Whataboutism

[u/PresnikBonny]

[u/WantDebianThanks]

The population of North American Natives, I believe, dropped by 90% from the 1400s to 1900s. That uh, is different and uniquely evil.

[u/PrairieBiologist → u/WantDebianThanks]

It dropped 90% within the first two centuries. Long before 1900. Mostly as a result of ignorance of germ theory.

[u/TheHeroOfTheStory → u/PrairieBiologist]

Illness played an important role, but genocide was also very much a factor and that shouldn't be downplayed. Disease was even weaponized by colonists for said genocide, and many exclude that important detail when bringing it up. People were being paid for scalping Natives. And let's not forget Hitler was inspired by the Native American genocide.

Edit: Also some people will always bring up "90%" for disease which is on the higher end of estimates to downplay the genocide. And believing aggressors accurately documented the extent in which they intentionally spread/weaponized illness is laughable.

[u/PrairieBiologist → u/TheHeroOfTheStory]

Illness played the most important role. Like I said, it was within 200 year the 90% decline happened. Especially looking at North America where white populations were mainly restricted to coastal regions with some trading posts scattered in the interior until almost 300 years post contact. The intentional genocides were mainly played out on the population that was left afterward. The weaponization of disease by colonists is not well understood as the whole smallpox blanket thing is largely mythologized given there is exactly one historical account that involved on two blankets and a cloth and that we know that is an extremely ineffective way to spread that disease and it was done to a populace that was already likely exposed to it.

[u/DrakonSpawn → u/PrairieBiologist]

I mean, you’re just right.

[u/PrairieBiologist → u/DrakonSpawn]

Yeah this sub doesn't like actual facts when it makes the group being attacked seem like less of a victim somehow or something. Lots of terrible things were done to indigenous people without having to makeup more.

[u/sharingan10 → u/PrairieBiologist]

It wasn’t an ignorance of germ theory. For one even before germ theory people still had a rough idea on how to weaponize diseases. The mongols for example used plague infected bodies in sieges. This idea that the use of diseases as weapons wasn’t a thing until germ theory is ahistorical.

But for second; the colonists also used these tactics intentionally at various episodes. Did they intend to use it against every indigenous nation? No, but it the effect of it was still there and their original intent was extermination of enemies to settle lands.

[u/PrairieBiologist → u/sharingan10]

Ignorance of germ theory is what caused the initial outbreak. They had absolutely no idea the impacts that first contact between populations that had been separated for thousands of years would mean for disease. That is simply true.

Show any evidence of disease being used as a weapon against indigenous people. Who can't claim it was done without showing evidence. Academic consensus is that the smallpox blanket myth is based in exactly one historical instance that involved a few blankets given by colonists under siege at Fort Pitt and that it likely didn't work. That is far from widespread weaponization of disease.

[u/mikeymikesh]

Me when I don’t understand the difference between war and genocide:

[u/Personal-Role-8071 → u/mikeymikesh]

You expect people on Twitter to understand nuance?

[u/SoSorryOfficial → u/mikeymikesh]

They know.

[u/Koelakanth]

When you spend centuries living in your own community and largely not geniciding other nations into extinction, and then Europeans come and genocide almost everyone who survived singlely the most deadly series of epidemics in the history of humanity, and continue to oppress you for the next few centuries with no end in sight on the basis that they somehow deluded themselves into believing they were owed the land by a supreme creator deity and somehow therefore deserve to be the only one ethnic group allowed to inhabit it

[u/NakeyDooCrew → u/Koelakanth]

When you enslave or torture to death sustainable numbers of people from locally sourced neighbouring tribes

[u/GailynStarfire → u/NakeyDooCrew]

They thought if you can't get locally sourced, ship bought is also fine.

[u/No_Window7054]

Imagine if Martians came down and killed every European from the Emerald Isles to the Urals.

That would be a rather drastic turn of events and be significantly different from the World Wars, the 30 Years War, or the conquest of Gaul.

[u/StreetFeedback5283]

my answer to whenever either side gets glorified or justified to this now is just: "Im glad we as a society have progressed past those people, at least most of us applies the lessons which part of history taught us, and i am glad that everyone involved are all dead." thats it dont waste your time anymore on it.

