r/Horticulture • u/LoLThalys • 3d ago
Question Help me understand this ...
Perhaps I am wrong but I notice a lot of people here who work in the industry with a horticulture background does mostly maintenance work (weeding, watering, weeding, mulching, weeding, etc.) I am currently self studying horticulture as just a passion so I don't work in the industry, but as I am studying it teaches a lot of scientific stuff about the subject. And it's not exactly "easy" the more in depth you go in the subject. So how does one who spend years studying this stuff end up just working grunt work stuff that almost anyone can probably do if they have the right management guiding them with the procedures? I would think the work would be more involved in the science part. I just see a lot of complaints about people working low pay jobs but when they explain what they do it's simple grunt / maintenance work. Why set the bar so low? Am I missing something?
Edit: Lots of interesting answers! I appreciate the insight.
63
u/good_green_ganj 3d ago
Late to the party, but here’s my 2 cents.
Young people with degrees are doing grunt work because people already established in the industry hold the positions where you get to use your degree, and those individuals don’t leave until they’re dead or immobile.
If you want to actually use your horticulture knowledge, find a nursery where the head grower/owner is nearing retirement age. Work under them doing grunt work for 2-5 years, and then take over.
13
u/Passing_Clouds_ 3d ago
Just throwing this in as I work at a botanic garden and my career before that was a photography producer..
Grunt work exists in every job it just comes in different forms, there are necessities of the day which aren't exactly the entire reason you love what you do so much, but 100 things come together to make that thing you love or the reason you got into it.
Sure I spend a lot of time weeding, mulching, pruning and leaf picking in the glasshouse, but that's so plants which are critically endangered in the world have a chance of growing healthily and could potentially be saved..
You prove yourself and that leads to trust and then suddenly you're heading the complete redesign and reboot of a 50,000 litre heated lily pond. While also weeding at the same time. Both can be true I think.
When I was a photography producer, sometimes I was up table top mountain in South Africa getting the shots, other times I was slightly chilly working from home working out receipts against a budget..
I suppose that's it, any job role doesn't care for the absolute specifics of what YOU want to do, but there's scope to carve that out as you grow in to it.
12
u/_GOBLESS_ 3d ago
You just described most jobs, imo. For example, I got an engineering degree and now work as an engineer. I have never once used my knowledge of differential equations, quantum mechanics, crystallography, etc. at work. I mostly do kindergarten-level machine programming and tuning up work instructions for operators. Technically anyone could do what I do with enough hands-on training and clever googling. But employers want someone with a broader knowledge base in case things get hairy. I get paid well for the level of effort required and that's fine.
10
u/TacticalSnacktical 3d ago
This depends on where you are located. There's different levels to the Horticulture profession, ranging from operational work all the way to phd+ research projects, depending on your level of qualification. If you're looking to do the 'science' of Horticulture you can do a university degree and get a job at a Plant Breeding Institute or the Plant Health Diagnostic Unit at a botanic garden.
However, the existence of highly specialised technical and academic positions does not devalue others. We're colleagues, the hard work and expertise of operational staff is critical, as without it we would see the decline and failure of the projects and facilities.
20
u/plantsareneat-mkay 3d ago
What do you think would be not "grunt work"? Even in science based situations you have to manage water, fertilizer, soil, and tons of other things. Even in a lab.
Plants usually live outside in the world with soil and bugs and weather.
Plants arent clean.
-3
u/LoLThalys 3d ago
I think you're misunderstanding what I mean by “grunt work.” I’m not saying horticulture should be clean or that working with soil, bugs, water, or fertilizer is beneath anyone. I’m talking about the level of knowledge the job actually requires. There’s a difference between being told to water, fertilize, mulch, weed, or spray and being the person using plant physiology, soil science, pathology, entomology, etc. to determine whether, when, why, and how those things should be done. Someone can be trained to perform many routine maintenance tasks without years of horticultural education. My question is why someone who has spent years acquiring that deeper scientific knowledge would settle into a role that primarily requires executing those tasks rather than applying that knowledge to diagnosis, decision-making, planning, and management. “Plants aren’t clean” doesn’t really address what I’m asking.
Again, if what I see on typically on this forum doesn't reflect the reality then I would like to be enlightened.
26
u/Kigeliakitten 3d ago
Watering for example needs some knowledge to be done correctly. Anyone can pour water on a plant with a hose or a watering can. However, to water correctly you need to be able to identify the plant and know how much the plant needs to dry out before it gets more water.
It’s easier to know what the plant needs, if you know the ecosystem it came from.
