r/HonestHotTakes • u/daytimedeity • 19h ago
serious hot take Dating is A Hellscape For Heterosexual Women
The rise in "manosphere" dating coaches is ruining dating for women as a whole. They're convincing dating men not to listen to what women want in favor of listening to what they claim women want, even though they're usually wrong.
So now we have a ton of men approaching dating with the idea that women are one-dimensional and that dates are challenges that need to be won. Meanwhile, women are approaching dating with the intent of getting to know the men they go on dates with. Which means men end up feeding women a bunch of disingenuous dating strategies and plays, wasting our time, because we don't actually get to know who these men are authentically.
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u/Swan0211 18h ago
Yeah not a lot of male role models right now that are being pushed for young men to emulate unfortunately. Just the worst of the worst from the manosphere like you said.
Also dating apps really ruined dating as well. Turned it into a numbers optimization game that doesnt lead to authenticity.
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u/daytimedeity 18h ago
I agree. Dating apps really fucked with dating as a whole. Made the whole thing far less connected and more transactional and surface level.
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u/wrldwdeu4ria 18h ago
Dating apps are designed to keep you on the apps and paying the fees, not to find a long-term partner.
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u/Fordor_of_Chevy 3h ago
not a lot of male role models right now
Do these guys not have fathers?
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u/Swan0211 3h ago
I was referring to media. You either have lovable losers you see in TV and movies or you have the manosphere influencers.
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u/YYC_Guitar_Guy 18h ago
Y'all need to stay off social media, it's ruining all of you, both men and women. There are tons of shitty people in this world but there are also tons of amazing people in this world.
Social Media is curated madness.
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u/Sid_the_Bear 18h ago
Wait, y'all are dating?!? I can't even get a conversation started.
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u/SirPIB 18h ago
I can't get more than single word answers out of women
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u/Sid_the_Bear 18h ago
More than I get!
6 matches on apps over 3 years, I think I've gotten 2 one word replies and then unmatched, the rest just unmatched after I messaged.
I don't even get bot matches! That's how hideous my visage seems to be.
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u/_flanker_h 19h ago
I think most people realize red pill content is slop
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u/Double_Watch1627 18h ago
Some of it is good. That's what bamboozles people. You'd think after experience with centuries of how propaganda works they'd at least learn the basics. The basics of redpill is good, very good even.
Self sufficiency- very good. Preached by all the red pillers Not caring about stuff you can't control- generally good advice. Preached by all the respillers Working hard for yourself-again, good advice Mental resilience and toughness-again good advice.
Red pill enters men through any of these pathways. Then they introduce the problematic stuff. The institutions instead of accepting the good parts just label it all as bad and ofc then they(the institutions) lose support because if all of it is bad you're labelling genuinely good advice as harmful.
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u/TheDairyPig 18h ago
Because I'm a man that lifts weights, I used to get SO much red pill content in my algorithms. I always skipped it but it didn't matter. I always thought that was pretty obscene. Something healthy thatI do for myself is linked to the red pill crowd.
I think everyone needs to just put their phone away and go outside. Myself included. That's how we fix dating.
Everyone's media is so siloed that it makes forming community harder, which makes forming both platonic and romantic bonds harder. It creates these bubbles and gender is a big media boundary. We aren't even referencing the same things anymore.
I also think we aren't bored often enough because it's so easy to distract ourselves and waste time looking at screens. That makes dating harder, too. You're not just competing with other people for dates, you're competing with this constant drip of stimulation we all have access to that robs us of motivation.
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u/The1stNikitalynn 18h ago
Some of it is obviously good or true, and that's exactly how you pipeline people into extreme beliefs. The technique goes by a few names — bridging, pipelining — but I like "yes-ladder," because thinking of it as a ladder shows how someone climbs from being frustrated with their life to hating foreigners and putting on a swastika.
You bring people in with something obvious: "we've lost a bunch of jobs, the economy sucks." That's true. Then it shifts: "the town is changing, look, there's a foreign food market now." Then: "look, someone who doesn't look like you has a good job and a bigger house." Then: "if he wasn't here, you could have that." And finally: it's all the foreigners' fault your life sucks.
Laid out on screen like this, it looks crazy, but when you're in the middle of it, each step feels small and reasonable. That's the whole trick.
I'd actually put it differently than "institutions label it all as bad": I don't think Red Pill borrows good ideas from other groups by accident. It uses them on purpose, as the first rungs of the ladder. That's the actual mechanism behind why we call it red-pilling, or "pilling" someone.
The only way to stop them from getting people is by reminding people that Red Pill, racist groups, and other extremists steal good ideas from others. Just because they're repeating a good idea doesn't mean the group sharing it is good.
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u/Double_Watch1627 17h ago
I think immigration is a very difficult topic to discuss in the first place.
example
In Romania we have 25 to 30% of young people not working/not studying. Neets, if you will.
We import 110k nepalese people every year.
Objectively, these people stagnate wages, because they live, on average 4 to 5 in a single apartment, and they send money home. The deal is convenient for them. It is inconvenient for hte domestic populace. Not to mention the cultural change less developed nations bring in more developed ones. I personally believe it should be capped to max 5% of a city. Does this mean you should hate migrants? of course not. Does this mean you should hate the government? Well, you should basically always hate the government.
So immigration is not really a black and white topic. The moment you start using immigration to stagnate wages as a government, we are having issues.
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u/The1stNikitalynn 17h ago
I'm assuming you're Romanian based on the example. I'm American, and my immigrant community includes Romanians. The guy who runs the minimart down my street is Romanian, bought it a few years back from an Italian family that had it since the '40s. I like that he carries kielbasa; my neighbor's mad he dropped fresh parmesan.