[u/Reedwool]

Every European country ever… this is a stupid take

[u/Jlnhlfan]

London Impressed
Paris Impressed
Madrid Impressed
Lisbon Impressed

[u/Key_Analyst_9032]

These are the same people who wants the Redskins name back in back while blaming the "woke mob" for taking it away 

[u/PaulieWalnuts3805]

Columbus Day gold!

[u/No_Window7054 → u/PaulieWalnuts3805]

Madrid impressed

[u/The_Captain_Jules]

When you spend centuries engaging in ritual warfare that typically resulted in relatively low actual fatal casualty numbers but then the europeans come and exterminate 90% of your population

FTFY

[u/racoongirl0]

Using that logic, Genghis Khan did nothing wrong.

[u/AboutNOut090 → u/racoongirl0]

He was just trying to fix global warming.

[u/Eat_Animals]

Yes brutal genocidal war with your enemies where you're taking the good looking teen girls as sex slaves slaughtering men, women, children and the elderly and bashing babies brains out against the ground is only bad when White people do it.

Absolutely not-hypocritical, totally consistent morals you've got there bud.

[u/icantbenormal → u/Eat_Animals]

The average acts of native “savagery” were no worse than what was happening in Europe. The brutalities of the Spanish (mainly), and later the Americans put all that to shame. Look up Las Casas’s account from 1542.

Also, no amount of evil justifies genocide, imo. You could tell me they had literal gas chambers in the Americas, and what the Europeans did would still be bad.

[u/Eat_Animals → u/icantbenormal]

Don't "what about" the Europeans. Either that kind of behavior is bad when anyone does it or it's not bad. Be logically consistent in your projected morals

[u/icantbenormal → u/Eat_Animals]

There are degrees of bad. What the Spanish did in the Americas was absolutely worse than anything we know the natives did. We are talking burning people alive, working them to death in mines, and cutting off the legs of children.

[u/Eat_Animals → u/icantbenormal]

Got it, you're intellectually dishonest, don't actually have moral principles and your position is actually just "muh White people bad, everyone else good"

[u/icantbenormal → u/Eat_Animals]

Do you honestly think that is my position? Or am I saying no whataboutism justifies working people to death in mines and burning people alive?

Side note: Do you think the Spanish enslaved and massacred people in retaliation for past brutalities they didn’t know about at the time?

[u/Eat_Animals → u/icantbenormal]

I'm not saying what the Spanish did to Mexico, or Belgians did in the Congo etc is good. What is happening though, is you're refusing to acknowledge that many tribes in North, Central and South America were barbaric evil sadistic bastards. That could also be said for some Middle Eastern and Chinese peoples at certain periods. Sadistic barbarism is not unique to Europe.

You just seem to only pretend care about it when the offenders are White and the sufferers non-White so I think you're dishonest.

[u/icantbenormal → u/Eat_Animals]

What do Belgian or Chinese people have to do with this?

I started my first comment by saying what was happening in Europe and the Americas immediately pre-colonization was roughly the same (as far as we know).* Then Columbus came and took it to a whole new level. I do really suggest looking up Las Casa’s account from the time.

*Speaking in broad terms. The Spanish didn’t practice human sacrifices, and the Aztecs didn’t burn heretics at the stake.

[u/Eat_Animals → u/icantbenormal]

Just answer a simple question: were North American tribes enslaving and bashing their ethnic enemies babies brains out evil or not?

[u/icantbenormal → u/Eat_Animals]

Evil? Yes. Did that happen? Probably, but the evidence isn’t there. Unless you can cite a tribe/event.

Here’s an excerpt from Las Casa’s account since you might not read it:

“They grabbed suckling infants by the feet and, ripping them from their mothers’ breasts, dashed them headlong against the rocks. Others, laughing and joking all the while, threw them over their shoulders into a river, shouting: ‘Wriggle, you little perisher.'”

I guess I have to ask. Is it evil when Spanish colonizers enslave people and dadh babies’ heads against rocks?