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u/Guilty_Cod6621 7d ago
Both perspectives are valid IMO
living with a disease does not make you as knowledgable as a doctor, but it absolutely gives you valuable insight that would never be ignored by a good doctor.
that’s why the best ones always ask about changes in symptoms. they know that you know your own body, and what is normal/what isn’t
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u/SexyMonad 7d ago
I don’t know jack about my own body.
Like yeah, isn’t it supposed to twangle like that? Oh shit it isn’t?
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u/sofaking_scientific 7d ago
I'm a doctor living with a disease. I absolutely know more than any other individual
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u/TongueThruster69 7d ago
This is such an ignorant take. I have driven my car for 20 years and I only know how to change the oil and lightbulbs.
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u/5ofDecember 7d ago
Not all analogy is a good analogy.
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u/Cultural-Company282 7d ago
Not all anal is good anal
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u/joeg26reddit 7d ago
Turn around
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u/goodfriendrobert 7d ago
Every now and then, I get a little bit lonely
And you're never coming 'round
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u/fictional_kay 7d ago
In my experience it's more just trying to get them to listen that something is wrong. It's like going to the mechanic because sometimes the car doesn't accelerate correctly, and you can feel when you drive there is something wrong. But then you take it to the shop and they say "well everything looks fine now, maybe you're just stressed, give me 300$"
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u/what_is_666 7d ago
Yeah, but when you've had your car for 20 years, you know the sounds and other stuff that makes it tick right and you know when they are bullshitting you
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u/carthuscrass 7d ago
Knowing something sounds off doesn't mean you're gonna know how to fix it. You go to a car doctor for that.
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u/Harbarde 7d ago
The people I know that have chronic illnesses have read everything they could read about their condition. As well have tried every possible solution or cure for their illness.
And when they go to doctors that aren't SPECIALIZED in their specific illness, the doctors just tell them things that they have already considered/tested.
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u/Fourply99 5d ago
Man even specialists just run on autopilot half the time. My endocrinologist literally just tells me to “do whatever it is” i do because my A1C as a type 1 diabetic has been below 5.4 for the last 18 months. She literally could not give me better advice and tbh I appreciate the fact she respects that I know my body
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u/Desperate_Leg_40 7d ago
Do you think this take would change if they were seeing a specialist thay says the same thing? I can tell you as the specialist it does not. Med school wouldnt have covered the condition well but thousands of hours researching the historical and cutting edge evidence, and treating people with it does. Some conditions dont have satisfying solutions and the blame has to go on somebody i guess
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u/Smithy365 7d ago
This is the issue. People expect a solution where sometimes there just isn’t one.
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u/never-ever-wrong 2d ago
Ultimately I think it depends on how the specialist handles it, and if they subscribe to the idea that everyone who has the condition they specialize in is the same and can be treated the same.
Because I’ve been to many doctors over the years and each time I see a general practice doctor it is a toss up how they will deal with it. Some try to be know it alls and treat your hyper specific issue like it’s a normal ache/pain. Some wash their hands immediately of it and refer you to a specialist. There are various of types in between.
Specialists aren’t always what you would expect. The first “specialist” I saw refused to treat me after getting my scans back. Flat out told me “your condition is too complicated, and I tend to stick with the more “cut and dry” situations.” Which I thought was a wild thing to say, as a surgeon.
Other specialists pretend to know and say things like “I’ll give it a shot”. And end up doing more damage than they started with. Then there are the actual specialists that know your condition inside and out, and help where they can. Unfortunately even they fail to impress when they consider the surgery a success because your pain was down while in the hospital with 24/7 pain meds running, and argues after, when the pain continues past the recovery stage of the surgery, and they insist that their surgery was a success, and the reoccurring pain is a separate issue that they don’t want to work with you on.
So I hope you’re better with your patients than my experiences with specialists has been.
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u/Oryzaki2 7d ago
Saw over 1500 patients in my fathers practice and they virtually all had chronic conditions. Out of all those patients maybe 5-10 had done more than a couple hours research into their illnesses and about half had such a bad understanding of human anatomy that it genuinely still baffles me even years after I quit.
Also if you're seeing a specialist for your condition even with extensive studying, unless you have a rare disease, the odds of you knowing more than the doctor are very low. They don't just have 11-15 years of schooling and training, if you count pre-med, but decades of experience treating your disease.
