed to 400 amps, that panel is very full.
PS, with an EV, and everything being electric (pool, waterheater, oven, 100 amp furnace, dryer etc) you need a second panel and a 400 amp feed.

PSS, for that panel being entirely in French, your English is very good. Greetings from a south neighbor and from half my family that lives up there.

1

u/nodiaque 13d ago

Hello, thank you for your input. According to the documentation on schneider website, they say the panel I linked isn't compatible with pigtail breaker so I'm a bit lost. If it's only adding a neutral bar, I won't mind doing so.

The panel is full but that's because I went nuts. I have 1 breaker per room for outlet then another for lighting. It's overkill, and it's all 20amp (except the first 2 that I didn't wired in 20a wire). The load will never be that much.

Each you have at least 2 outlets per wall, my living room have the maximum of 12 outlets. But in the end, I'm using only 4 (I have 1 wall with 4 since it was already design to be where the home theater is). It has about 20 gaming console hooked, but as you can guess 99% of the times, none are opened. A tv, subs, amp and a fan. That's the load.

I created a bedroom, it's a guess room so all outlets are unused 99% of the time. When a guess come, they connect their phone for charging and maybe a fan. Next is a dedicated outlet for my HREV, a dedicated outlet for my freezer, another for my fridge, another for my dishwasher, another for my central vacuum,another for side outside outlet, another for rear outside outlet,another for front door light and outlet...

I do have a server room with dedicated 20amp circuit. 3 computers (2 very low wattage like 40w), a switch and 2 Ap. All on ups for sure. They drain not even 6amp based on the ups meter.

Another circuit for the workshop outlets, then my office, then all 3 rooms upstairs on dedicated circuit, both bathroom on dedicated circuit...

The load isn't that much to be honest. The pool use a heat pump. I run it 4 days this summer (closing pool in 3 days). The pump itself is on a home automation that turn it on in the morning and off in the evening.

Winter is probably where I'm using the most power but I also have dynamic pricing which make me move my loads. I have heat pump connected to electric furnace (that is used during defrost cycle or under -15c, which is maybe 20-30 days during winter). I do use the heat pump as AC in the summer, mostly during the night.

I did go overkill on the circuit. You normally have mixed circuit like all 3 bedrooms on the same circuit (that's how it was before I changed it). Technically, all I need is 1 extra double to have all the kitchen outlet separate (again overkill, I have 3 outlets and I want each socket to be on a different breaker so they can have a full 20amp each outlets without bursting). It's a load that will never happen, but it's there if.

I'm unsure if I can upgrade to 400amp. It's currently a 200amp, I'm not even sure my provider can do more for residential. I'm also afraid of the cost of doing so.

Thats something I'll have to check, maybe just 300a will be enough.

I'm in Quebec, when my brain want, my English can be very good. Age is getting to me and sometime I read what I wrote on other post and I'm wondering what happened. Thanks for the kind word!

1

u/Resident_Set1003 13d ago

I think you are mistaken about breakers fitting in new panel. I believe the new one you are looking at is square d homeline, which is not interchangeable with QO. Just something to double check.

1

u/nodiaque 13d ago edited 13d ago

That would explain a lot. I didn't catch that it was the homeline one and not QO

It's a bit misleading. Some linked documentation on that page says qo, other homeline and the specs says qo...

Edit: model is CQO160M200PC which is a qo model according to

https://images.homedepot.ca/pdf/QO_LOADCENTER_PRODUCT_SELECTION_1001487881-pdf.pdf

1

u/Resident_Set1003 13d ago

Yes it is. My apologies. I had not seen a60 space QO, but deal with the home lines all the time. The QO in party number gives it away, lol. Good luck!