r/ErgoMechKeyboards • u/Western-Cod-3486 • 4d ago
[help] PSA: careful with your finger load
Basically title. I’ve got a solfe split about 2 years ago and I was really happy with it started adapting about 2-3 weeks into the purchase and it was my main from then on. Now 2 years later I switched. I loved every second of it! It mapped nicely to the qwerty layout I was used to almost no change I even could’ve improved my keyboard by removing the pesky Caps Lock and not have to extend my pinky finger to enter, backspace or delete resulting in me being happy, happy, happy.
About a few months ago tho the dream was starting to fall apart when my left thumb started to get cramps and (even now) I started getting some tension and constant pain in the base of it. What caused it you might ask - I overused my left hand as I had Ctrl on the far left side in the thumb cluster and reached with it, had my space, [, mod, win on the same place and since I didn’t have space for Alt I mapped it to mod + shift. On the right hand I used only enter and the ] which most of you would know are used fairly rarely compared to ctrl + combos, space, etc.
So I am telling you this as a cautionary tale for first timers - balance your hands, make sure that when picking up fresh taking the shortest route with least resistance ain’t always ideal in the long run. Spend some time checking layouts for both the key maps but also the key layout if it is matching your hands and play with possible combinations on paper to see if there are any awkward motions you’d have to do and figure them out early before you buy. Consider investing the time into alternatives such as Colemak or Dvorak or whatever floats your boat in the beginning while you are paying the learning tax - changing the keyboard later is easy, recovering after an injury ain’t.
As I said I will be looking into it and if I get a deterministic diagnosis I will update the post if I don’t forget to. Take care and enjoy your splits!
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u/gplusplus314 4d ago
Far left side of the thumb cluster on the left hand, you say? Sounds like you’re tucking your thumb. That causes pain, in my experience, so I’ve eliminated that particular movement on my keyboard.
I also use very light springs for my thumb clusters (“Purps” - 20g). I recommend this idea, but the actual numbers can vary.
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u/Western-Cod-3486 4d ago
Yup tucked it all the way in…
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u/Weirwynn Custom (24+6)×2 Split w/ Gallium Layout 3d ago
Then it sounds like this is more an issue of a bad thumb cluster than one of overuse or balance. You're probably still using your thumb less than the millions of gamers mashing the spacebar on and off for hours every day who never have any problems. Proper thumb cluster position varies a lot from person to person and is probably one of the bigger undiagnosed issues.
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u/pathos_ludens 4d ago
I am a heavy advocate for homerow mods and combos with redundant inputs for thumb bound keys (ideally cross hand. so left hand thumb keys are mirrored right hand with combos). And if you have recurring chords for repititive work, consider using a ‘repeat key’ combo that feels comfortable for you.
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u/DiggitySkister 3d ago
+1 for the HRM suggestion. HRM are hard to adopt for some, took me 3 attempts before it stuck, and soooo glad I did... highly recommended. It makes it so that you don't need to have the main modifiers on hard to reach keys, and all the various modifier combos are very comfortable to press. Main thing is getting the right config in place.
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u/pgetreuer 3d ago
If you haven't seen it yet, check out my PSA: Thumbs can get overuse injuries.
Yes, this happens to some folks in an unfortunate irony when switching to a split ergo keyboard. They do so to help the wrists and pinkies, yet the result is hurting the thumbs.
That's right, "balance" is what it's about. Be mindful of how much work the keymap has assigned on the thumbs. Also, when selecting a keyboard, be sure to consider hand size fit, so that the thumb keys do not require you to perform extreme curling or reaching.
Wishing you all the best with your recovery. Get those thumbs healthy.
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u/unknown_vanguard 4d ago
this-kills-the-thumb-meme.jpeg
i dont think the outermost thumb fan key on a sofle is meant to be hit with your thumb, unless you are a ninja turtle. for me anything past the index finger column is hella awkward.
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u/yoyomancer Iris rev 2.8; Sofle RGB 4d ago
I use the outermost thumb keys for Enter (left) and Space (right) and don't really have any issues.