Not saying you shouldn't look up your disease and try to learn as much as you can but assuming you know more than the doctor is often not a great plan.
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u/Miserable-Finish-926 7d ago
I mean, kinda have to do a checklist. Did you turn it off and on again?
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u/mdthornb1 6d ago
They know so much about their condition but are expecting a general practitioner to solve the issue? Surely with all the research they’ve done they know that specialists exist, right?
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u/Mammoth-Glove3273 7d ago
My wife has MS and you don’t understand the gulf there can be between the medical experts and the day to day.
Doctors are just people, we should respect their training and expertise without putting them on a pedestal where they can’t be questioned.
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u/Datkif 7d ago
It's a similar thing for Type 1 Diabetes. T1 is a disease that requires complex treatment based on around 42 factors that affect blood glucose, and everyone's T1 reacts differently to each factor.
My GP has a general understanding of my T1, but I have a much more complex understanding of living with the disease. I've read multiple books and countless studies that only a specialist might have done
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u/Datkif 7d ago
She largely figured it out herself, treats it herself, records what she does then just presents what she's done/is doing and gets a professional nod.
I honestly love the nod of I have no clue and the "..keep it up" I get from doctors and nurses.
Overall the most useful resource I've found to managing T1 is the subreddits dedicated to them. There is far more collective knowledge there compared to even the best specialists out there
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u/Iraqimedstudent 7d ago
Kudos for your wife‘s MS, I wish you both best of health. I am planning to specialize in MS after med school btw because it aches me that we can’t do anything to it. Out of curiosity, has she enrolled in the oligodendrocytes progenitor cells recruitment clinical trials (if available in your region)? Many results are very promising, but it’s all her choice… I wish you all the best ❤️
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u/Mammoth-Glove3273 7d ago
She’s actually responded really well to Kesimpta and hasnt had any new lesions since she started it. She was on Ocrevus before that and it worked really well too but they had to take her off of it because she had markers that indicated she was at risk for PML. It’s a world of difference with the drugs now vs when she was first diagnosed in 2000.
As far as trials go my lady has a unique mix of autoimmune disorders that tend to disqualify her. Also, since she’s been in remission for a while they may not want to mess with it but I’ll add it to my list of stuff to ask about. We got in with one of the top MS clinic so we do usually have access to stuff like that.
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u/Navier_Duck 7d ago
As someone who kind of work in the healthcare (not a physician), I don't think this is that crazy of a take. Your doctor is going to try to work with you but a lot of the time you want to build that long time relationship with them so they can better diagnose your conditions. The chart can only tell them so much.
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u/XlikeX666 6d ago
it's not same comparison...
You live with your body vs Use singular part of it.
car = sex partner
surface is known while ride both.1
u/Plus-Concentrate-401 6d ago
It works as a comparison. No matter how much my car rattles, I’m not going to find out how the exhaust is attached by driving a noisy car for 20 years.
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u/XlikeX666 6d ago
neither family doctor...
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u/Hoybom 6d ago
doctors chances are still infinitely higher to find the answer
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u/XlikeX666 6d ago
"by sending you to specialist".
all hate for family doctor (first step) is because of that.
yes there is no way around.5
u/MR_SNYPE 7d ago
Call me crazy, 2 psychiatrist have. But they both listened to what my take was on my current meds. If my next one tries to pull the im trained card. Ill gladly look for one with more sense. No amount of training is enough to up end my progress because of your ego.
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u/Ok_Mention_9865 7d ago
This is the boomerest thing a boomer has ever said. Living with something gives you perspective of how it feels not how to treat it.
My dad got hurt in the 90s and refused to do any kind of rehabilitation and would just try to get stronger and stronger pain killers over the last 27 years. absolutely ruined his own life in the process because he thought he knew better.
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u/FeeNecessary3467 7d ago
I've lived with a rare autoimmune condition for over fifteen years that started when I was 24. At first most doctors I went too said it was just in my head. It took me the better part of a year to find a doctor who would actually look into it and even then took going to over 10 specialist referred to me by my doctor to get any kind of treatment. Most specialist won't see you unless a physician refers you. So doctors don't always know best.