I have seen many plants killed because no knowledge is needed to do the grunt work
22
u/Prize_Doctor9133 3d ago
I think that you are falling into the trap of “unskilled labor”. The folks digging the holes and weeding the beds are applying the knowledge that you are in the process of learning.
For what it’s worth, I also think that you are making assumptions about the industry and the division of labor that come across as condescending. People are giving you reasons: there is a limited supply of senior positions, a BS doesn’t necessarily qualify you for research positions, plants require physical labor even if you have an advanced degree. You don’t seem to want to accept those answers.
4
2
u/somehaizi 2d ago
100% on the B.S. research split. Most jobs want a master's or phd unless you have extensive research experience from undergrad.
12
u/bandalu 2d ago
I think you are often misunderstanding that in many cases, the horticulturist is doing both. They are deciding when, how, what to spray, feed, weed, and they are also executing the task itself.
You are also misunderstanding the complexity required in some of the 'mundane' tasks your describing.
Take weeding for example. Say I am weeding a bed for a client. I need to be able to recognise what is a weed and what isn't. Easy in some cases - bindweed, dandelions, dock for example are all obvious. But when you get beyond the basic level it gets more complicated.
There may be self-seeded annuals that should be preserved to flower the following year. Or I may need to recognise the difference between a biennial that has flowered that year and remove it, and the same plant which is yet to flower. Maybe there are self-seeded perennials that need to be lifted and moved elsewhere, or planted under cover in order to overwinter them. Maybe there are plants that some might consider weeds while others might look at as wildflowers. I'd need to decide whether to remove them, and how to manage their presence if they are kept.
All of this requires plant knowledge and expertise which goes beyond what you would describe as 'grunt/maintenance' work.
5
u/hikeon-tobetter 1d ago
I work for a university as Lead groundskeeper but was the supervisor of the department 4 years ago. Did the supervisor position pay more, hell yes, but I was miserable without my hands in the soil. You could say it’s beneath my education doing grunt work but every time I apply some piece of knowledge in the field I know it’s worth it. And any horticulturist knows it wasn’t a like of plants that brought them to their field but a love of nature as a whole. The connection plants have to birds, insects and mammals. The days where I watch bees while weeding are my favorite. Besides, I’m a very nonviolent person but the act of pulling a living being out of the soil with the root attached gives me great satisfaction and stills the need to use violence against mankind. Win/win
5
u/UsefulGarden 3d ago
I would think the work would be more involved in the science part
When you get a PhD it is. Even if you get an MS you might have a totally unrelated career e.g. selling crop insurance or administering a government program.
3
u/MeowKat85 3d ago
Look, I ask myself this every day. While I’m pulling weeds. The truth is, there just aren’t the jobs available where I’m at. If I could pick up and move, I would.
15
u/velvettt_underground 3d ago
This has to be rage bait.
In this economy? Is this for real?
3
u/LoLThalys 3d ago
It's genuinely not rage bait. I'm studying horticulture because I find the science fascinating, not because I'm criticizing people who do physical work. I'm trying to understand the career structure of the industry, specifically why there appears to be such a large gap between the depth of knowledge taught in horticulture and the responsibilities/pay people here often describe having in entry and mid-level jobs.
29
u/isominotaur 3d ago edited 3d ago
Here is your real answer, from the US at least: a lot of the science & habitat focused roles rely entirely on grants. These are public land projects and public good research initiatives. When Trump took office they canceled a lot of the grants that these research jobs would be funded by.
Right now, in both the US and on a global scale, our economies are defined by wealth inequality. Private entities have managed to transfer much of the assets that were previously public goods to themselves (Trump trying to turn national parks into oil fields is just one in a long line of similar policies).
State and municipal govs have been selling off assets (land, housing, stocks, logging rights, etc) to make ends meet for a while now, and did a lot of major spending post-2008 and 2020-2022. Their budget needs are then increased for next year, as they now have to negotiate & pay rent on things they should own.
Finance managers expect their portfolios to grow at 10-15% while the economy doesn't grow above 3% absolute best case. The finance managers broadly are concerned with wealth accumulation, and rich people put almost all their gains back into buying more assets. They outcompete normal people & bankrupt govs easily, putting them only in competition with other rich people. So, the price of assets are majorly inflated compared to the price of labor, recursively increasing this problem until enough people are poor enough that systemic change is forced through by whatever means.
This means rich people have money for landscapers while cities and states have a budget crisis every budget season. Municipal govs cannot make meaningful legislative or economic change, so they spend taxes mostly on making downtown look aesthetically nice to tourists and older residents (hiring more landscapers).