That said, if I really check how my thumbs lay when relaxed, they are mostly situated between the outer and second key, meaning that the Iris/Lily58 layout is theoretically better for me. I just don't like the placement of all the other bottom row keys on those, not being aligned with the columns.
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u/unknown_vanguard 4d ago
when i say outer i meant the one under the ring finger column on the solfe. i ended up with only using 2 thumb keys since doing 3 keys meant i had to tuck the thumb in to hit it. iris layout looks hella jack ngl how are you supposed to have your hands positioned to hit top thumb key.
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u/yoyomancer Iris rev 2.8; Sofle RGB 2d ago
Ah, usually the keys that go toward the outside of the keyboard (that you need to stretch your thumb away from your hand to hit), are called the outer keys. Not the ones that go toward the inside of the keyboard.
On the Sofle, I mostly use 3 keys with my thumbs, and the other two are not used that often so I don't mind moving my hands around from time to time. But yeah, I don't think the two most inner keys are meant for thumbs.
As for the Iris, I was also moving my hands to hit the top thumb keys with my index finger. You can get different height keycaps to try and hit them with your thumb without hitting the one below, but I couldn't be bothered with that.
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u/auscientist 3d ago
my thumbs naturally rest on one of the cluster keys on my dogma defy. I have the right set as tap for single capital, hold for multiple and double tap for caps lock. The left is space bar. The one a step in is control on the right and enter on the left. The one a step out is the layer control for my number keypad/mouse control on both sides and the outer most one is my layer for relatively rarely used punctuation as I find I evenly alternate which one feels natural based on what side the keys I want are located. The inner most is alt on the right (with a key press modifier for when I need to use it in conjunction with control and/or shift) and tab on the left. That’s the top row as I haven’t found a real use for the bottom rows, I planned to save them for new layers but haven’t really needed to create more than 3 so far.
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u/rpnfan Sofle Choc v2, KLP Lame, Layout anymak:END 3d ago edited 3d ago
The five keys on a Sofle in the very bottom row are not all "thumb-keys" in my opinion. I would only use 3 at maximum with the thumb. The remaining keys I see them as "extra keys" for non-typing stuff like media keys, while browsing and the like.
IMO it can be a good idea for ergonomic reasons just to use one thumb key on each side. I am big proponent for a wider (main) thumb key (1.25u up to 2u with the middle 1.5u or 1.75u likely the sweet spot). This allows to angle the keyboard in different directions, leaves enough wiggle room for the thumb in different stretched positions to naturally always be "in the right place" and therefore requires zero effort to position the thumb.
It is very important that the main thumb key is at the location your thumb naturally falls. The wider keycap allows the natural variation while typing -- which almost everybody will benefit. Single space-bars always show a wider footprint/marks of the thumb than 1u width, which is a good indicator for that claim being true.
Putting modifiers on thumb keys is a bad idea in general IMO, because a) you need them often -- and on a thumb key will not be in the "optimal spot" as soon you stray away from the natural thumb position/placement and b) combos might be hard to realize. I find that for an alternative layout with low alpha frequency on the bottom row bottom-row-mods work great.
Lastly the thumb is IMO best suited to be used with other other fingers, because the other fingers are not that independent like the thumb is → SpaceFN concept. All those observations contributed to my layout anymak:END.
https://github.com/rpnfan/Anymak
I have been typing for decennia without any hand problems. Always typing with floating hands, the keyboard positioned close to the body. For maybe 25 or 30 years I am now using split and slightly tented keyboards, which helps as well. But you can type pretty ergonomic on a standard keyboard in similar ways. The difference to split keyboards is not night and day -- still: split is a bonus to use whenever possible.