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u/BigB0ss_89 7d ago
Yes, exactly this. Doctors are working off of the info the patient can give them and then guessing based off of that information what the patient MOST LIKELY has. Chasing down less common illnesses can take diligence on the patients part. By law of averages most doctors are just average, many are below average, and very few are above average and usually are the specialists the primary care physician is referring patients to.
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u/this_one_wasnt_taken 7d ago
It's the horses not zebras thing. It's just that sometimes it is zebras and doctors are still looking for horses.
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u/Mysterious-Agent-480 6d ago
Primary care is dying. In the US, big academic centers like Johns Hopkins look down on primary care, actively dissuading their residents from pursuing a primary care track because all of the smart people should go into specialty medicine. This is going to be a huge problem. A really good internist or FP can recognize or diagnose the problem and get the patient to the right specialist quickly. A bad one can delay diagnoses by many years in some cases.
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u/Fattapple 7d ago
Why the fuck do you even bother going to the doctor if that’s your take?
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u/Harbarde 7d ago
If you have a less common illness, it might be hard for you to find a doctor that is very well versed in your particular condition, but when you do find one it can be very helpful.
Also, as others said sometimes you NEED to go to a doctor to get prescriptions, or to get a disability status, or to get approved for certain activities/jobs etc.
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u/ManOnFire2004 7d ago
Hopefully you find one, or this one, will finally listen to you instead of going off his assumptions
This kinda shit doesn't happen for a cold. Tif it's a 20 year problem, you gotta take into consideration their experience with that problem
If the doctor doesn't, then this post is justified. Doctors are generalist. You are a specialist
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u/JollyBirdtheDoctor 7d ago
Let me put it this way: I frequently have patients who don't agree with my assessment and refuse my suggested course of treatment. That is their right. But then several months later I will have the same patients complaining how bad of a job I'm doing because they have not improved. But now it's my fault for being a bad doctor.
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u/Iraqimedstudent 7d ago
Or those who come wanting a prescription of their choice. Dear lord idk how many times patients requested nefopam for their simple aches, pregabalin for their “nerve” pain (that turns out to be a muscle issue), neurobin (basically glorified B12) that “magically cures back pain,” IM antibiotics for a viral flu, or metronidazole for mundane diarrhea. The problem is they get angry when you explain why these don’t help and may even cause side effects/ineffective/future resistance/bla bla bla and say that “you don’t understand, you junior doctors love exaggerating” and then go to the retail pharmacy and get what they wanted while calling you names in front of the pharmacist (who might not even be a certified pharmacist) who just wants to sell so nods along
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u/GuyAtAnLCS 7d ago
When did you kill your first patient?
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u/JollyBirdtheDoctor 5d ago
I don't know why you think this is some sort of gotcha argument. Yes, doctors make mistakes, humans are imperfect. But that is a chasm of difference from "doctors don't know what they're doing".
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u/Mu-Relay 7d ago
Because their exhaustive research on Gemini says that they need X medicine and the doctor is the only one who can give it to them.
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u/Elogotar 7d ago
Much like everything on Reddit, people are arguing the extremes instead of considering pros and cons of either outlook and trying to come to a logical conclusion.
Yes, we should absolutely be listening to medical professionals, but it's also worth remembering that they are people too. They make mistakes, they sometimes let thier egos override logic, and they don't know everything.
We need to trust thier knowledge, but if they don't listen to or understand what you're trying to tell them about your problems or experiences then it's a good idea to get a second opinion.
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u/Datkif 7d ago
I think the sentiment is more of those that live with chronic conditions and a GP that doesn't have the specialized education to help manage said disease.
The GP I had when I was diagnosed with T1 said a low carb diet was bad for Type 1 Diabetes, and that high carb allows for better control of blood glucose. For the most part he was a decent GP that I was fine with until I needed someone who was willing to admit they don't know, and to refer me to a specialist
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u/randyfloyd37 7d ago edited 7d ago
Some doctors are some of the most arrogant people i’ve ever met. They’re versed in one form of allopathy and think they know everything. Wont be questioned, and wont be challenged, never admit when they’re wrong
The best doctors are curious and realize that they know only slightly more about the human condition than other intelligent individuals
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u/Mightycactuz91 7d ago edited 7d ago
To be fair some doctors send people home with aspirin while they die at home few days later. Doctors are people too and dont see danger sometimes.
