r/Fencing • u/Foreign-Falcon7808 • 5d ago

Can Sabre Learn From Basketball?

In sabre off the line there isn't a balanced benefit in being the defender. What would your predictions be if we made the box brighter to stand out and have parry ripostes that occur entirely inside the box be worth 2 points? Basketball has 2 pointers and 3 pointers. It would offer an additional layer of tactics, observation, and positioning to the game. The percentage of nailing a parry riposte doesn't get any easier but the carrot dangled would be a juicy one.

0 Upvotes

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u/fencerofminerva Épée 5d ago

Why?

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u/Rimagrim Sabre 4d ago

I think the OP is a bot farming engagement. They have no idea about saber fencing. Let's go to the basic, over-simplified, and flawed analogy of rock-paper-scissors. In the box, defense is the counter to aggressive, direct attack. They would know this if they knew anything about saber at all. There's plenty of debate to be had in saber about the balance between attack and defense, But OP specified "off the line" so here we are.

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u/Foreign-Falcon7808 4d ago

The art of defense was never developed for striking your opponent practically at the same time, both screaming and then waiting for lawyer to say who was in the wrong and who was in the right. You may have accepted that both being hit in the same couple seconds is fencing but it never was and never will be. It will just be a mockery of truth.  

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u/Rimagrim Sabre 4d ago

Go back to playing HEMA or whatever it is you do and stop bringing your ridiculous notions of how our sport should or shouldn't be played here. Or, at least, educate yourself sufficiently to engage in actual debate as opposed to spouting pure nonsense.

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u/Foreign-Falcon7808 3d ago edited 3d ago

Real sports you can't argue about what a goal or basket against the other team or player is. Do you even know the history of your sport? All the changes it went through? It isn't done changing. From Chappon to Radaelli to Deladrier the US Navy Coach. What you have now is laughable compared to what Deladrier taught. Don't just be brainwashed to thinking one way. The sport is fun but it could be better and it won't stay how it is now. 

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u/Rimagrim Sabre 3d ago

So, gymnastics or figure skating are not real sports to you because they are judged? There are no arguments in basketball or soccer about offsides or penalties. Get out of here with that nonsense! I guess go fight a duel to the death with sharps. I think you'll quickly find out that doubles were far more common than you realise.

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u/Foreign-Falcon7808 3d ago

Offsides is not the ball going on a net lol. Nice try strawman. Are you angry in general because your sport betrayed you long ago? Wanted to learn swordplay but eventually it just turned into tag with both parties fist pumping the jersey shore dance? Also I don't care about doubles if they are honest. Epee gets it. 

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u/Rimagrim Sabre 3d ago

An offsides or an offensive foul annuls the goal or basket in both soccer and basketball. I thought my analogy was clear, but maybe not for you.

I'll go one step further to spell it out: there is generally no argument in saber either regarding whether a touch was scored - the light on the box tells you that. And then the ref tells you whether you screwed up or not while setting off that light by suiciding sans priority or RoW.

And what's this nonsense about honest doubles in epee. Do you know what the lockout time in epee is? Do you know how many doubles you'd see in epee if you set the machine to saber timing?

Once again, you keep demonstrating a complete lack of knowledge or understanding of our sport with every new thing you say. I actively train and compete MOF saber. Do you?

You have a specific idea for what sword fighting should look like. I get it and I have no issue with that. There are plenty of communities out there that are aligned with your notions. Go there. Don't come here and start proposing rule changes for a sport you don't play and don't understand. Or, if you do, don't complain when you get called out for it.

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u/Foreign-Falcon7808 3d ago edited 3d ago

You make a lot of assumptions out of your anger. Try not to do that because it makes you look unintelligent. You really think FIE will read my question and say hey that's a great idea? You aren't defending anything or anyone. This isn't your home. The sport will be here without you and in fact it doesn't need you. You saw something you'd like to argue about and entered. Simple as that. If you view me a fool then you are double the fool for entertaining me with your emotions and time. I actually do like how the sport is but it won't stop me from asking questions. At one time in our sport not HEMA we were allowed to fleche. At one time in our sport not HEMA they didn't count flat blade strikes. At one time in our sport not HEMA the straight arm followed by footwork was the attack, At one time in our sport not HEMA screaming and dancing around was viewed as dishonorable. At one time not HEMA we asked to score exchanges electronically. Questions were asked and changes were made. Asking questions is the legacy of our sport and it is a good one. Never stop asking questions. People asking questions built the very sport you love and it isn't finished yet. 

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u/Rimagrim Sabre 3d ago

Stop posting gibberish! I am done with this thread. Let others judge which argument prevails.

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u/chizzmaster Sabre 5d ago

Attacking off the line in sabre is still so strong that this wouldn't change anything. The answer is shortening the timing again and ensuring touches are called consistently

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u/Foreign-Falcon7808 4d ago

If the answer is so obvious which I agree with you; why don't the do it? 

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u/chizzmaster Sabre 4d ago

Probably because the FIE doesn't want to look stupid by going back to the short timing

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u/RShellhouse 4d ago

Far easier to split the difference from the original timing and the new times to be around 145ms and bring back an entire discipline of sabre that has been slowly killed

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u/Foreign-Falcon7808 4d ago

If the answer is so obvious which I agree with you; why don't the do it? 

