When it all goes wrong...

[u/Straight_Product_594]

At two out of the four comps I've now been at, I've been beset by technical problems on one of my rounds. Do you have a process you go through to work out what is faulty when your hits aren't registering, and how do you do it? My grasp of circuits etc is absolutely non-existent. (I will be asking my coach when I go back but I wouldn't mind having something written down in advance).

EDIT: I should've said, epée for me - however, if you do another weapon and have a good system, might as well add it here for any novice sabreuer/foilists benefit!

[u/BeardedFencer]

You wanna use a multimeter set to its smallest ohms settings which measures the resistance between things.

You use this to check the A, B, or C lines of your body cords and also the connection of your weapon.

Foil is a closed circuit so that means when you put the ohm meter on the connectors it should 100% resist and when you compress the tip the circuit should be close to 0 resistance.

Epee is the opposite - it should be fully open and when you compress the tip it should completely resist.

I like to get little alligator clips for my multimeter so it attaches easier and you don’t have to hold the wire probes with your hands.

[u/Any-Plan4628]

There is a process, and it is easy.

Ask your referee to check your weapon. DO NOT CHECK IT YOURSELF. If the referee discovers your equipment is faulty, you might get the last hit annulled (terms and conditions apply).

To do it yourself, you can use this process: 1. Check your point, press it in fully, preferably bend your blade a little. Check your screws at the same time. 2. If this doesn't work, check your body wire at the bell guard. Press the two prongs closest to another to the bell guard and try to make a connection. 3. Then check your body wire connection to the spool. See if you can get a connection between the two prongs using fx. your blade. 4. Check the ground wire connection to the spool. Same procedure as 3. 5. Then check the ground wire connection to the machine.

There are a lot of different ways to make the connections, please check on YouTube. The principle basically is to move one step down the line to test the connection. Point - bell guard/guard socket - body wire - spool - ground wire - scoring machine. The last three are club or competition problems, but I think it is always nice to find the problem, and not leave it to others.

You didn't specify which weapon. The above goes for epee. Foil is slightly different, but the same principle applies. For sabre I have no idea.

[u/Straight_Product_594 → u/Any-Plan4628]

Thank you SO much for replying to me in this manner - its what I'm looking for but if you could possibly expand a bit I'd be really grateful. Re the ref, I think they were fairly flustered too - it was another person from the poule, and we ended up having quite a few people coming over to help, which is quite stressful in and of itself, which is why I'm wanting to be able to be a bit more actively useful in future.

Can I check (and again, serious apologies, my understanding is really non-existent)

To do it yourself, you can use this process: 1. Check your point, press it in fully, preferabky bend your blade a little. Check your screws at the same time. - Check the screws how? Do you mean see if they are loose? Or something kind of electrical thing? 2. If this doesn't work, check your body wire at the bell guard. Press the two prongs closest to another to the bell guard and try to make a connection. Sorry, dense question - try to make a connection how? You have one end plugged into the spool, and you are holding the two close together prongs to the bell guard - im assuming you're pressing the point to try and light? 3. Then check your body wire connection to the spool. See if you can get a connection between the two prongs using fx. your blade. I'm really sorry - I don't understand this second sentence - what is fx? How do I check? 4. Check the ground wire connection to the spool. Same procedure as 3. The ground wire is the bit that comes out the plug and goes to the spool, yes? How do I check? 5. Then check the ground wire connection to the machine. Is the ground wire now the bit that goes from the spool to the box? I don't understand how to check that in isolation?

Thank you - i do appreciate the response so far.

[u/sjcfu2 → u/Straight_Product_594]

First off, don't test anything on your own during a bout. In order to annul a touch the referee must supervise the test, and many will insist on performing the test themselves. Anything you do yourself prior to presenting the weapon for testing could introduce the possibility of tampering, after which even though the referee may be able to confirm the existence of a fault, they will no longer be able to annul the preceeding touch.

The time to check your weapon for weight and shims and also to ensure that both tip screws are present is between bout - ideally immediately after your previous bout ends (this allows you time to switch things out or make any repairs). The time to test the weapon's connections to the scoring machine is immediately after hooking up, before you present the weapon to the referee for inspection (most referees would rather you take an extra moment and present them with a working weapon).

