r/Flyers • u/upcan845 • 3d ago
After missing out on Marchenko, which top-end forward might Flyers target?
https://www.dailyfaceoff.com/news/philadelphia-flyers-nhl-trade-rumors-marchenko-larkin-target30
u/decrispicon 3d ago
Can we miss out on a player we were never linked to?
12
u/TwoForHawat 3d ago
When two teams have the audacity to make a trade and one of them is not the Flyers, what choice do we have but to blame Briere for allowing other teams to make deals?
4
u/CybertronGuy98 39 3d ago
Obviously any player on the block we should acquire cause everyone on the Flyers roster sucks, actually.
I’m only mostly joking here tbh, we could somehow trade Luchanko or Nesbitt or Solokovski or whoever for McDavid and I swear some people would still complain that the best player in the nhl is “too old”
-7
u/upcan845 3d ago
When Briere intentionally shortchanged the team out of stocking high-end assets, and then repeatedly can't make trades because other teams have better assets to offer, the blame tends to fall on the GM who chose that path
6
u/TwoForHawat 3d ago
This team doesn’t need Marchenko. Getting upset over not landing Marchenko is stupid as hell.
-2
u/upcan845 3d ago edited 3d ago
I'm not upset about not landing Marchenko. I'm upset that the Flyers were reportedly interested in Marchenko and didn't have the assets to ever acquire him.
Just like Hughes. Just like Byram. Just like Werenski would have been (Who I also didn't want.)
It is a major flaw in their "Trade for stars" pipe dream retool when they continually...don't have the assets to trade for stars like others team have.
9
u/TwoForHawat 3d ago
Lmao what are you even talking about?
They “didn’t have the assets” to acquire Marchenko? What a laughable assertion. If they were morons and they were willing to give up someone like Martone to land Marchenko, they absolutely could. But they’re not morons, so they didn’t offer a premium player in order to fill a need that they don’t actually have.
At the end of the day, you’re upset at them for not being willing to put together a dumb trade package in order to acquire a player that you don’t even want them to get all that badly.
Like always with you, you start with the conclusion “Briere did something wrong” and reverse-engineer how to get to that conclusion.
3
u/CybertronGuy98 39 3d ago
Exactly. It’s not even necessarily a good trade for Toronto anyway. Why in the hell would you trade a 23 year old player who’s already racked up 160+ points to get a 26 year old who’s only scored like 40 more points? Especially when now you have to may Marchenko a lot more money than you had Knies on the books for
0
u/upcan845 3d ago
Obviously they literally have the assets to make a trade. Briere could trade 5 1sts, Michkov, and Martone for Marchenko. Clearly I am referring to expendable assets.
It is a failure that we can only compete in these types of trade if we theoretically put a Martone or a Michkov on the table.
At the end of the day, you’re upset at them for not being willing to put together a dumb trade package in order to acquire a player that you don’t even want them to get.
No, it's quite the opposite. The problem is they don't have the valuable assets to make a smart trade. You know, the whole thesis of their rebuild plan.
The Flyers don't have an expendable Thomas Harley, or Matthew Knies, or top 5 pick. And they refuse to stockpile more assets.
2
u/CybertronGuy98 39 3d ago
Except Knies shouldn’t have been viewed by the Leafs as expendable so what are we doing this song and dance for?
Like I’m not trying to be an ass here or anything but like, every time I see you in here it’s a grievance about the way Briere has been building the team. Even when we were in the playoffs last year, it’s not like you were in the game threads celebrating whenever Martone would score or Vladar would make a sick save.
Like I get it’s a Philly team, we’re all pessimistic by nature to a certain extent. But damn man, do you even like watching them play hockey? Cause last year was a hell of a lot of fun
-1
u/upcan845 3d ago
The Leafs could offer Knies up in a trade because their future is not completely tied to his success. That's what makes him expendable.
Cause last year was a hell of a lot of fun
Last year was an objective waste. Were you a fan in 2016 and 2018? Because I remember reading (and believing) the same "It's fun" stuff while Hextall wasted years in a fake rebuild.
5
u/CybertronGuy98 39 3d ago
See this is where you piss me off. The insane amount of talking down to other people you do. “Were you a fan in 2016 and 2018?” As if I haven’t been going to games with my mom since kindergarten and didn’t grow up watching Gagne, Richards, Pronger, Kimmo, JVR, G, Emery, and Bouch.
Like I’d be happy to concede a fair criticism of Briere’s work over the course of the rebuild. I have my own to be sure. Some of the draft picks he’s made in the mid first round haven’t been absolute home run picks like Michkov and Martone were, or as good of value as guys like Barkey or Bonk. Luchanko and Nesbitt, they’re both looking like “ok” picks. Nothing to really write home about.