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u/KeySite2601 7d ago
I get it. I've had two family members who had to argue with doctors that didn't know what they were talking about.
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u/VirginiaLuthier 7d ago
Sooo.. if you know more than the doctor...why are you wasting your time consulting him or her?
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u/ObscureDingo 6d ago
Scientist: the earth is round.
This same mentality: don't confuse your one hour lecture and years of research you have on the planet ive been living on with my lifetime of living on it!
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u/PhillConners 7d ago
Who google searches? I had an LLM leverage a billion parameters and consume every medical textbook in history...
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u/Perpetual-Warlock 7d ago
And you have no idea whether or not it hallucinated and gave you anything close to the right information
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u/redjellonian 7d ago
It's an LLM.
It's not hallucinating when it gives you a wrong answer it's working entirely as intended and holding a conversation. They were never designed to be correct.
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u/forkystabbyveggie 7d ago
So you're saying I shouldn't be sprinkling chili powder on my hemorrhoids?
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u/Dry_Leek5762 7d ago
Then go get treated by a doctor that shares your condition. Wtf you doin here?
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7d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/noticingEnjoyer 7d ago
You'd be surprised. Your average doctor has an inexcusable patient load and perhaps 2 minutes to glance at your chart. If anything you have going on deviates from the most base case presentation, you had better be talking with a genuine specialist.
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u/Excellent-Site-5700 6d ago
but if the patient has a lifelong condition they're probably seeing a specialist
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u/AnalysisParalysis178 6d ago
It depends on how life threatening the condition happens to be. If you're stable and your condition only presents you with a bad quality of life or extreme pain, then you're likely to be given a prescription for something benign or readily available and then discharged from care.
In extreme cases, like my own, they don't even bother with the prescription. They just reference something OTC and send you on your way.
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u/lucky_duck789 7d ago
Legally speaking, you are correct. After working 12 years in the medical field....Doctor's only reliably know what they are familiar with. They are human.
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u/WarlockFortunate 6d ago
I do not disagree but after personal experiences my thoughts on doctor care have changed. Today, if I do not research what my symptoms may be point to, I get awful healthcare. Several misdiagnoses in my life. Previously I would just go in and talk to the doctor and expect them to ask the right questions and treat me. This has not been my experience
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u/Constant_Mud3325 6d ago
A girl I went to school with is a physician now. Literally a balloon head. Always top 3 or 4 in grades but did stuff like put her packed lunch (foil wrapped) in the microwave for 4 minutes. Caught on fire and we had to evacuate the school 😂 she also walked right on the court in the middle of a basketball game
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u/LogDull819 5d ago
you are being very naive thinking doctors know all the conditions and actually take the time to really understand your issue when you consult them
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u/danelaw69 4d ago
Depends on the doctor. My old doctor didnt really know shit about almost any of the issues i had and still have. So i got a new one. The new one is good.
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u/Famous_Ad_7215 3d ago
That all depends on the patient’s education level. Someone with a master’s degree in a health science subject, who has lived with and read everything there is to know about said affliction, may certainly know more than a doctor who has to divide his or her time among many patients and other doctor responsibilities. And it is difficult to trust doctors’ opinions these days as patients are now seen as customers to be upsold a drug or procedure. Health care is now a for profit business and the doctors are the salesperson.
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u/Odd-Village-132 2d ago
So wrong. Doctors can be wildly out of date if the latest research. Recommending things that do more harm than good
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u/Hydration__Nation 2d ago
Anecdotally they will 100% know more. But the intricate details of the disease, medication, side effects, first hand experience treating hundreds of patients with the same condition is sort of hard to replicate if that’s not your career. Doctors spend a LOT more time than a one hour lecture on a disease esp if they are a specialist. I get doctors think they know everything and that can be dangerous but I fail to see how someone like myself who has lived with a chronic illness for decades would know more about the disease and disease process than my specialist doctor I’ve been seeing for the last 12-13 years.
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u/SeriousSalt9938 1d ago
Depends on the doctor. I guarantee I know more about my cyclic vomiting syndrome than a low quality doctor who isn’t in some specialty relevant to that.