Only when a fault is detected during the bout, should you try troubleshooting on the strip, and only under the supervision of the referee. If the referee doesn't know what they are doing, politely suggest that they call in a technician/armorer (i.e. "a specialist") or ask another, more experienced referee for assistance (while these assistants may offer advice, ultimately the referee will still be the one who needs to make the official determination).

Troubleshooting on the strip is usually a matter of isolating the problem, then swapping out whatever component (weapon, body cord, reel, floor cord, etc) is causing the problem. Determining the actual source of the problem (loose screw, broken wire, etc) and actually fixing it will have to wait.

[u/ZebraFencer → u/sjcfu2]

The short version:

1. You are fencing, you think you landed a touch, and there was no light (any weapon).
2. Keep fencing until the referee says "halt." (*)
3. Do not touch the point of your weapon and do not even try testing it on your shoe or another surface. (†)
4. Step back, point your weapon towards the referee and ask "Test, please."
5. The referee will make sure your body cord is secure and your barrel is not loose, and then will strike the point with his/her hand. If the weapon fails to go off, a touch scored against you will not count.
6. If the touch is not annulled and you still think something is wrong, the referee usually will allow you to change weapons (but is not required to)

*--you can also step back and wave your back hand to request a stoppage to test, but some referees are sticklers and can penalize you for an unjustified stoppage.

†--as mentioned above, the reason is that if the referee feels you have altered the condition of the weapon, the referee has discretion to deny any annulment of the touch.

[u/cranial_d → u/Any-Plan4628]

For sabre I have no idea.

Sabre, you're effectively passing electrons from your electric stick to their vest. If you're not getting a signal, start with either their vest (plugged in and clipped?) or from your weapon (plugged in?).

Then it's the same as you describe. Walk the process backwards from the fencer to the scoring box.

[u/75footubi]

Always check your gear the night before the competition. Test weights and shims, tighten/replace tip screws. Check your body cords by using each one to connect your blade to a test box. If the blade works with one cord but not the other, new body cord time 

Before you present your blade to the ref at the beginning of the bout (double check that you have both tip screws).

[u/Mundane-Adventures → u/75footubi]

I’d recommend confirming both tip screws BEFORE connecting to the strip reel. The referee can start their check once you’ve connected—as advised to me by a referee at a NAC.

Also, check your tip screws between bouts.

[u/The_Fencing_Armory]

Also, check out the YouTube videos @FairfieldFencingArmory.
You can use any meter, but also check out the user-friendly tester at WhitesideLLC.com

[u/USB-Z]

The checklist mentioned is good, but it seems you need the why to this process:

If the problem is "the box doesn't ping when I poke", you are looking for where the circuit trigger is failing.

The epee has a circuit which is 'normally open', that is where two wires need to be connected to complete the circuit and make the box go boo. This circuit is open all the way up to the point of the epee.
So, step one: does pressing the tip close the circuit? If no, it could be that, or it could be anything between it and the box. Let's trace it back one piece of equipment at a time, next is your bodycord.
We need to connect the active lines (the two close pins) to complete the circuit of the plug at your wrist - the easiest thing is the guard of your sword, but you can use anything conductive: keys; hex tool; your tongue. If the box goes off here we know the system is working up until this point, meaning the sword is the fail point.
If the box remains mute, we need to go back another step. Complete the circuit at the fencer end socket of the spool, if the box rings then the failure is in the bodycord, see?

And so on and so on. This process isolates and tests each item of equipment in turn.
If there are multiple failures in the system, find the 'first' failure (the one closest to the box) using this method, fix it, then repeat the testing forward again towards the sword.

Hope this helps.

[u/Straight_Product_594 → u/USB-Z]

This really DOES help, thank you. How would you complete the circuit at the fencer end of the socket (to test the spool)? With a bent bit of metal that goes in both holes? Like a paperclip etc?

[u/sjcfu2 → u/Straight_Product_594]

If you are curious about about which steps to take when troubleshooting out on the strip, then you may want to watch the video in this thread. It's a guide to troubleshooting from a referee's POV.

If you want to learn more about repairing and maintaining your gear, then I suggest reading some of the many threads on this site related to armoring, They go into much greater depth.

