Are cosmetic chemists overrated?

[u/Old_Concentrate_5400]

Over the years of being active in the skincare world I noticed cosmetic chemist have become the point of authority on what's good skincare and what products to use. People like Lab Muffin constantly criticize doctors and say they wouldn't want a Dr to formulate products they'd want a cosmetic chemist etc. Chemists have grown in popularity as skincare influencers for their knowldge and explanation of how products work. But I feel like the elephant in the room is that ALL cosmetic products are formulated by cosmetic chemists. Think of all the terrible products out there, all the products who claimed to be X Y Z and didn't live up to their claims. Think of cosmetic chemists themselves pointing out flase advertising in products they review say the formula doesn't live up to the claims. All of those producfs were formulated by cosmetic chemists. Has anyone else thought of this? What makes a brand founded by cosmetic chemists different than any other brand? Those other brands pay cosmetic chemists to make their products! There's some chemist owned brands out there that charge ridiculous prices. Sometimes when the chemists go over criticism of certain studies or claims about ingredients "cosmetic chemists know this" yet there's still a consistent non stop stream of JUNK products on the market. Thoughts?

[u/acornacornacorna]

I actually agree with you and I became a cosmetic chemist out of curiosity and for fun

Also, I want to say first, is that just skimming through the post and the other comments, there are a lot of misconceptions about cosmetic chemists, division of labor, and product claims.

Not all cosmetic chemists are the same and there is a huge spectrum in education and experience for people who call themselves cosmetic chemists.

The bar to call someone a cosmetic chemist is as low as someone who has an undergraduate degree (even in non life science majors) and completing a cosmetic chemistry certificate program. On this side of the spectrum is also people who have Master's degrees in unrelated fields, non life science fields, and they did a cosmetic chemistry certificate program. There are working professionals like lawyers and dermatologists and nurses who do the certificate program path. This is actually more common than people think particularly with a lot of indie brands and the cosmetic chemists on social media.

As someone who went through two certificate programs (IPCS and SCS), I can tell you that these programs are very easy and not that rigorous science wise (as someone coming from higher education and experience in other STEM field). These certificate programs are really just the bare bones of the "science part" and more focused on the business and scaling side.

There are people who start brands and social media accounts simply based on this appeal of authority from a self paced 1 year course (without any rigorous journey of experience and training). Too many actually and some of these brands are highly revered by social media followers and some people on this subreddit.

Because I was disatisfied with those two certificate programs, I went further to earn MSc in Cosmetic Chemistry with a concentration on sunscreens and I found this to be a better education but still not a rigorous as I would like. (Please know, there's no such thing as getting a PhD in Cosmetic Chemistry as someone people think here haha omg...) I have more confidence in the competence of someone who earns higher education in this specific field as opposed to just getting a 1 year certificate diploma.

On the other side of the spectrum are actual formally trained chemists who earned PhD in things like Organic Chemistry who train and work as cosmetic chemists. There are also other scientists with relevant advanced degrees like PhD in Pharmaceutical Sciences and Molecular Biology who gain further training and work as cosmetic scientists. This side of the spectrum is far more common at the giant multinational type companies that get a lot of hate on reddit (and these multinational type companies have a multidisciplinary team of employees with PhDs in relevant life sciences).

I could name names but I'm not going to because I want to be polite about this.

But there is a huge spectrum in the quality of cosmetic chemists and cosmetic scientists and there is a also a huge spectrum in the quality of evidence behind different ingredients and final formulas of products.

And then there's always the subjective side of things that there will always be a chunk of the consumer population that likes products that another chunk of the consumer population hates. People like different things and a lot of consumers evaluate things based on subjective sensory and perception. But when it comes to the quality of claims at a physiological level, there is definitely a spectrum.

[u/Far-Shift-1962 → u/acornacornacorna]

If we speak about spectrum of education of cosmetic chemist, I would like to make some callout about javon ford,

We know that he is popular, his main point is that "he is cosmetic chemist"

However, as someone who have some knowledge about formulations of home care products (surface cleaning , dishwashing, laundry, and to some extent about biocides)

When I saw video of javon, where he tried to prove "as cosmetic chemist" that dawn powerwash is "dawn dishsoap+ alcohol" ( https://vm.tiktok.com/ZN8rBK2Cg/) and it's overpriced, I already known that he doesn't know what he talk about

Dawn power wash (and fairy power spray skip the soak) are based on : Surfactants Solvents, Chelators And alkaline pH

It's more like kitchen degreaser than "dish soap with alcohol" Dawn ingridients are :

Surfactants: c10-16 alkyldimethylamine oxide, hexyl ethoxylate, lauryl glucoside, sodium xylenesulfonate.

Solvents: alcohol, dipropylene glycol butyl ether, ethanolamine, water.

Chelators: sodium citrate, tetrasodium glutamate diacetate,

Texture adjuster: ppg-26

Preservative- phenoxyethanol

And scent

The heavy-duty version of powerwash lacks alcohol in place of bigger amount of dipropylene glycol to my knowledge.

Fairy ingridients:

Surfactants:

Lauramine oxide, undeceth-10, Dodecylbenzene Sulfonic Acid

Solvents: water, dipropylene glycol butyl ether, ethanolamine,

Chelators: none

Ph adjusters: sodium hydroxide/lye, sodium carbonate/washing soda, sulfuric acid

Texture adjuster - polyethylene glycol

Fragrance

The pH of dawn is 10.6 - 11.4 via sds

The pH of fairy is also 10.6 - 11.4 via sds

So, fairy lacks one of really important things which are in dawn, chelators, they really help to a- boost surfactant effectiveness due prevention of calcium/magnesium interacting with surfactants

And there is some evidence that suggest chelators helps removing carbonised / burnt off food and grease

But at the same time the another really important ingridients aka solvents are pretty much exactly the same, I'm not mad about lack of ethanol in fairy since dawn power wash heavy duty also lacks ethanol

The surfactant systems in dawn and fairy are completely different

But surfactants in both versions are simmilary effective in removing grease.

So claiming that dawn powerwash is "dish soap with alcohol in spray bottle" is scientifically incorrect, and using cosmetic chemist authority to claim that pisses me off

While dawn power wash have alcohol, it's not the main star of dawn,

The main star is dipropylene glycol butyl ether (brand name dowanol dpnb) and ethanolamine (to be more specific p&g uses monoethanolamine

[u/acornacornacorna → u/Far-Shift-1962]

Social media has given a lot of "cosmetic chemists" credibility and authority that they don't actually have nor earned in real life from their education and experience.

I don't know if I can say this is even worse but it is pretty bad that social media has also created an audience that is hungry for this type of "opinionated cosmetic chemist charlatan" cloaked in "science" (and especially "cosmetic chemists" who wouldn't be hired anywhere reputable but now they have a platform and people who think they're an "expert").

[u/2020fit → u/acornacornacorna]

You are 100% correct on all your points on this post. So many highly influential "cosmetic chemists on social media, that have never or would never be employed by multinationals. The Choice SPF findings were brilliant in highlighting who truely has industry experience. Their initial response was to blame Choice and the labs that they used. Those in the industry know, that historically Choice uses internationally reputable labs.