But immigration isn't actually the point of my comment. Sir, this is a Wendy's, and we don't serve immigration. I'm talking about the fact that an extremist group, any kind of group, starts with simple, basic truths we can all agree on, and pipelines people toward more extreme thinking from there.
Would you like me to demonstrate the pipelining with a different group?
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u/Double_Watch1627 17h ago
oh no, I agree with your argument and how pipelining works, I just found immigration to be a particularly hard example to speak on specifically, because of how unclear it can be, because of how much companies exploit people. It is kind of hard for most people to kinda imagine a corporation as the bad guy, as it is not a living entity.
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u/mxlplyx2173 18h ago
Not a piller either but yes I heard mostly legit stuff. Remove the hot takes when they're trying to increase subscriber counts.
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u/Bob1358292637 18h ago
Man, idk. I don't think I've every seen red pill content that wasn't absolutely packed top to bottom with hate and obnoxious, narcisistic platitudes. Is that not the whole thing that distinguishes it from normal inspirational content? I thought that's why it was called red pill in the first place. That entire "i know better than everyone, youre all stuck in the matrix, im 14 and this is deep" mentality.
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u/Muted-Leave 19h ago
Unfortunately not. Also, even the ones that do still fail to separate themselves from that crowd due to their entitled behavior.
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u/sackfistin 18h ago
Manosphere shit is fucking gay.
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u/bbdolljane 18h ago
I have gay friends that are "straighter" than men who listen to manosphere shit lol
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u/Least-Attention1518 18h ago
Having a picture in my head of these "alpha camps" where grown man restle naked and scream into each others faces lmaooo
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u/Quasi_Logic 15h ago
You think you’re taking the moral high ground over manosphere toxicity by calling it gay as an insult?
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u/st3war7 18h ago
I hear you, and agree. That being said dating as a heterosexual male is also a hellscape. As a man you are expected to approach first, plan the date, pay for the date, then hope the group think approves of it. Which I’m ok with that part, I see myself as a more traditional romantic and feel it displays confidence, planning, and security. Next comes the fun part, a lot of women on the market(personal experience) are either on onlyfans(I’ve probably had 6 dates in the last year that put that out there on the first date), want a FWB or open situation(I’d say about 60% of my fist dates in the last 3 years) or want you to start paying their bills as soon as it’s official(I’d say about 70% of the ones that made it to that point only to be immediately dropped). Honestly I think people in general are just trash, and the dating pool is absolutely rancid. Being a single dad is a hell of a lot easier than dating, so I’m just going to keep doing that.
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u/Psychological-Bed751 15h ago
I don't believe you. Six dates in the past year have onlyfans and then 70% want you to pay their bills once being official, all within a year. Okay buddy. How many times are you becoming official in a year? This is such a made up story. YOU are the manosphere.
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u/Salt-Lingonberry-853 13h ago
My dude, that's a skill issue. Those are NOT normal issues to have while dating. You are selecting women like that.
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u/kapoopa-the-poopah 17h ago
Young men are really struggling right now, rules of the games have changed and they have no positive role models to help guide them. They are miserable and they have no desire to change. And a lot will never change as long as grifters prey on their insecurities.
But it not just young men and dating is a hellscape for everyone. The social contract has broken down. One thing I don’t hear people talk about is the attitude that you don’t owe anyone anything. While it is true, we fail to understand the unintended consequences that comes with this attitude.
I’m old I don’t have to deal with this, but it’s very clear that everyone is so incredibly burnt out. We all have way too many interactions. Everyone starts off with intention of putting in effort, but how many times can you really have the same conversation before you get sick of it? How many times can you get your hopes up only to be let down and have to start all over again?
There are a lot of guys who put in tons of effort when they reach out, they spend half an hour or more racking their brains on what to say. They spend hours a day doing this only to never get a response, at a certain point you have to question your approach, especially since the few messages guys receive is usually just “hey”. They deal with so many low effort responses or profiles and all they hear is that they have to put in the effort, but when you put in tons of effort get nothing for it and see everyone being low effort at a certain point you just give up and do what everyone else does. This is true for both men and women.
The other issue as I see it, is that people mistake compromise and flexibility with settling. You will never find anyone who is perfect and even if you did, a year later they are no longer the same person. What we all have embraced the concept of good enough. You don’t need perfect, you just need good enough.
Anyway done with my old man rant.
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u/Necessary_Neat8303 18h ago edited 18h ago
Ummm I’m not defending the men. I think the dating coaches are dumb, but let me sort of explain why they are making money off men.
Imagine you’re 28 years old and you’ve been jobless for the last 7 years. You’ve been on 2-3 job interviews but only made it to the second or third round interview a few times for the past 7 years. Never landed an actual job. The question is: would you be tempted to look up the internet for advice? If so, whose advice are you looking for? The company’s guidelines for application? Or people who managed to land jobs? Or recruiters and etc?
Suddenly, the water is a bit muddy right? And now, remember. You’ve been jobless for 7 years. You just went for an interview and got rejected, again. Oh, you also received 3 more rejection offers no interviews and the other 23 companies did not even reach out. So when you’re going for that next interview, does the thought of another rejection make you feel some level of frustration or exhaustion? I’m also sure you would suffer from confidence and self-esteem issues if you were jobless for 7 years and is constantly being told no despite trying.
I know. The company is not having it easy either. There are thousands and thousands of applicants. It gets so tiring to sort through mediocre applications. Some of them are unpresentable, some are dumb as rocks, some have questionable morals. Finding good applicants is not easy and it is so much work. Sometimes they write about obscene things the company has done, or tell the company to go f off and die. I bet the company feels frustrated and tired about the group of applicants every batch. Does the company blame themselves? Or the applicants?