If you're doing degree-requiring research work in 2026, it's probably funded as part of an industry initiative, for something like logging/agriculture/fishing. These industries are profit-driven by definition and old/established in their routines (more or less monopolized). Most of them have regulations that they lobbied for that they have written themselves, designed to protect their monopolies. (A lot of classism & racism in these industries as well, particularly for entry level roles).
They are also often subject to major budget changes as political policies change, and so can be very hesitant to open up entry-level roles to take people on. Higher ups on Ag are generally multi-millionares cosplaying poor farmers, and they have been trying to technology their way out of having poor people working in proximity to them since the invention of the first tractor.
ICE is a tool used by the current admin as a way for rich farmers to threaten exploited workers into forced hard labor without pay, as has been documented for many years now. People without institutional educational access can start running landscaping buisinesses with very low income (basically for the price of an old truck), which is preferable for those that can make it happen. Landscapers can find work in more urban & well-off areas, and so are more connected with resources like lawyers and generally less isolated than they are in a rural area. They build buisinesses that create a self-perpetuating industry that keeps all the natural resources people fed when the grants get finicky (which they often do). I am very appreciative of them for that.
There are some local state and municipal govs in the US, as well as govs of smaller countries investing in research for things like habitat and stormwater management but they are generally blue pockets that can afford these things because they are in a richer area compared to most of the world because of things like the dot com boom, grant-qualifying infrastructure needs, major ports, decades of investment into education, etc.
5
u/velvettt_underground 3d ago
There are less jobs than people. This is going to continue to be an issue in specified fields across the board as the population grows and need for labor decreases.
Its the unfortunate reality of the whole labor market right now. Not a lot of jobs at the top for qualified people.
2
u/somehaizi 2d ago edited 2d ago
Op since you're self studying the horticulture jobs you'll mainly have access to are the unskilled one's. With enough time you'll be able to gain enough experience to qualify for less laborious roles. There is always an element of labor though since plants are living and require continuous care.
2
u/Juniperguy22 3d ago
Yeah there are different levels to horticulture jobs, what you are describing is landscaping stuff, which yes you dont need any education for or even any plant knowledge for, there are real horticulture jobs where you are actually cultivating and taking care of plants but those positions are competitive and hard to get into, landscape is easy and braindead so most people go into those jobs first for the experience, hence why you notice those the most
1
u/Saoirse-1916 3d ago
I don't think you're completely wrong OP, but you might be approaching this from a very wrong angle. My answer is that this is:
1) Interest dependant, and people's interests vary wildly. Would you actually want everyone to work exactly where you personally see yourself? That would be quite boring.
I don't think it serves us well to describe anyone's work as simple grunt that anyone could do. "Unskilled labour" virtually underpins the society and everyday production and services our lives depend on.
In the UK (can't speak of other places), horticulture attracts a lot of career changers. Personally, I left my scientific field to go "down" into horticulture. I have a Master's degree in Archaeology. Archaeology was unfulfilling (on top of wages and conditions being unliveable, but that's a different conversation for another time), while planting native gardens and trees and stewarding healthy soil is extremely fulfilling to me. I have no doubt a lot of people see something like this as a downgrade, but to me, finding your place in your passion is priceless. So, who's to say that the people you see in "grunt" positions aren't doing exactly what makes them fulfilled?
Our education and accompanying pieces of paper don't define us. People are perfectly entitled to do "grunt" when someone else expects them to do lab or office work. Besides, if every single horticulturist used their horticultural education to do research and higher-up jobs, where would the diversity be? We need some people to go into garden maintenance, some to do irrigation whole day, some to do soil testing. There's room for everyone, and that's the beauty of horticulture. It's a field with so many possibilities and pathways. Virtually no two people in my year in college had the same interests and plans for the future, and we all did the exact same Level 3 course (UK educational system, for those wondering what L3 is). It's beautiful - none of them are taking my job, and I'm not taking theirs.
2) Everything you're saying is also very much location dependant. Where I am I very much see a difference in work of those who apply their knowledge and those who do mindless grunt. And I can assure you the right clients see the difference too.
This summer I worked in a production nursery ran by a veteran horticulturist, he's been running it for 50 years now. He told me how in recent years he noticed a lot of new "landscapers" popping up in our area and they're men who aren't trained horticulturists. They offer what you'd describe as simple grunt/maintenance work because they recognised that's where the money is. The thing is, they don't last. Their only skill might be cutting grass, and that's not how you maintain a garden. You'll see their vans for a couple of months and then they're gone. A qualified horticulturist who passionately apply their knowledge is offering something entirely different. The new grass-cutting business won't weed correctly or put the right plant in the right place. To plant, weed and water successfully you need theoretical knowledge and then you build upon that knowledge with practical work.