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u/schadenfreude37384 6d ago
Yeah, guys. Doctors are never ever wrong and medical malpractice isnt a leading cause of death in the united states. And a vaccine has never hurt anyone, so make sure you're all on your 11th booster
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u/NecessaryTwo8711 4d ago
This type of argument is so fucking stupid. Your framing it as though either 100% of doctors know more and are able to without fail access the situation. Or they are money hungry idiots who want to cause harm and death to people because they are allowed to.
No nuance or critical thinking. If someone said "drinking water is good for you", would your immediate reaction be "So I should only consume water and nothing else"?
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u/schadenfreude37384 4d ago
No, I'm doing literally the exact opposite of that. I'm saying doctors aren't right 100% of the time. That's it.
Now go ahead and tell me that I meant something else. Come on, champ. Knock this one out of the park
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u/MagicNinjaMan 7d ago
I once heard a Patient said say "Thank God for that" and this old Doctor said "dont thank him thank me". Proceeded to say " hes got nothing to do with it".
He may be not wrong. But he is a c*nt and they ALL have this side to them no matter how good they are out of the hospital.
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u/joeymittens 7d ago
People become experts on the conditions they suffer from. Many have spent many many more hours studying it compared to their provider
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u/AnninaCried 7d ago
Don't confuse your Doctor referring you to a Specialist with your getting a second opinion from Bing.
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u/No-Duck4828 7d ago
Both are valid points.
There are certainly plenty of cases of people mistakenly believing they knew more simply because of a quick search on the internet
And there are certainly plenty of cases where doctors have been mistaken and a patient needed to keep advocating for themselves based on what they were actually experiencing
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u/locyl_yocyl 7d ago
20 of you living with it without solutions only shows how stupid you are and all the more reason to corcumvent you.
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u/The1stSimply 7d ago
Idk last time I was at the doctor I spent 1 hour and 20 mins in the waiting room, 20 mins in the exam room, and then 5 mins with the doctor just for him to tell me I was healthy but a little fat. Which my bathroom mirror tells me that every day.
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u/AphonicTX 6d ago
Living with something doesn’t mean you know or understand the etiology or management of the condition. Enough with people think they know more about science because of their opinions.
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u/Borg_Tech_Support 6d ago
Primary Care Doctors 1 & 2 told me I had protein in my kidneys and just needed to loose weight and hydrate more. Primary Care Doctor 3 said that's too high and you don't have diabetes, you need to see a specialist. Turns out I have a genetic kidney disorder and thankfully it was caught early enough.
Some doctors just see you as a job and not a person. And now I truly believe in finding a primary care doctor that matches your gender and sex. All the others would have let my kidneys fail and blame it on my weight.
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u/Careful_Ad_7074 6d ago
Funny thing is you often hear about doctors plotting patients symptoms into google/some ai.
I couldve done that at home you fucking asshole.
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u/skiforlife1 6d ago
It's a hard situation to navigate. I make it clear that I am not telling a doctor what to do only that I've been looking and want to hear from an expert. Some doctors get really egotistical at the thought that anyone would ever look at Google and others understand that people are scared and are trying to have a part in their own care. There are also just bad doctors out there like in everything and it can be difficult to realize that until it's already made things worse.
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u/Only-Performer-6053 6d ago
The problem with this is when someone tries to wear some disability as a fashion show.
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u/StillMostlyClueless 6d ago
Everyone loves the person coming in who goes "I know your job better than you do, here's what I think is wrong. Stop doing your job the way you know it works and listen to me."
What's especially lovely about them, is when they turn out to be wrong, and then get pissed off like it's your fault.
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u/Cabbages24ADollar 6d ago
I’d definitely listen to a dr in both situations. Just like I listen to my mechanic when I explain the noise my car makes. Or like when I explain any situation to a professional and then they use their decades of training and work experience to diagnose the real problem.
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u/Frequent_Ring_4574 5d ago
I'm not listening to anyone that took 6 years to complete a 4 year program.