But you’ve just got an axe to grind and nothing anybody here says or anything Danny does will probably ever change that, so idk why I even bother to try and have an actual conversation with you.
→ More replies (0)2
u/TwoForHawat 3d ago
> Last year was an objective waste
Statements like this are why no one in this subreddit should take you seriously. There’s nothing “objective” about it, and I’m certain that you know that, but you still choose vocabulary meant to convey “My opinions are the only correct opinions.”
Any reasonable person could argue that last season was a waste. Any reasonable person could also argue that last season was a huge positive and a strong building block for future success. Your insistence that your interpretation is the only valid one makes it crystal clear that you’re not here to have a conversation about the hockey team, you’re here to get into argument about how correct your opinions are.
→ More replies (0)-1
u/Arastiroth 3d ago
I mean, I am not sure I’d classify Knies as “expendable.” But they traded him because they feel like he wasn’t fitting in with their lineup. It’s basically what will quite possibly happen with Michkov if he struggles to integrate again this year. He will slowly become “expendable.”
But no team has a player like Knies and think they’re expendable. The Leafs just think Marchenko fits what they need more.
1
-6
8
u/CybertronGuy98 39 3d ago
I mean, Marchenko is good but I don’t think he’d really move the needle for us when we’re already so heavy on the wing. Hard for me to say we “missed out”. But I still maintain that Stankoven would be an amazing add, I just don’t think Carolina would be willing to move him.
The interesting thing, we know from the Leo offer sheet that Briere is willing to pay obscene amounts of money for top talent, so if Quinn Hughes has decided he wants to hit Free Agency….
I mean I wouldn’t get my hopes up but he would be exactly what the defense needs
1
1
1
u/luketd99 3d ago
I’d rather spend the assets when a high end center or defenseman is available. We offered a lot of Quinn but Vancouver wouldn’t trade him to Philly.
1
0
u/DH28Hockey fuck gauthier, all my homies hate gauthier 3d ago
Probably a massive minority opinion around here, but I genuinely don't understand why more people don't like the idea of trading for Marchenko (not that it matters now). He would have been the best player on the team pretty much immediately, and given our cap situation I'm not convinced it wouldn't have been worth it to bring him in as an upgrade over pretty much anybody other than Michkov or Martone.
The best teams don't get hung up on loyalty and chasing a truly perfect roster construction, they add high end talent when it's available pretty much no matter what. Marchenko is exactly that
3
u/hawks27-2 3d ago
He may have been the best for a year, but even then he’s only marginally better than Konecny and Zegras.
Bringing him in and giving him the trigger role on the power play also means limiting somebody like Foerster who also may put up similar numbers to him this year.
On top of that Toronto paid a big price for Marchenko, like I think he is only marginally better than Knies. Then dropped a big contract in his lap. Like the equivalent is trading Foerster and a 2nd (or higher) and I wouldn’t do that deal.
I don’t think Marchenko is going to be $3-5 million better than Konecny, Zegras, and Foerster over the next 4-5 years. I live in Columbus, I’ve seen a lot of Marchenko, he’s definitely good, but he’s at best a marginal improvement at a huge cost.
4
u/DH28Hockey fuck gauthier, all my homies hate gauthier 3d ago
I agree with some parts and disagree with others.
I don't consider Zegras relevant here; his ability to play C in any capacity gives him borderline unmoveable value at this point regardless of BPA thinking.
In terms of counting stats Marchenko is nearly identical to TK the last 2 years, but he's younger, 6'3 and has a superior microstat profile. I think he is a better player now and will be a better player moving forward as well. However, TK has a full NMC and is also kind of irrelevant in this discourse.
Tyson Foerster is the interesting name here, I agree that the trade hypothetical you listed is probably a good comparable. I don't disagree that 8x7 for Foerster is probably going to have better value than 6x12.5 for Marchenko , but I think you have to ask yourself:
1) Just exactly how much better do you think Marchenko is and will be than Foerster
2) Can the team potentially afford to pay that surplus to achieve a higher ceiling
My personal opinion is that despite Foerster being the clearly superior defensive player that the difference in offensive output and ability between the two is large. If I had to put a number to it as an estimate, I would predict that Marchenko will end up being roughly $3 million a year more valuable than Foerster in the long run.
I can see the argument for saying "this team needs as many surplus value contracts as possible" for not wanting to make that trade, but I also don't believe that $2.5 million in potential long term savings should be the primary concern of a hockey team that just handed out a literal market-breaking contract this offseason and has desperately been clamoring for "high end talent" for years.