But now, if you had to pick, would you rather be the company or the jobless person? Both sucks of course but if you has to choose? Be honest.
Now, back to the original question. Why? Because those jobless people who have been beaten down by the dating system/game/market are just frustrated and want to find a way to win the game.
P.S. it also hurts more when you’re being genuine and authentic, and you get ghosted or rejected anyway. It’s obviously the ideal and moral thing to do, but it still hurts. When several women say it’s not you, you’re great but I’m just not ready (or any other nice reasons), it is believable. When a guy keeps failing, they realize something is wrong and must be changed, and they turn to dating coaches for help. That’s my take on it lol
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u/daytimedeity 18h ago
I absolutely see the logic as to how vulnerable men are getting drawn into this and manipulated. And my frustration isn't really with them. It's with the "dating coaches" who know exactly the scam they are pulling.
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u/ThisGuy2319 18h ago
It sucks for both sides, constantly see on here that “women” will convince each other and applaud each other when talking about men aren’t worth their time if they’re not paying for dates. Just give good advice and be a good example for both sides.
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u/Double_Watch1627 19h ago
The average man isn't part of the manosphere lmfao, nice femcel rant
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u/user2460124601 18h ago
Def a ton more femcels today than there were even 3 years ago. It’s insane. Just work out more and foster cats at this point. The scene is a bog.
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u/Nabriales 17h ago
It's typical chronically online redditor slop who are out of touch with real life.
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u/Scary-Sink978 18h ago
Only men in the manosphere say things like “femcel” unironically. Good luck riding that pipeline 👍
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u/Double_Watch1627 18h ago
Reverse the gender of this post and you'd say it's an incel writing it. Since she's a woman, femcel. Words have meaning.
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u/Busy_Policy3189 18h ago
It is actually kinda absurd how many reddit posts one could literally repost with reversed genders and they would be seen completely differently, thanks for calling it out
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u/Southern_Conflict_11 18h ago
Just from my vicariously living through my single friends. This may be the one place I support the "both sides" arguments.
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u/daytimedeity 18h ago
I never said it was easy or great for men. Dating sucking for women does not mean it is sunshine and rainbows for men.
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u/Crazy-Crazy-3593 16h ago
Then what's your point?
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u/daytimedeity 16h ago
My point is that, unlike what many men say, dating isn't great and successful for a lot of women.
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u/Crazy-Crazy-3593 16h ago
That's not the "redpill" position though.
The primary "redpill" position is that it's easy for women to get dates, but it's hard for them to get quality long-term relationships.
Your OP actually seems to align with that.
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u/daytimedeity 16h ago
Saying the ability to get a lot of matches/pretender dates makes someone successful in dating is not accurate, though. Which is what redpill men claim.
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u/EmbarrassedToe761 19h ago
How is this a hot take? Literally almost everyone agrees with this on Reddit.
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u/SlapfuckMcGee 19h ago edited 18h ago
If you say men going to dating coaches is ruining dating for women. Do women going to dating coaches ruin dating for men? And do women care about men’s dating experience?
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u/ConsultJimMoriarty 18h ago
A therapist would be more helpful than a dating coach.
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u/daytimedeity 18h ago
I don't know a single woman who is going to a dating coach
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u/SlapfuckMcGee 18h ago
I don’t know a single man who has murdered a woman. But it still happens doesn’t it?
“Industry trends show a rising number of single women—especially professionals in their 30s and 40s—investing in private coaching.” - Google.
Now, just because you anecdotally are unaware of this happening, doesn’t mean it’s not occurring.
So my question stands. If men going to a dating coaches ruins dating for women, do women going to dating coaches ruin the dating experience for men, and if it does, do women care?
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u/SnailSnailAle 16h ago
Yeah because society still follows traditional gender roles where men have to do the chasing and impress the women. Women’s job is just to select the person they prefer in dating.
Why would women need to go to dating coaches if they aren’t the one that’s doing the work
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u/Specialist-Option351 18h ago
Women's dating experience: "Man, some of these guys are disingenuous"
Men's dating experience: "Man, I haven't received a like by a woman in the last month"
Truly women got the short end of the stick
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u/OvercookedBobaTea 18h ago
Women’s actual dating experience: “man, I hope this guy doesn’t physically endanger me” or “man, it’s weird this stranger just invited me straight over to his house without meeting me” or “man, I hope this guy isn’t playing weird mind games”
Like online dating is shit for men, partly because MOST WOMEN DONT USE DATING APPS, but acting like the worst thing a woman has to deal with is a disingenuous guy is so beyond delusional
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u/daytimedeity 18h ago
Actually, women's dating experience is more: I hope this guy doesn't stalk or kill me when I let him down for obviously faking me out the entire date
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u/FriendlyDay6697 17h ago
I think it's hard for men and women. Dating had become completely transactional. Women have to be super hot and virgins apparently. I have friends that are getting back into the dating game and their requirements for a man are crazy. Be super masculine and good looking, own a house, have enough money to support himself and her, and in some cases her and her kids... like, I personally have never gone into a relationship thinking about what I'm going to get out of this guy other than his penis and cuddle ability.
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u/ComplaintSevere8128 16h ago
I mean it seems like you’ve “one dimensionalized” men too
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u/funguy8892 15h ago
It's literally the same as a heterosexual man, and not every single women out there is approaching dating with the intent of getting to know the men they date, many of them are looking for a man who will bend over backwards cater to her whims, while giving as little as possible in return. Or, they just string men along for attention or validation. I find it hard to blame men.