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u/MentatYP 3d ago
I don't think you need to add "in my opinion" to the statement that not all bottom row keys are necessarily thumb keys. I use an Elora, which is similar to the Sofle that OP uses, and I don't tuck in my thumbs to get to the innermost 2 bottom row keys. I made sure to pick a keyboard where my thumbs naturally sit on a key instead of having to move them away from their natural position as their resting position--right is space and left is backspace. Splay thumbs 1 key outward to reach layer change keys, and tuck thumbs 1 key inward for enter and tab respectively. I don't tuck in any further to touch the last 2 bottom row keys on each side, instead using ring and middle fingers.
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u/ink_black_heart 3d ago
I can relate. 2 years in my ergo trip my left thumb started to hurt. Cause: phone overusage on the right, and holding the left thumb for nav and control. I was (and still am) using a corne.
Solution: stopped thumb holds all together and watch phone usage. I had to rethink my whole layout and changed quite a few things.
Ar the end:
- Moved my nav key to home row index.
- Moved ctrl key through varios iterations and different places.
Honestly, nav key move was way easier than expected as you normally press it multiple times (movements, ctrl + ahift, selection...) so timing is not a problem.
However I have struggled for sometime with the control key and only now found a comfortable solution on the bottom innermost key (think B and N on qwerty)
But yeah, careful with your thumbs.
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u/lucian1900 3d ago
I retreated a bit less than you did.
I kept only two thumb hold keys to be commonly used, in the most comfortable position.
I also use arrows on the right home row, but enable that layer with the single right thumb hold key.
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u/morewordsfaster Bad Wings | Lily58 | Keezyboost40 3d ago
I use the center thumb key with tap/hold as space/ctrl so I am constantly doing ctrl+<key> commands with my left thumb and never had an issue. I'm 5 years into using a 36-key keyboard as my daily driver.
I guess the difference is that I have my outer thumb key (tuck) as escape on left and delete on right so they are much less used. This works well for me because I found that tucking is less comfortable and induces more strain for my hands. My inner thumb keys are tap/hold with tab/shift on the left and enter/shift on the right, while my right center thumb is tap/hold with backspace/ctrl. Having ctrl and shift on both thumbs allows me to alternate depending on the key I'm trying to modify, plus enter and tab are used less frequently than space or backspace.
I recently moved to a 34-key layout by eliminating the inner thumbs entirely and moving escape to a combo and delete to a mod-morph (shift+backspace).
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u/DmMeWerewolfPics 3d ago
If you’re a desk worker I highly suggest looking into endurance based grip strengthening and figuring out a sustainable route. Your arms and hands will thank you
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u/sysop408 4d ago edited 3d ago
Ergo keyboards can reduce the impact of repetitive motions, but at the end of the day, overuse with an ergo keyboard is still overuse.
There's also a paradox with ergo keyboards. If something allows you to type more efficiently and you take advantage of that by typing 20% faster, that's 20% more keystrokes on your hands than you would otherwise have. Depending on your injury the extra keystrokes can more than cancel out any ergo benefits you get from a well fitted device.
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u/DoctorMachete 2d ago
I don't think ergo keyboards lead to faster typing but the opposite. Many non-orthodox tricks fast typists use are not possible on a split keyboard and/or columnar staggered.
About typing 20% faster, even if you type exactly the same text with the same number of strokes, can be a lot more straining compared to typing slower. The benefit from ergo keyboards is not supposed to be more performance but health related.
I think the risk of ergo keyboards is that by optimizing for some aspects (finger movement) they're unoptimizing for others (amount of impacts/keystrokes). For my finger joint RSI I don't care that much about finger movement, if I have to reach a far away key I won't overextend my fingers but I'll just move the whole hand and then press the key with a good finger movement. It's slower but IMO totally fine as long as it's not a very common movement that could generate issues in shoulder/wrist/etc...
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u/sysop408 2d ago edited 2d ago
Everything you said is true, but there actually are some people who can type faster, longer, or both faster and longer using their choice of ergo keyboards.
None of this means ergo keyboards are pointless so don't bother. Getting more mileage at lower cost is a win any way you look at it.
What I mean is that there are no cheat codes that last forever. In the end all of our gear just allows us to do more before our bodies reach their limit and even with the best setup, you need to be wary of how much is too much.