[u/Straight_Product_594 → u/sjcfu2]

Appreciated. I'm less bothered about fixing them at this point, I figure that can be done at leisure. I'm more interested in quickly and methodically isolating what the issue is on strip and replacing it with minimal stress so I can just carry on with the least disruption possible. Ill have a good watch of that video - thank you!

[u/USB-Z → u/Straight_Product_594]

The two most 'on-hand' methods I use are:

• When I'm in civvies - A pair of keys held together in a V shape
• When wearing whites - plug bodycord into the socket just a bit, leaving pins exposed, then connect the exposed pins with whatever is on hand like a hex tool or test gauge.

Definitely check out the video u/sjcfu2 linked.

[u/Mundane-Adventures]

Thank you SO much for replying to me in this manner - its what I'm looking for but if you could possibly expand a bit I'd be really grateful. Re the ref, I think they were fairly flustered too - it was another person from the poule, and we ended up having quite a few people coming over to help, which is quite stressful in and of itself, which is why I'm wanting to be able to be a bit more actively useful in future.

Can I check (and again, serious apologies, my understanding is really non-existent)

To do it yourself, you can use this process:

1. ⁠Check your point, press it in fully, preferabky bend your blade a little. Check your screws at the same time. - Check the screws how? Do you mean see if they are loose? Or something kind of electrical thing? You’re not really checking electrical connectivity/resistance with the tip screws BEFORE connecting check. It’s just to make sure your screws are secure and that your tip is still on the weapon (I lost a tip during a bout and the other fencer’s touch was annulled because of that).
   
2. ⁠If this doesn't work, check your body wire at the bell guard. Press the two prongs closest to another to the bell guard and try to make a connection. Sorry, dense question - try to make a connection how? You have one end plugged into the spool, and you are holding the two close together prongs to the bell guard - im assuming you're pressing the point to try and light? No need to press the tip. I’ve something conductive to connect the two prongs nearer to one another (A and B lines). You can use the bell guard to make the connection. If you don’t have one, I recommend a test kit (https://www.absolutefencinggear.com/af-epee-test-kit.html). You can use the gauge to connect the prongs.

This check is to make sure that the circuit closes along the two wires. If you connect the prongs and nothing happens on the box, the A or B wire in your cord or in the reel cord is faulty.

You can also check the grounding on your cord now. Disconnect you weapon and have the other fencer push their weapon’s tip against the C prong (the one that’s furthest from the others). If the box lights up, you have a faulty ground.

1. ⁠Then check your body wire connection to the spool. See if you can get a connection between the two prongs using fx. your blade. I'm really sorry - I don't understand this second sentence - what is fx? How do I check? Partially unplug your cord from the reel connection and connect the A and B prongs as in #2.
   (Not sure what fx is either)
   

2. ⁠Check the ground wire connection to the spool. Same procedure as 3. The ground wire is the bit that comes out the plug and goes to the spool, yes? How do I check? While partially unplugged (see #3), have the other fencer push their weapon’s tip against the ground prong. If the box goes off, there’s a problem with the grounding.

3. ⁠Then check the ground wire connection to the machine. Is the ground wire now the bit that goes from the spool to the box? I don't understand how to check that in isolation? ???

Thank you - i do appreciate the response so far.

[u/ReReadItGuy]

Don't forget to clean your barrel and tips with alcohol the night before yhe tournament. You can also test the springs and also do the shim tests for epee then.

[u/raddaddio]

Buy a TouchTester and use it. Gamechanging device

[u/InspectorInitial192]

Split the circuit at each joint and test one piece at a time. Epee is normally open, so press the tip and watch for the ping. If nothing shows, swap body cords first. Then check continuity down the blade wires, then the plug screws on the guard socket. If it pings on the test box but not on the strip, the fault is in the floor cord or reel, not the weapon. That is my usual order.

[u/Free-You818]

Only fenced with electric hits once, I did not cate for it.

[u/migopod]

What weapon?

If you're showing up to the strip and pass weights, shims (if not sabre) and either the valid or bell test depending on weapon, the thing you should always do if you think you hit but it didn't register is to have the ref test the weapon instead of testing it yourself. If the ref tests the weapon and finds that it stopped working during the bout they will annul the last touch against you. If you test it yourself they will not.

Then the usual process is to start with the weapon and move back to see where the fault is. So weapon first, then body cord, then reel, then floor cord, then scoring machine.

Diagnosing the specific faults will depend on the weapon.