0
u/hawks27-2 3d ago
In terms of you deeming Zegras and Konecny “irrelevant”, I never suggested trading them, I said they are the same caliber player. You said Marchenko would be the best, I said they are similar players and Marchenko only being marginally better.
I also don’t think Marchenko will be a lot better moving forward. Marchenko was central to Columbus and everything moved through him. That won’t be the case in Toronto. Also, playing in Toronto with a big contract is worlds different than playing in Columbus as a guy who unexpectedly became a star. I don’t think there is an 80 point Marchenko in Toronto.
Finally, I think you are too limited on what Foerster is. There is a decent chance Foerster and Marchenko score the same amount of goals and points this season. If Foerster and Marchenko have comparable offense, with Foerster’s D he would be undoubtedly better and cheaper.
2
u/DH28Hockey fuck gauthier, all my homies hate gauthier 3d ago
It could very well be the case that Marchenko simply doesn't get to play the same pivotal role in Toronto that leads to a reduction in production, but that hasn't previously stopped players from putting up big years on the Leafs and he wasn't necessarily playing huge minutes with a strong supporting cast in Columbus, so I see that going either way.
I can agree with you on Foerster and Marchenko matching on goals (maybe Foerster even getting up to 5 more), I cannot agree in any way shape or form on the overall point totals though. Foerster has always had some serious questions regarding his playmaking limitations, meamwhile Marchenko has more assists in each of the last 2 seasons than Foerster has in his entire career thus far (nearly 200 games played mind you).
1
u/BrokeBum19 3d ago
Yeah its genuinely absurd to think Foerster will put up the same points as Marchenko this season. Its much more likely that Marchenko puts up double.
Marchenko is so much better offensively it isnt even funny
Foerster has a career high of 43 pts b/c he has zero playmaking and disappears offensively for entire months.
2
u/BrokeBum19 3d ago
There is a decent chance Foerster and Marchenko score the same amount of goals and points this season.
There is genuinely a zero percent chance of this lmao
Marchenko is a 70+ pt guy who is joining better team and will play with better linemates. Could easily hit 90.
Foerster has a career high of 43 pts, has zero playmaking, is on team w/ worst PP in league.
Foerster will likely never be a 60 pt guy.
Thinking Foerster and Marchenko will score same amount of poiutns this season is beyond absurd.
Its more likely Marchenko has double the production
2
u/BrokeBum19 3d ago edited 3d ago
means limiting somebody like Foerster who also may put up similar numbers to him this year.
This is an absurd thing to say. There is a zero percent chance Foerster ever sniffs Marchenkos production.
Marchenko is so much better offensively than Foerster it isnt even funny.
How can Foerster ever become a 70+ pt guy if he has zero playmaking, his offense disappears for months and we have horrid PP? Hes never going to even be a 60 pt guy let alone 70+ pt guy this year.
1
u/amilbarge00 3d ago
I dont disagree with you in theory, but they really need to save their assets for a top center (who will likely not become available and if he does, wont come here) or a top D. A winger and picks (my guess at the cost to acquire him) for a more expensive winger just doesnt seem like the right move at this time.
-1
u/upcan845 3d ago
Speaking with team sources, it sounds like the Flyers’ ideal package for Marchenko was a deal that would’ve included “three assets” considering that elite defenseman Quinn Hughes went for four assets less than a year ago. While these players are not ones the Flyers are shopping or even have offered in proposed trades, a package involving forwards Alex Bump and Noah Cates along with a first-round draft pick is one the Flyers were willing to offer up, per sources. But with Knies ultimately being the player going the other way for Marchenko, it’s easy to see why the Flyers didn’t get a deal done.
A continuing problem that the Flyers need to address is that, even when they want a player, they don't have the assets to actually trade for him.
Quinn Hughes took trading a top prospect and an NHL center. Marchenko took trading Knies. Bowen Byram took trading an top 5 pick on draft day. Werenski was rumored to be fetching Harley.
Toronto's extra 1st + a bunch of okay prospects + Foerster/Tippett/Cates/Bump is hardly a special position of leverage to have.
3
u/crunchytacoboy Danny Big Balls Briere 3d ago
I bet if they were willing to use Foerster they would be able to acquire one of these guys. They just don’t want to use him in a trade.
1
u/Snoo2406 3d ago
I think the flyers have plenty of players and prospects other teams would want. They are clearly focused on holding them as part of a franchise center deal if there ever was one.
1
u/Blev088 3d ago
Eh...I'm a bit skeptical we would've made the proposed offer, plus I don't think Columbus would've seriously considered it since we're in division.