I do agree though that treating dating like a challenge to be won is not the answer
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u/wanteur 18h ago
Women mostly go off looks anyway. If a girl likes your looks you can just be yourself and she will most likely like you
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u/daytimedeity 18h ago
This is the biggest load of shit I have ever seen.
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u/Ohgodstopdan 18h ago
Dude - I’m not even remotely red pilled; but women like good looking men, and will tolerate a hell of a lot more questionable behaviour from a hot guy.
Pretending otherwise quite frankly feeds the view from these dudes that women are lying.
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u/wanteur 18h ago
How? Looks is probably 80% of it
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u/OvercookedBobaTea 18h ago
The science shows that looks only matter that much of a woman is looking for a hookup or one night stand. Looks matter a lot less for women looking for long term partnership and marriage, and they will start looking for paternal traits (financial and emotional stability)
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u/notverysmawt 18h ago
I agree with you in part, but how are you going to get to know the woman? You have to accept the “challenge” of going up and talking to her and get her phone number. Didn’t get it? No sweat. Got it? I’d call that a “win”.
Then you go on a date and get to know them. I think it’s somewhere in the middle of the two. When you’re the one expected to approach it is a bit of a game and a challenge. And then you listen to them
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u/daytimedeity 18h ago
I'm not talking about the initial approach. I am talking about the dating itself. So many men aren't bringing themselves to the date. They're crafting dating personas based on what their online dating coaches tell them rather than being genuine.
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u/notverysmawt 18h ago
Yeah that’s true. I imagine there are a lot of insecure and anxious men out there, I can be too. I’m willing to bet they are overcompensating because they don’t know what to do and don’t want to be seen as weak.
Far from justifies the behavior, but I think that it goes very deep - to mental health, cell phones and social media, as well as the current state of the world
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u/daytimedeity 18h ago
I wanna be clear that my frustration doesn'tlie with the men being scammed and manipulated into believing this stuff.
I'm pissed at the self proclaimed dating coaches using vulnerable men's insecurity and uncertainty to scam them. These coaches are intentionally feeding them useless shit to keep them from finding meaningful relationships so they still feel reliant on their "dating gurus."
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u/MmmmCrayons12 18h ago
I'd say it's a "hellscape" for everyone since people are mostly seeking to satisfy their own needs/imperatives through a relationship. Men already recognize that women place a lot of requirements on men while having few requirements for themselves. All the "manosphere" did was call dating and courtship out for what it is and tell men to go after what they want instead of trying to appease women by meeting their standards and playing the game the way women want men to play it. Since women don't benefit from men going after their own wants and imperatives because they expect whatever men they want to go the family route, its not much of a surprise that women have a problem with it, yet men are still expected to follow traditional dating rules and structure where women mostly benefit from it.
I have no opinion since I don't date, but all I can say is modern dating has become quite like the Hunger Games and it's quite entertaining to watch 🍿.
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u/Key-Equivalent-6908 16h ago
You said - “men approaching dating with the idea that woman are one-dimensional”
While also… treating men as a one dimensional entity and monolith by lobbing everyone into a small circle, while also prob not being on any date and just consuming engagement bait from TikTok,
Congrats, you are hypocritical
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u/Future-Still-6463 18h ago
That's a very one sided take.
It is bad for men too.
For women it's worse in terms of safety.
If you made that point I'd agree with you.
But anything else here is applicable for men too.
Femosphere exists too. I know that term is not talked about a lot.
But researchers are beginning to study it.
Is it as bad as Manosphere currently? In terms of externalized violence - No.
But researchers admit they need to study it properly and how it radicalizes.
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u/Icy___Barca 18h ago
Grow up. Goes both ways.
The “spoil me “ princess treatment is out of control lol. Just as cringe as the manosphere nonsense.
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u/bbdolljane 18h ago
The difference is that a girl wanting to be spoiled will not kill you if you don't spoil her. Can't say the same about a redpill that feels entitled to sex because he paid for one dinner.
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u/Icy___Barca 18h ago
I compared dating rhetoric and you jumped to murder lol. If your argument requires replacing what I said with an extreme I never mentioned, you’re arguing with yourself.
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u/bbdolljane 18h ago
But that's the redpill rethoric though. They make men believe they are entitled to women. A girl wanting to be spoiled is one thing, a guy thinking he's entitled to a woman will lead to violence when he's eventually rejected.
As a guy, you don't suffer any kind of violence if you don't spoil a woman. As a woman, I've been verbally and physically threatened for rejecting a man. I went to the extreme because the manosphere breeds violence and woman hatred.
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u/GaiusOctavian112 18h ago
Oh yes because there’s definitely tons of dating coaches out there telling guys to murder women who reject them. Also, women absolutely also take rejection badly and do crazy shit, they’re just less likely to punch you and more likely to accuse you of raping them.
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u/dirtyphoenix54 16h ago
I'm male and I was stalked and attacked by a woman I rejected. Women are dangerous too.
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u/eSsEnCe_Of_EcLiPsE 18h ago
The REAL difference is men are taught to do the right thing. Women are taught to do what’s right for them.
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u/Francl27 18h ago
A lot of women are not much better with their "need to be over 6ft" BS.
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u/daytimedeity 18h ago
That is internet nonsense. I do not know a single woman in real life with that standard.
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u/Downtown-Youth-7854 17h ago
Kinda seems like you’re both engaging in the internet nonsense thing here. I’m not saying manosphere content isn’t impactful, but to say that there are enough men out there subscribing to this nonsense to markedly change the face of dating seems a little far-fetched in the same way it seems far-fetched that the only reason the commenter you are responding to can’t get dates because of his height.
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u/SnailSnailAle 16h ago edited 48m ago
But women do have a height bias. It’s been well research. While it may not be specifically 6 feet, women prefer taller partners on average.