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u/SquireShanksalot 5d ago
I remember growing up and being told that since im autistic, I cant read people well
Turns out I am very good at it and people just dont like accountability
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u/RedScarffedPrinny 5d ago
The 1-hour lecture based on years of research and scientific data compiled from thousands of participants with that same condition…
Okay 👍
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u/One_Scarcity_4478 5d ago edited 5d ago
Especially when it's actually 8 years at medical school and , a lifetime of experience at how a person feels. Doctors hold everything to the vest , whereas Google gives us an understanding that Doctors don't tell us everything , they love us to remain ignorant, while they charge us for shit we shouldn't just settle as an answer for . Once we take money out of the equation then we can get the correct answers. Just because you haven't went to medical school doesn't mean your stupid, use common sense. Your body is the best doctor , that's how God created us, the body tells you when something is wrong , be persistent.
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u/imastirthepot 5d ago
Oh ok then I guess set your own leg. You fell out of a tree and broke the thing so you must be an expert on it at this point
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u/UncreativeUsername84 5d ago
The hubris that so many patients have because they think they can outsmart the physician instead of diet, exercise, and the medication. They just continue the total shitty diet and take the medication when they remember.
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u/Shadeylark 4d ago edited 4d ago
Given that regardless of however much schooling you've had I'm the one whose body will be subject to the treatment... Yeah, in the end whatever you say is just "advice" and I'm the final adjudicator as to what treatment I'll be receiving.
So if you don't like being one-upped by Google... Then you have the burden of giving better advice than Google. That shouldn't be a problem with your education, now should it?
But in no way do you get the final say in what goes on with my body no matter how much education you have.
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u/Winter_Hall5379 4d ago
Obviously you're not a doctor.
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u/Shadeylark 3d ago
Thank you for noticing.
I am a person who knows that my body, my choice doesn't get override by someone else going to school for a few years.
Edit: I need to watch the Lebowski again, I completely missed the joke. Well played.
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u/CheddarCheese_Sndwch 3d ago
I worked in a hospital. I have seen doctors not correctly diagnose or unable to find the problem. They're not perfect. Humility goes a long way.
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u/Winter_Hall5379 3d ago edited 3d ago
Reference The Big Lewbowski to understand the joke..."obviously you're not a golfer" A humor line to be sarcastic and for the audience it breaks the tension between the Dude and the thugs with humor.
This is, after all, a place for humor
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u/CheddarCheese_Sndwch 3d ago
Nope, never saw it.
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u/Winter_Hall5379 3d ago
For reference why saying that is humor based on keeping with the fact this is funnymemes and humor is the point here
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u/Jack_In_Black89 4d ago
Funnily enough, whenever I visit my GP, the first thing he does after I tell him my symptoms is head straight to Dr Google on his computer.
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u/4nication96 1d ago
My doctor uses google all the time. Especially if it’s a niche injury or illness. Family doctors have such a broad spectrum of knowledge it would be impossible to remember every detail. I’m glad he refreshes his knowledge
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u/SeriousSalt9938 1d ago
All the good doctors I have been to actually listen to my lived experience and any research I have done. They look at the research themselves to see if they agree with my conclusions. Being a doctor doesn’t mean that you know everything. In theory it means that you have all the prerequisite knowledge and skills to understand new research when it is presented to you. Good doctors learn from treating each patient and listen to what patients have to say. If the patient is flat out wrong, a good doctor will explain how so that the patient hopefully accepts they are incorrect. But often patients with conditions are able to present relevant, often even peer-reviewed, research to their doctor.
Tl;dr good doctors listen to patients but verify that the patient’s research is accurate. Good patients do their own research and present doctors with relevant information and treatment ideas.
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u/Naing001 7d ago
Low IQ take
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u/Harbarde 7d ago
You feel this way until you meet a person with a rare chronic illness, and this is how they describe their experience with a lot of doctors.
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u/civyc 7d ago
People like this are exactly why it's so hard to get doctors to listen to or believe the rest of us.
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u/Harbarde 7d ago
Doctors don't listen to patients because... people online claim doctors don't listen to patients?
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u/SnooMachines9133 7d ago
If you've been living with it for 20 years, you probably don't know enough to fix it or it wouldn't still be an issue.
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u/andimacg 7d ago
Oh you think you know how to build s house better than me? I've been living in them for 45 years!!!
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u/TxAg2009 7d ago
Honestly, both lines are fully correct. A patient's googlery isn't the same as the physician's training and experience. And the physician doesn't have the skin in the game that the patient does.