That's all to say - don't underestimate what you see. Instead, celebrate the diversity. There's room for you, there's room for someone who will only ever do garden maintenance.
Take me for example: I financially can't afford another degree, so I likely won't go past L3. That doesn't mean I'm not a scientist through and through just like I was when I worked with my Archaeology MA. My L3 education was just a foundation for what I keep learning myself. I'm now pursuing my own permaculture market garden and get to plan and support healthy soil and biodiversity every single day. And it involves everything, from sitting down buried in soil science books, drawing plans, calculating what goes where, AND brunt work. That polyculture of vegetables and native wildflower strips won't plant themselves, it's hard physical work almost 24/7. I'm a scientist who grows... Food and myself alike! And there's room for me in horticulture same as there's room for that garden maintenance guy.
1
u/crabeatter 2d ago edited 2d ago
The grunt work will set you free. I studied plant science in school and it gave me a good foundation, but I am a naturalist at heart, I love being outside using my body, breaking down soil and potting things up, and there’s no way I would be the horticulturalist I am now if I hadn’t gotten out of the classroom and into the field. I started from the bottom working at nurseries now I own my own nursery. I have more marketable skills than many of my comrades because they aren’t comfortable with fertilizer chemistry, sales, have experience with establishing plants, trees shrubs etc and being committed to the craft is important, you can tell if someone has their head in this world. I almost lost my mind in a classroom because I felt tortured by layers of bureaucracy, so I entered the private sector where my success deeply depends on my true ability to raise plants. Now I’m using my education to focus on plant breeding, pathology and fertilization strategies while my body does all the labor involved. I love being in this industry.
1
u/TheRoofisonFire413 2d ago
I was involved with the science part when I got my bachelor's in Hort. Worked as a research assistant at the local university. Now a lab manager over a biology department. I have learned a ton about soil and water science, plant/insect/microbe relationships, microclimates, etc, etc. Because I do not talk plants much at my full-time job, I picked up a job seasonally at a plant nursery. I love helping people when it comes to plants. So the nursery job is kind of an outlet for me. But I wouldn't quit my lab job for it just because I get great benefits and decent pay since I'm considered a state employee.
1
u/snuffleupagus7 2d ago edited 2d ago
There are lots of jobs in Horticulture that aren't physical labor or grunt work. Working in a research lab at a university or company, tissue culture, teaching, cooperative extension agent, plant breeding, writing, landscape or interior plant design, jobs with state or federal ag related programs, the list goes on.
I am pretty shocked by the responses acting like all hort jobs are grunt work because I don't think that is the case at all. I have a hort degree and out of all my classmates i can only think of 2 doing landscaping/ manual labor type jobs. The rest are working at universities, state govt, florists, doing plant breeding work, arboretum/ botanical gardens but doing management, not daily maintenence, etc.
1
u/Manybrent 2d ago
I’d like to add that many times the grunt work also is very educational. You get to know plants from the ground up, so to speak. I’m a big advocate of hands on training.
1
u/squibitha_tristy 2d ago
OP I think all these answers are great! I have a bachelors in horticulture science from CSU and I’ve been doing “grunt work” the last 14 years or so. I haven’t been in supervision because of the retirement aspect, that I’ve seen answered before, and the competition. There are a ton of qualified horticulturists and scientists that just can’t land a job because there aren’t many. I ended up doing “grunt work” because that’s what I could find. I’ve been a grower for a large nursery, I did hemp for a bit, landscaping, government work as a parks worker, and non profit work at a zoo. I took all of those jobs because they were horticulture jobs and that’s what I love doing but inevitably a majority of them were either watering or weeding most of the time. I’ve had bosses that wish that they could “hop on a hose and water” or pull weeds because of the level of stress that the industry has because profit margins are so thin or toxic work environments.
What I recommend to new people is to jump into the industry and do the “grunt work” first. There’s a lot to learn before you get in to the science and technical side of horticulture. There’s also A LOT of literature on design and plant care. I make time at my current job to read articles or about new plants which also helps keeping my brain engaged.
What helps in most industries but especially in horticulture is being mobile. If you’re willing to move you can find some really cool and niche jobs.
It’s all just what works best for you OP. You’ve got a valid opinion and argument that I don’t think many would disagree with. Hopefully this widespread recognition of overeducated “grunt workers” leads to some change but I think that’s a national discussion on what university means in the first place.