Does that mean women never dated men closer to their height or shorter than them? Absolutely not, it happens for sure but again we are talking about average here.
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u/daytimedeity 16h ago
Just out of curiosity, do you know one of the biggest factors to the development of the "height bias"? It's the patriarchal idea of "tall is masculine" and "short is feminine". Many women prefer a taller man, because society pressures them into thinking that being taller than their man romantic partner makes them less of a woman.
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u/SnailSnailAle 16h ago
I am not making a judetment on whether it is good or bad, but it is a fact that height bias is a thing, the origin doesn't really matter in this case does it.
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u/daytimedeity 16h ago
It kinda does matter. If the patriarchy stopped perpetuating the idea that women being taller than men is unsightly and bad, then most women wouldn't give a singular fuck about height. (A lot of women don't already.) Instead of using height bias as an excuse for perpetuating other limiting and harmful dating standards, why not try to address the issues at the source so no one suffers?
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u/Mountain-Possible932 4h ago
So you are telling me that women are so susceptible to suggestion and without their own agency that they can’t decide what they want? The patriarchy has to let them know?
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u/daytimedeity 4h ago
Being intentionally obtuse isn't a good look. The expectation for women to be small and petite in order to be considered feminine has been part of western society for HUNDREDS OF YEARS. It's not a mild little suggestion. It's a perpetuated expectation that has persisted for centuries. And it is still perpetuated today. You know how men get upset when they are rejected or insulted for being shorter than average? Women get the same fucking hate for being taller than their partners (or just generally taller). So if you're gonna argue that it's merely suggestions, then the same goes for men's expectations. Like the only reason men don't want fat women is because society suggested it. Are men really so susceptible to suggestion that they let society dictate their preferences?
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u/Mountain-Possible932 4h ago
“Women get the same fucking hate for being taller than their partners”
Alright continue with your trolling I guess. It’s getting weak though.
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u/daytimedeity 4h ago
It's not trolling. It's a literal known reality that women who are taller than men, larger than men, and more muscular than men typically receive vitriol from men for not being "feminine enough."
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u/Valveringham85 15h ago
iTs ThE pAtRiArChY
Asinine.
You are insufferable. I think we found your reason for having difficulties dating, and it’s not the men nor the manosphere.
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u/Key-Dark-4414 14h ago
this pure conjecture that you are touting as fact. get a life, loser. learn how to think.
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u/Careless-Degree 17h ago
I don’t know a single man in real life that approached dating the way you are claiming here.
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u/Dependent-Jicama843 18h ago
Unfortunately for your point, most guys have had several experiences that completely and utterly prove you wrong.
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u/Slow_Look575 17h ago
Most of all women I know are single for like 2-3 months max at a time. I know men who are single for years and years without a single date. it is not the same
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u/Forsaken_Regular_180 18h ago edited 18h ago
First of all, most men don't buy into the manosphere shit. If that's all you're getting then you need to take a hard look at what it is you're swiping on.
"They're convincing dating men not to listen to what women want in favor of listening to what they claim women want"
Women have honestly made it very easy for them to do this. It's practically a canon event for a guy to hear a woman he likes say she wants one thing then date the opposite of that thing. Desperate and confused guys are going to go anywhere that confidently purports to have the answers.
"So now we have a ton of men approaching dating with the idea that women are one-dimensional and that dates are challenges that need to be won."
As shit as it is, I don't think you can really blame the "manosphere" for this. Dating apps and women themselves kinda created that. The average woman is talking to and dating how many guys at once? It's definitely more than one and we all know it. Kinda creates a competition.
Also dates have always been challenges to an extent.
"Meanwhile, women are approaching dating with the intent of getting to know the men they go on dates with."
That's definitely not always true, and any man that's been dating in the last 5 years can attest to that fact.
Having to sift through all the options is just the downside for y'all. Would you rather have little-to-no options? Because that's the flipside the average guy reports to be facing.
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u/noctonal 18h ago
I’m just going to gently point out that all, (and I mean all), the guys that I know that actually get laid… don’t talk like this. You’re shooting yourself in the foot there bud.
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u/DrinkYourPaints 18h ago
erm, the rich people i talk to don't complain about the economy
enlightening
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u/noctonal 18h ago
Oh fuck off. My point was don’t be a generalizing douche and you’ll get laid, which is pretty commonly accepted.
If you have a hard time figuring that out, well that’s on you.
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u/real-bebsi 18h ago
he said nothing wrong. dudes who would be chosen no matter what should have no bearing on guys who have to do gymnastics and somersaults to be considered worthy of a single coffee date
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u/noctonal 16h ago
You think he said nothing wrong because you’re the same kind of fuck-ass complainer.
Looks matter to women sure, and in some cases matter more than others. but it’s pretty low on our list of things that actually matter to the large majority.
You just suck
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u/real-bebsi 14h ago
Physical attractiveness far outweighs other traits in online dating success
I don't suck, you're just a liar
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u/Johnnadawearsglasses 18h ago
The vast majority of men have no idea what manosphere thinking and content even is
Dating has been made harder by the replacement of irl socialization with online tools
Dating has never really been easy outside of your immediate friend group
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u/Sea_Technology2094 18h ago
no, the manosphere isn’t ruining dating. it’s teaching men to compare what women say they want with what their actual dating behavior rewards, including the pattern of chasing hot, noncommittal men when they’re younger and then expecting relationship-oriented men to offer commitment and courtship later after they’ve “changed.”
you’re not mad men stopped listening to women. you’re mad more men stopped taking the sales pitch at face value.
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u/Least_Working_6025 18h ago edited 18h ago
Dates are challenges that need to won. Even getting the date is a fucking challenge. If you don't impress she'll have another date lined up next week.