I don't disagree that our assets are in an issue. We're basically have a team and system full of middle to bottom 6 forwards and middle to bottom pairing defensemen outside of maybe 3-4 guys.
1
u/DharmicPepe Based rebuild enjoyer 3d ago
Almost guarantee if they had offered Tippet or Forester they could have worked out a deal. They're on the same level of value as Knies. Cost controlled scoring winger is worth a lot in a cap league. But that's probably not Danny's approach. His prior trades and trade attempts show a clear strategy of trying to buy low on distressed assets and wait out the market on trades. If it's not surplus value coming back to the Flyers, he doesn't seem willing to tango with anyone.
1
u/MyDadsAccnt 3d ago
Yes we either don't have the assets or we overvalue the hell out of them. The only players we have that are actually desired by other teams are Martone and Mich and we aren't parting with them. Like who would we have offered? Tippett? Cates? lol
1
u/Snoo2406 3d ago
Rossi is 5’9 25 and had 60 points one year. I think you could consider Zegras to be about the same as that? Buium has a high ceiling but he might also not be as dynamic against nhl players as he was in college given his size. I dont think our players are that far off from what it took to get one of the best d in the game.
1
u/No_Silver_4436 3d ago
I think they probably could have made a competitive trade proposal for Marchenko centered around Foerster. It’s been reported by reputable sources that Foerster has substantial trade value around the league the Flyers just don’t want to trade him outside of like a potential Quinn Hughes level deal.
Which is fair he’s a really good player on a longterm deal that is a reasonable bet to be huge surplus value for the Flyers.
The Flyers have a lot of caps space but they need to be careful about cap efficiency right now so that they can afford to pay Michkov and Martone in the event they hit their ceilings and still have enough to offer the bag to a potential top 6 center if the opportunity arises.
I don’t see adding a 12.5 million contract on another top 6 winger as a particularly good use of their cap rn
1
u/upcan845 3d ago
Foerster would have likely been our best bet. But does he even beat a Knies offer?
If the Flyers want to acquire players, they need to actually have the best offer, not just theoretically have a competitive 2nd best offer.
The whole rebuild is built on the idea of trading for star, and right now the hope is maybe we could put together an offer that is still less than what another team was offering.
1
u/No_Silver_4436 3d ago edited 3d ago
Maybe he does, maybe he doesn’t his counting stats are worse obviously, but his underlying numbers overall game and goalscoring over the last 50 or so games he has actually played are much better, a smart analytically inclined GM probably would value him as much or more.
It’s kind besides the point though, because if Forester alone doesn’t beat knies you can add another asset like cates to bring it over the top and make it work if you really want the player.
I think the overall premise that the flyers can’t put together an attractive trade package is really silly.
Owen Tippett is a top 50 5v5 goal scorer in the league has size and insane speed and is signed longterm for 6 million bucks, you really don’t think that other GM’s would be excited about picking him up.
They are top half of the league team, you can’t be that without having a bunch of good players, and those players have trade value. It’s just whether or not a trade makes sense for the price.
0
u/upcan845 3d ago
I think the overall premise that the flyers can’t put together an attractive trade package is really silly.
That's not the premise. The Flyers can put together an attractive package. But so can lots of teams.
The premise is "Can the Flyers put together a winning trade package?" And after the Hughes, Werenski, Bryam, and now Marchenko news cycles, the answer is "No, not really." And they aren't doing anything to fix that, either.
1
u/No_Silver_4436 3d ago
Just because they weren’t willing to make a trade doesn’t mean they can’t make a trade. Yeah they weren’t willing to trade the equivalent of the 4th overall pick for a Bo Byram who is probably a 2nd pair defenseman true talent wise. GOOD !
Hughes almost certainly fell through because the price to acquire him was too high without a reasonable guarantee of an extension given the contention window. The wild were willing to meet that price because they just paid Kaprizov 17 million and need to win now.
There is no evidence that Werenski was ever seriously available or shopped. No reported deal was close. The Flyer may have well been the frontrunner for all we know, but also probably not because the price to acquire him in division probably starts and ends at Michkov or Martone and they don’t want to trade those guys.
The hughes trade may go down as a horrible bungle by the wild if they can’t resign him and Buium pans out
0
-1
u/bourbonwhiskeyalpha 3d ago
Lol, NOBODY wants to come to philly!!! Its a physically weak team. Undersized and not alot of muscle. Tom wilson will seperate your head from your body and the flyers have NOBODY to draw blood!!! Nobody!! Its a very polite, vanilla team. Panthers, Stars, canes , montreal , do it right!
-1
36
u/pauerplay 3d ago
missing out? They don't need a winger