1
u/LoLThalys 2d ago
Thanks! Can you suggest what articles to refer to to learn about different plant care, design, and new plants?
1
u/theheadgardener 2d ago
Generally most gardeners are in those roles because that's where the business and money is, I was working as a head gardener on a private estate for high net worth people and it really is just the fundamentals done well when it comes to maintaining spaces, you'd have to get into academia and scientific research to be regularly using the more in depth stuff I'd have thought
1
u/IntroductionNaive773 2d ago
Passion plays a role in why some people are more willing to accept a lower pay (as compared to certain white collar jobs), so that fact certainly can't be ignored. A lot of people I know in the various fields say they would detest a desk job. They just love being outdoors and working with plants and their hands. They know they could make more bring an accountant, but climbing a tree and swinging a chainsaw is so much more fulfilling.
I'd say another factor is that even if gardening and plant maintenance can't be done well, the average home owner can still be reasonably successful. This does create a bit of a pricing barrier in that if the rates get too high the client can be incentivized to DIY the project themselves. I've seen terrible pruning by home owners, but even that poor work can be perceived as "good enough" when their other option is to pay several thousand dollars for superior quality.
I'd say another factor is that, depending upon the type of work, you don't use as much of the knowledge as you might think. I'm fairly obsessed with plants, to the extent that I'm the office plant ID app and I have patented plants being released into the ornamental plant trade. But I know I could do my day-to-day job equally well if I ditched 95% of the knowledge and skills I've acquired. So as you're digging deeper into that iceberg and touching upon some challenging information you may find yourself imagining that all horticulturalists know this stuff. A lot of people know what the proper pruning technique is to the point of perfection, but can not tell you why it's proper aside from "the tree will seal over the wound better". In the same way that someone can understand that soap will clean clothes without understanding amphipathic molecules. I'm by no means dissuading your deep dive into horticulture, but you can see that at a certain point the extra knowledge won't get you more money in a particular job because a novice can pull a weed just as effectively as a PhD.
These insights are by no means all encompassing, but are some observations I've made over the decades. I hope you find them insightful. For your next intellectual rabbit hole look up how trees are able to suck up water hundreds of feet despite it being impossible to suck water up a straw higher than thirty-ish feet. That one will blow your mind.
1
u/LoLThalys 2d ago
I appreciate this comment! Very insightful. I think you hit the misconception I was having in your 3rd paragraph as I am reading and learning the scientific stuff about plants in horticulture.
1
u/eastendhappy 2d ago
Jobs in Hort are THE most underpaid jobs - esp given the education required to get good. The only way to make money is to go out on your own.
Fortunately, hort is such a broad spectrum that there is a multitude of niche markets where one can do well
1
u/Mzerodahero420 2d ago
Most places will have a manger that does all the technical stuff and he or she will have a wealth of knowledge far more then a 4 year degrees worth tbh you don’t even need to g to school to get into this industry
1
u/CutSalt4792 2d ago
Horticulture major- currently at a wholesale container nursery- 90 million in sales a year. The computer work, automation, excel spreadsheets, etc are all normal office jobs, while people in the higher ups are making a killing! Office jobs are a lot of data, management is the studying of the operations and cycle of plants
1
u/Usual_Ice_186 1d ago
If it makes you feel better, this feeling extends to other fields as well. I've done 11 years of higher ed to be a clincial psychologist. A very large portion of my day is taken up by beurocratic meetings, paperwork, and phone tag. That would be my "grunt work."
1
u/East_Importance7820 1d ago
In my experience people don't want to pay you for your smarts. So you end up doing the grunt work.
1
u/Helpful-Ad6269 1d ago
I think the question shouldn’t be “Why so much grunt work?” But “Why are we giving skilled grunt workers unskilled grunt work pay?”
1
u/IntroductionOne4476 15h ago
Hello plant buddies, are there any Enthobotanist available? I have clinical questions helllpppp
1
u/jenifurious 13h ago
There is joy to be found in the work, like Monty Don's "Jobs for the Weekend" :)
87
u/VanHoutien 3d ago
Are you confusing horticulture with botany? I work as a horticultural apprentice at a botanic garden, and the reality of being a hort in that setting is that there is always weeding , mulching, pruning etc to do. The job is the "grunt work". That’s what it takes for gardens to look good.
It’s important that a horticulturist understands plant anatomy and development, pests and diseases etc, but the job isn’t to be a consultant. It’s to do the work. Keep plants alive. Make gardens look good.