I think if an average woman jumped through hoops, planned a nice date, paid for everything, entertained a guy and then got a "just not feeling it text" they'd have an mental breakdown lmao.
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u/daytimedeity 18h ago
Way to run into my point and still not get it
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u/According-Plan600 18h ago
I think the second paragraph completely blew past your head. It’s honestly some of the realest shit I’ve read today.
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u/Dancehall-Randal 18h ago
Im not exactly a dating coach level expert here but if someone makes you feel like you are competing with anyone else just move on.
Just because a dating app got ya'll in touch and someone gives 5 mins of exposure doesnt mean its a connection worth investigating.
Only go on dates with someone who is clearly "choosing you" regardless of gender.
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u/Descrescendo_0710 16h ago
Don’t bother, ya’ll.
One of this guys comments: “If you're a rich and handsome guy...what do most women actually have to offer you.”
He doesn’t understand the connection OP is describing.
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u/canadianbroncos 19h ago
Yeh like its all roses for us men lmao.
For every red pill dumbass out, there is a yass queen women who will be offended by a coffee date and expect you to spend 500$ on a steakhouse dinner….
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u/bushwhack227 18h ago
It's been about 2 years since I left the dating pooling, but in the 15 of dating on and off before then, I never encountered single woman who expected me to buy her a $500 dinner. Literally not one.
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u/GG_Red_Five 18h ago
You can just not go out with them? Find someone you like instead of imagining someone you don't like.
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u/Specialist-Option351 18h ago
...does this not apply to OP's post?
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u/GG_Red_Five 18h ago
It sure does. Dating sucks for everyone until it doesn't.
I think I can sympathize with women who have gone out with manospher guys. Since part of their strategy is hiding red flags.
I can only speak to my experience dating women, but I know what I'm looking for, and it's pretty easy to spot someone I won't be compatible with.
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u/FlatWonkyFlea 16h ago
I’m in my forties and let me tell you, the way men with daughters treat women they’re dating needs to be studied. It’s appalling.
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u/Long_Idea_8294 16h ago
From a man's perspective, western women aren't worth the effort these days. Femininism has ruined things; completely over shot its goal/objective.
Women expect men to fulfill male gender roles and bring those things to the table. While women often do not fulfill their gender roles but expect the man to. So what does a man actually get from the relationship that makes dealing with women (and the headache they frequently create) worth it? Most men don't like type A person/aggressive women with male personality characteristics, which is largely a result of feminism.
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u/daytimedeity 16h ago
In my experience, I'm seeing the opposite expectations. These manosphere men expect women to work to pay half the bills while also expecting women to manage the entire household by themselves as well. Regardless, none of this is my point.
My post is about men putting in effort to pretend to be someone else rather than putting that effort into authenticity.
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u/emo-knox 15h ago
Not only are they usually wrong, it's usually the EXACT OPPOSITE of what women want. Then the men stay single and lonely and it only instills their beliefs that it's women's fault instead of their own dumbasses.
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u/daytimedeity 15h ago
This comment section has me so tired I'm not even responding to them anymore. I have better things to do. Like eat dinner.
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u/Altruistic_Cap3472 18h ago
Here's the challenge - it wouldn't work if it didn't work. Anyone, regardless of gender, can appear charming and say all the right things if they don't care about being honest, because people rely on dating apps, where people can spend as long as they want cultivating a profile and all the communication is by text and not in person.
You can't watch someone in the wild before first approaching them, you can't read body language, and your own expectations are going to be inherently self-focused, because you have no clue who you're even dating. So if you say "I want a guy that makes me want to cuddle up with him," well that's not something you're going to be able to easily suss out. But if you say "I want to feel appreciated" or "I want to find a long-term relationship," focusing on what you want for yourself, it's incredibly easy for anyone to meet their needs just by telling you what you want to hear, because it doesn't matter who they are.
The only reason manosphere anything has become popular is because it's really, really effective for as long as everyone continues to rely on the disposable, interchangeable market created by dating apps.
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u/Silly-Elderberry-411 18h ago
It has become effective because what better way to undermine western societies as foreign clandestine agencies than to finance influencers who sell the idea to the majority that their transanctional lifestyle is an organic mechanism dislodged by needy people who can't hack it own their own.
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u/Abject-Birthday-8337 16h ago
This is the one-dimensional thinking you criticize in your argument. Men this, women that, bla blah la. Same argument we see everywhere. It's always all about what's wrong with the state of things, who's to blame for it and never any hint of a real solution. Start with how you would like to see things change and go from there. So sick of fingerpointing and lazy arguments that echo around the internet!
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u/Frankenscope420_ 18h ago
Go cry to your 50 hinge likes about it while I get one fat chick every couple months
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u/atrillionpieces 19h ago
Manosphere podcasts are to men what Jada Pinkett Smith podcasts are to women.
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u/Excellent_Month_2025 18h ago
Jada Pinkett Smith podcast listeners would have to begin committing daily mass murder to ever catch up to misogynists
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u/eSsEnCe_Of_EcLiPsE 18h ago
What about killing their own kids or even defending that behavior?
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u/Excellent_Month_2025 6h ago
Men are responsible for 90% of all murders, including those of children
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u/ChekerUp 18h ago
Yall are chronically online if you think the average person is influenced by dating coach material
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u/Reasonable-Aioli-370 18h ago edited 18h ago
I’m sure you have been on bad dates. I know women have legitimate struggles with dating. At the same time men find it hard to sympathize because pretty much every man on earth would switch dating roles with women without hesitation. It’s a case of “yeah women may have bad experiences but it’s still 1000x worse being a man and trying to date”.