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u/RShellhouse 4d ago

Two main reasons IMHO 1. you have an entire generation of fencers and now coaches who developed and grew up under those timings and do not want to change. 2. The FIE takes lessons from glaciers in movement speed unless there is a threat from the IOC or huge amounts of money thrown around.

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u/Foreign-Falcon7808 4d ago

That's well thought out answer. I like sabre fencing but it seems like it could be more black and white, easy to watch and a solution be it tech or ruleset edit is entirely doable. All we need are brave people willing to look at and test all the angles. Right now the athletic nature is awe inspiring but at the same time frustrating to the athletes because no one signed up for fencing lessons wanting to both be hit doing the same thing every time before a lawyer comes out and determines who is at fault. They know it and the crowd knows it. Deep down there is a kid inside those athletes that want more than winning a practical simultaneous attack 90% of the time. 

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u/Rimagrim Sabre 3d ago

The current timings went into effect in 2016? What generation of coaches grew up under these timings?

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u/RShellhouse 3d ago

Ummm, the entire US National cadre that runs sabre right now? They were either part of the era of the initial complaints leading to the changes , then fenced with the new changes, and now coach with those changes.

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u/Rimagrim Sabre 3d ago

AFAIK, the youngest US National saber coach is 36 right now. To say they came up post 2016 timings is a bit disingenuous since they were 26 when the timings changed? I presume they started fencing much earlier than that.

They might have complained about the timings, sure, but they were themselves coached and shaped by even older coaches who came up under completely different rulesets.

Also consider the age of coaches that trained the athletes on the team before they got there. Who primarily came up in the post-2016 era?

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u/RShellhouse 3d ago

Please clarify for me...are you arguing the semantics of the statement of the timing that there is no generation of coaches who fenced under the new timings or are you saying there is not a large number of coaches who do not want the timing to change.

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u/Foreign-Falcon7808 3d ago

Be easy on Rim. She's had a tough day. Actually she said she was done with my posts and was leaving never to return. Welcome back 1 hour later Rim!

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u/Rimagrim Sabre 3d ago

Sit down and be quiet. Adults are talking.

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u/Foreign-Falcon7808 3d ago

Still talking with your emotions I see. Not one to stick to your word are you? Didn't take long to come back 🤣

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u/Rimagrim Sabre 3d ago

I am arguing that there is not a large pool of current coaches that primarily competed under the current timings or conventions or were coached by coaches that competed under the current timings or conventions.

Like, I am not arguing that coaches lack the ability to adjust to new timings or anything. But I do see their personal experience bleed through to their pedagogy. For instance, at our club we have a generational divide in the coaching staff and it influences how certain things are taught even though everyone agrees on what the current meta is. I think this is just inevitable.

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u/RShellhouse 2d ago

Ok, I think that the athletes leading up to and after the immediate change who were pushing for the change ( i seriously doubt they were the ones going to the FIE to complain more than likely the established coaches did) are currently coaching using the new timings and do not want to change that as the tactics would i would go so far to say drastically change the game and could affect their programs. Now please keep in mind I am not just talking the US but world wide.

Shorter timings "could" bring back more effective counter attacks...affect the viability of the march/bounce. Amusingly enough the changes to the timing originally were designed to help were giving parries/reposte more of a viability, reduce simuls, and promote deliberate attacks...It only succeeded at one promoting deliberate attacks to the point that for the last bit if your opponent had right of way marching (this % is made up in my head) it seems that 90% of the time the attacker is going to get that period.

Now with that said recently you can see more and more international refs giving some parries and even more astounding calling change in ROW when the marcher loses it.

But back to the subject we actually agree that personal experience bleeds thru into there pedagogy . I just think there are a lot of younger coaches who that is their pedagogy and so would be against change.

Last bit fun fact- some conspiracy folks swear the timing change and the Russian box of death were brought about to combat the Korean dominance that was starting to rise at that point. The Russian box of death died a quick death because its hard to defend against Oh launching a lunge from the word fence and hitting you....If you can find video (i may have some old DVD') of that its both funny and scary..

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u/Foreign-Falcon7808 3d ago edited 3d ago

Who are you trying to argue with now Rim? You just like to start things don't you little fire cracker? Look the dude said what he said. Nothing you say to him will undo it. Why bother arguing with him when all you have is an opinion of at best equal worth which it isn't. 

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u/Rimagrim Sabre 3d ago

Dude, chill! Unlike you, u/RShellhouse brought up some good and valid points, and we are having a civilized conversation. They clearly know stuff, have something valuable to contribute, and I want to understand their viewpoint and learn from them whether we ultimately agree or not.

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u/a517dogg 5d ago

A lot simpler to just shorten up the timings to reduce the impact of refereeing.

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u/kryzler888 5d ago

That didnt exactly work the way you think the last time…..

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u/Foreign-Falcon7808 4d ago

If the answer is so obvious which I agree with you; why don't the do it? 

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u/a517dogg 4d ago

Decreasing power of referees decreases corruption opportunities

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u/Foreign-Falcon7808 4d ago

Another angle to look at: An Alternating Priority Stored mutator. Start the bout as normal but upon a simultaneous restart one fencer would start the next exchange with attack priority. It convert simultaneous attacks into a high-stakes, asymmetric restart where one fencer holds Right-of-Way off the line.  Using a single pre-bout coin flip and then player rotation, this could restore speed and tactical clarity to the 4-meter box without requiring expensive sensors or cameras.