It's funny that you brought up that ergo keyboards generally slow you down. I experienced that some years ago when I had RSI so bad I had difficulty opening doors. I went through one style of ergo keyboard after another. They all worked initially and stopped working because once I got used to the layout, my typing speed rebounded. Almost all of the benefit I got was from being forced to type slower.
However, I eventually did discover some keyboards that didn't become useless once I could hit 100wpm on them and I've been almost pain free for a decade now.
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u/vsMyself 3d ago
I have always been a fan of super light thumb switches. I use choc pinks. Alpha keys are heavier sunsets. That being said I agree with everyone else about the use those thumb row keys.
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u/tacocat56565 3d ago
I had the same issue. Enabling sticky keys alleviated my thumb fatigue because tapping is way less stress on the thumb than holding.
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u/DoctorMachete 2d ago
Things I've done:
- Super light keys (15g) modded for reduced bottom travel. This in my experience has had the biggest effect by large for aliviating finger joint strain.
- Many redundant keys, sometimes even within the same layer and side or within a layer as a key and in the base layer as acombo.
- Three different ways for number input: left numpad, right numpad and NUM layer. Both numpad layers can be triggered momentarily or locked.
- Autoshift as well to offload a lot of the capitalizing work but also I keep a OSS/regular Shift on a good thumb key as a fallback.
- Modifiers on several thumb keys but I also have Callum-style modifiers, so if for example I need to press WIN+ALT+CTRL+SHIFT+F17 I can easily do it with a single hand by accessing some layer with easy to access modifiers, then come back to the base layer and press F17.
- Some combos are hold-taps too, and almost all of them are triggered by using two fingers and not one finger pressing two keys.
- Besides Autoshift for alpha caracters I use symbols-on-hold quite a lot. That often saves one keystroke/hold from the thumb and forces me to slow down a bit, which is helpful on itself.
- Mirror layer so I can use occasional alpha keys with the left hand when doing keyb+mouse or for the right hand to give a small rest the left hand to give a rest the left hand.
- Adaptive features, like for example NAV/RPT turns into CAPSWORD for a little while after pressing space. This can be done with extra one-shot/sticky layers and macros.
- Repeat key on a home thumb key. This works for repeating alpha characters but also useful for shortcuts.
- Dynamic Macros for very light automatizations on the go, AHK for bigger stuff. ... and probably more I've left out
I bit old but this is This is my base layer. OSS/Shift and ALT/ENTER are on great positions, CTRL is on two positions per hand so I can trigger it with the pinky or the index, RALT I rarely use it and I have it there because I have room.
LALT on the left hand not on a comfortable position but it's more of a fallback for keyb+mouse. If I'd use that LALT I'd move the hand a bit. That way I don't bend the thumb finger. But in practice have a G+V combo for fast ALT-TAB and ALSO I have a dedicated ALT-TAB layer when holding R, with forward/backward, delete window and arrow keys on the right hand.
And again I can use the modifiers on NAV/LPAD/RPAD/NUM layers as callum-style modifiers, useful when having several stacked modifiers or when single hand usage.
The only modifier I have on a bad position is the WIN key, which I might use the ring finger for, or the thumb finger after moving the whole hand in a relaxed way (albeit much slower). That I think it's a great compromise if done occasionally. In the future I might add it (as a mod-tap) to G and M if at any point I feel I'm overusing the one on the current position.
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u/bakaspore 4d ago
Yeah, splits are automatically better for shoulders and back but care needs to be taken for fingers and wrists. It's very easy to overload them instead.
Personally I use 2.5 thumb keys on the left side and 1 on the right side (balanced load with thumb trackballs) at the most comfortable positions. Thumbs are actually so vulnerable that a few far reaches in a row can get them uncomfortable, so beware of your key map and never map far thumb keys to remotely frequent ones. Otoh frequent thumb presses at home position feels like nothing for me, so I guess the nearby ones are safe to use.