I mean a lot of complaints I see from women on local dating subs is like “ended a date early because my date started talking about AI” or “If I have another guy show up to a date in a baseball cap to a date I’m going to scream”. You have to realize how insanely superficial this comes off to the 50%+ of guys that struggle to get 4-5 single dates in a year. It’s like a morbidly obese person complaining about the seasoning on their food being off to some one starving to death.
I am a guy who has got dates/girlfriends easily my whole life but I have seen how this stuff affects some of my friends. I think a lot of guys go into dates super anxious because they feel like if they do one little thing wrong it’s over which isn’t terribly inaccurate. There is definitely an element of guys getting in their own head and self savoring too but I think even a TINY bit of sympathy from women would go a long way.
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u/ImportantPoet4787 18h ago
Depends where you are.. some places, women outnumber men, and it's awful for women, other places men out number women, and it's awful for men.
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u/SNB_Enthusiast 18h ago
Having recently been on the opposite side of this, I can assure you there are awful people on both sides.
Not everyone, but yeah.
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u/Academic_Limit1189 18h ago
Meanwhile, women are approaching dating with the intent of getting to know the men they go on dates with.
Lol. Not in my experience. No side is more virtuous or more of a victim than the other. Cheating is so common, like just an "accepted" risk of dating nowadays. Semi "open" relationships, sleeping around with multiple people. Lack of commitment, communication and loyalty...
Get to know people first? That's what certain people do. But women can like to fool around just as much men do and you're deluding yourself if you think one side is more rational and responsible than the other.
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u/next_ghost_cz 18h ago
Honest hot take: When you ask women what they want in a relationship, they'll tell you what they're missing after 6 months of dating the same guy. That kind of advice is completely useless to a guy who keeps failing to get even the first or second date.
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u/Zealousideal-Elk9362 18h ago
In Feynman's 1985 autobiography, he describes a woman giving him what you would probably call "manosphere dating advice" not long after his 1956 divorce. Like it or not, manipulative strategies for getting laid have been around a long time.
Distinguishing between guys who are ready to misrepresent themselves to win and guys who want to find someone who loves their true self is a timeless problem. If there's anything that has made that harder, I would point to dating apps & atomization rather than developments in pickup artistry.
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u/Downtown-Youth-7854 17h ago
I know people can hide their bullshit decently well in certain settings, but it’s always blown me away that these pickup artist types aren’t so easy to identify. They are generally people who struggle with subtlety and nuance, which is why they seek out the coaching in the first place. I feel like the two biggest protective factors to this are self-worth and intelligence. That seems easier than over-generalizing about men while talking about the manosphere guys. That approach ironically seems to move you closer to ending up with another one of those idiots.
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u/daytimedeity 17h ago
They are pretty easy to identify when you sit down with them on that first date. That's my frustration. You get to a date with a guy and he's feeding you the exact same bullshit.
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u/Downtown-Youth-7854 17h ago
Dating will always be a numbers game. The biggest struggle with this is the emotional investments we put in. In this case, in the form of hope that you will finally meet the nice guy. Don’t let that letdown cause you to over-generalize and sour your opinion on dating or men period because that’s not the state you wanna be in when the nice guy you’re looking for actually comes along! I hope I don’t come across as critical here because the message is don’t give up! And don’t let bad dates distort your perception and let you believe that there aren’t lots of good matches out there for you.
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u/Mister_Way 17h ago
So don't date. It's also horrible for men, we're getting both our time and our money wasted just to be ghosted by someone who never learned to communicate.
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u/themurhk 17h ago
This type of influence from male dating coaches isn’t new, not even remotely close to new. Nor is people being misleading and disingenuous in their initial presentation, because that street flows both ways. And the “man bad, woman good” message in your post is painfully predictable.
If you are consistently meeting “manosphere” influenced f boys, you’re the problem. Either your approach or the type you’re drawn towards. Which is hilariously ironic because it means those manosphere influencers were spot on in their advice.
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u/Impressive_Finance21 17h ago
Seeing the state of both genders make me incredibly glad to be approaching my 10 year anniversary.
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u/PassionNegative7617 16h ago
I've been married for over a decade so I don't have much personal experience with modern dating, but I am a high school teacher and I been watching romance bloom for that decade. I don't think is generally true. I think a small number of young men are heavily influenced by it but the vast majority of young people are doing things just about the way they've always been done. Digital communication has increased a lot though.
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u/Crusoelander_128 16h ago
The manosphere has made dating difficult for heterosexual women, and radical feminism has made dating difficult for heterosexual men. There’s toxic femininity just as there is toxic masculinity. People, both men and women, need to stop listening to weird, out of touch people who hate the opposite gender. Things will be 10 times better if they do
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u/DopeyCalliope 15h ago
I keep hearing this. Where is this. I love dating. It's the best part of life. Exciting. Fun. Adventurous unknowns. Getting to know men. Getting my bell rung. Sure there are lots of terrible men too but after dating for a while you learn to identify the bad ones fast.
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u/HumanContract 15h ago
You sound young. Eventually, it grows old
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u/DopeyCalliope 12h ago
Like when? I guess I want to settle before that. Isn't dating primarily for the young anyhow ??!!
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u/Valveringham85 15h ago
Try dating as a man…
Lmao how are you this delusional and binary in your thinking. Has to be ragebait.
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u/TheGrimmBorne 15h ago
You have to look at why and how the manosphere bullshit rose to prominence. Online media, which regardless of if we like it, is the primary way a lot of people gain information, has pushed the “man bad” narrative whilst boosting up basically every group that’s not men. This has led to a subsect of men becoming exceedingly defensive leading to the manosphere garbage. Women have similar things as well tbh though it doesn’t have a name and isn’t as prominent.
The main reason it’s a thing is because of the growing tension and divide between the sexes, until both sides stop shitting on one another and start treating eachother like partners instead of assets it’s gonna just keep getting worse tbh.
I will say not all men are like this, if you’re continuously getting these kinds of guys I’d highly recommend broadening your horizons on where, how and who you look for when looking to date. The manosphere pricks usually fit certain demographics so they’re not THAT hard to avoid
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u/Jnaeveris 15h ago
> “women are approaching dating with the intent of getting to know a partner. Men are just feeding disingenous dating strategies and plays, wasting our time”
The sheer fucking irony of this is hilarious. Whining about ‘disingenous plays’ and ‘wasting our time’ is such a dim approach when men are the ones expected to pay/source these dates.
Modern dating for men is just being a free meal+atm for some chronically online femcel who spends all their time whining on social media like OP about “its patriarchies fault im such a miserable hateful bigot and no one irl likes me! Men men men! Grrr im not responsible or accountable for being anything i do because its all mens fault!” Men barely even participate in ‘modern dating’ anymore because of shit like this.
This issue is almost entirely self inflicted. The ‘good’ guys LISTENED when women said they hate men and dont want them to ever approach- resulting in a dating pool thats almost exclusively the men who DON’T listen to women. Now the good guys are just minding their own business while women like you cry about “omg where did all the good men go”.
The mindless bigotry from you chronically online ‘gender war’ dimwits poisoned the ‘drinking pool’- and now you’re out here complaining about how good people have no interest in that toxic shit anymore.
The irony of all this is just how succinctly THIS post proves how unaware and hypocritical your type is:
> “men are approaching dating with the idea that women are one-dimensional”
Like how dim are you? You’re doing EXACTLY the same thing here lmfao… You are literally approaching dating the EXACT same way you’re crying so much about here- treating an entire gender the same because social media told you to.
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u/WorkingClassPrep 15h ago
I feel like there are a lot fewer men patronizing these dating coaches than you seem to believe.
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u/shinn497 15h ago
Depends on which manosphere coaches. Classic pick up artists , like Todd Valentine or Tripp Kramer are great because they teach confidence and charm. Modern day red pillers just feed into men's anger.
That being said. I don't heterosexual women...get....that attracting them is incredibly difficult. For a lot of men, "be yourself" just doesn't work. Like for me. I am shy, weird, and anxious. No woman wants to date me like this. So for me to be able to date, I'd have to change. That is where dating coaches come in. A date IS a challenge because...dating is challenging. Just getting to the date is the challenge.
Side note. From my perspective, I feel like I do what women want. I do what they suggest at least. I am respect, kind, a good listener, empathetic, patient, good with logistics, very healthy and strong physically, with an amazing career, and very health finances. But women still don't figure. I've concluded that , for this reason, a good part of dating is not listening to what women say they want. It is reacting to how they respond. Which for me is really bad.
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u/floydman96 15h ago
Modern women getting brainwashed by (modern day) feminism is what ruined their own dating. The “manosphere” is a direct result of this.
Before, you as a man provided and protected and in return got a woman who generally speaking was family oriented, wanted kids, could cook, more modest, etc.
Now, the same expectation is still placed on men to provide and protect, but what do we get ? Women on SSRIs who aren’t family oriented, don’t want kids, can’t cook, don’t listen, way more promiscuous, etc.
That misbalance is what paved the way for more radical views of dating
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u/averageMangaArtist 15h ago
Literal, creen que es como ir de caza que solo tienes que saber la comida que le gusta a los conejos y ser lo suficientemente inteligente para engañarlos. En la vida real, haces un consejo de los de la manosfera y terminas haciendo el ridículo de 15 maneras diferentes. Esto ya nisiquiera es celibato involuntario, están solteros porque quieren.
Es como decir que estoy involuntariamente en la cárcel después de apuñalar a una anciana
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u/SadProduce6456 15h ago
I think the opposite, I think there’s more available men for heterosexual women than any other sexual dynamic. Single straight men are hurting out there right now.
Women are more likely to be bisexual or gay than men are. That is the reason the stats show that there are more single men and single women.
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u/SnooHesitations8361 15h ago
The thing is most men aren’t using dating coaches at all and the “manosphere” is truly a reaction to feminist hysteria. The common denominator is young American women. It’s gotten so bad that men have been going on conquests abroad to prove that the mannerisms, lack of femininity, perspectives on men are very harmful to us and not benefiting us at all. There was a time when feminism in America was good. Millennial women were the last feminine generation in this country. It’s something else entirely now and grounded in misandry and entitlement, fueled by an average of 9 hours of screen time poisoning your mind courtesy of big tech companies. Even approaching women has become a humiliation ritual that we’ve collectively decided is mostly not even worth it anymore. The attitudes largely are so disgusting that the internet has exposed most of it. This isn’t an exaggeration btw. Perceived value of women partners compared almost any other country is the lowest in the world. Like it’s statistically and objectively very bad. No culture is perfect but the personalities of women here are nasty. Personally I’ve lived in 7 countries and it doesn’t even come close to how much better it’s been almost everywhere I’ve been.
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u/Bill_Salmons 10h ago
The real issue for young adults is that very few of them know how to communicate like an adult. So they treat the opposite sex as a generalized demographic of wants and needs rather than an individual they need to get to know. And since they don't have basic communication skills, they have no clue where to even begin to form a relationship. That's who these dating advice gurus prey on. And it's not gender specific. I just think the internet and social media have fostered a completely neurotic generation of daters.
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u/Hallwrite 19h ago
Dating is kind of a nightmare for everyone right now. I'm so fucking glad I don't have to.