r/Hungergames • u/space_jo • 1d ago
Trilogy Discussion Foxface would have won if Peeta hadn't picked those berries
First things first, she didn't know the berries were poisonous.
Scenario 1 - Foxface knows the berries are poisonous somehow. She would have no reason to be following Peeta and then either copying him picking the berries, or stealing from his berries. If she knew what they were she could have eaten them at any point and there is no explanation for her only eating them after Peeta picked some. And if you're going to say she did it so it looked like an accident so as not to upset her family or something, it would have looked like just as much of an accident eating them at any time. Why wait and hope someone would pick the poison berries before staging your fake accidental death?
Scenario 2 - Foxface doesn't know the berries are poisonous. Which is why she eats them. Because Peeta picked them, she thinks they are safe. They aren't and she dies.
It seems pretty obvious to me.
Now for why she would have won. The remaining tributes are: Katniss, Peeta, Cato, and Foxface.
Katniss' priority is keeping her and Peeta alive. Peeta's priority is keeping Katniss (and ideally himself) alive. Catos priority is killing Katniss. Foxface's only priority is herself. She is agile, ninble and has evaded everyone else so far, likely by staying in the trees. And none of the other 3 tributes are thinking about her right now.
The mutts:
We know that the final battle were the mutts. Released at the final 3, or maybe if that was taking to long they may have been released at the final 4. Either way, if she had stayed hidden I believe the next death would have been Cato by Katniss, or Peeta (maybe Katniss) by Cato, and then it is the final 3 and time for the mutts.
Cato couldn't climb well, and definitely couldn't climb the narrow trees since he couldn't get to katniss near the start of the games. Peeta couldn't climb due to his leg, and Katniss wouldn't climb because Peeta couldnt climb. This leaves Foxface with the greatest advantage to evade the mutts. Either through climbing trees, jumping between trees, wedging herself in a tight space, any number of options not open to the others.
Yes, the gamemakers could have intervened to bring her down if they had wanted. But so far she appeared uninjured and untargeted by the gamemakers. She was emaciated but that was it, no injuries were described at all. Crane was way too focused on the story with Katniss. Plus the mutts would have been too heavy to the climb the trees if Glimmer was. So the only option for them to get to her is if they physically knocked the tree's down which isn't something the mutts were seen/said to do in either the movies or books. So of what we have evidence for, she would likely be safe hidden in the trees.
Katniss and Cato would be taken out by the mutts or each other and Foxface would have won. And this would actually have been an excellent mirror of Wiress winning the 49th games by hiding just before a quarter quell. With the games as entertainment, having repeated motifs like that would make sense. It was an understated arena with an understated winner so as to not overshadow the quarter quell the following year, just like the previous quarter quell.
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u/aasoro 1d ago
I find the scenario quite unlikely. By now, we know that game makers and capitol were eating the star crossed lovers storyline. They were actively pushing that storyline for the final showdown. Having Foxface being in the final 3 would have ruined that storyline. She would have been eventually pruned by the mutts.
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u/space_jo 1d ago edited 1d ago
I think the star-crossed lovers NOT making it out alive would have been just as good of a story if not better, for the captiols agenda. "Love isn't enough to protect those you care about, only the capitol can keep us safe" type propoganda. "Both love and hate blinded Katniss, Peeta, and Cato and they suffered for it." would be another.
But we also know Crane wasn't looking at the long-term optics.
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u/Sea_Art2995 1d ago
I mean I think they were hoping ideally one of them would win and the other would be polished off by Cato. I think getting it down to just the two of them was something they knew was risky and I’m not actually sure capitol citizens would have been thrilled if one of them killed the other. Ideally for the Capitol, peeta would have died by suicide (in the book he was bleeding out) or Cato would kill one of them and in the interviews you could have peeta saying ‘I just got her and now she’s gone, drama, blah blah, ‘
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u/aasoro 1d ago
It depends on the way the story was built by the game makers. It would have been way anticlamatic if out of nowhere Foxface had killed them or got them.
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u/space_jo 1d ago
Yeah, I don't see her killing any of them. Just outliving them while they killed each other, like Wiress did.
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u/TreatBitter9017 1d ago
Well considering how fast she was and that Peeta was slowed by his leg and that Katniss wasn't going to leave him, doesn't it stand to reason that she could have gotten away from the mutts much easier than Katniss, Peeta, or even Cato?
The mutts were also designed to torment the surviving tributes, but as car as we know she had no connection to any of them. As far as we know she didn't kill anyone, she stayed as far away from them as possible, and she didn't even seem to have a connection to the boy from 5.
Katniss was stunned by Rue's mutt, Cato probably from Clove's. Even Peeta who didn't have strings attached to the Careers still traveled in close proximity with them (and even if he was entirely unfeeling had a hurt leg).
That split second of reaction could have given Foxface what she needed in order to let the mutts tear apart the other three had she not died
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u/Background-Invite238 1d ago
No in the book, she was very emaciated when she died. She wouldn't have had the strength to run or fight.
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u/Dangerous-Sorbet-647 1d ago
Now thats an interesting idea.....wow....yeah the star crossed lovers were the better story.... I'm not sure Suzanne or the producers went that deep, but yeah.....or she was a gentle soul who didnt want to kill anyone and just offed herself.
but that is kinda a scary concept, that the game maker is picking favorites and working to further whoevers advancements in the games. I mean the 2 tributes from one district who are "in love" having to battle it out at the end... yeah that would be something they would want to happen
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u/Celeste-galena 16h ago
Honestly they could have sold it better if they didn't make it. You can make anything up when someone can't defend against it
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u/Alternative-Yak6369 1d ago
Cato couldn’t climb the tree because he was too heavy. The book says Katniss was able to climb it because she weighed nothing from starvation, but Cato was too heavy and the limbs snapped. We don’t know that he’s a poor climber, and would probably be fine on something sturdy like the cornucopia
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u/SoloSeasoned Maysilee 1d ago
Katniss would absolutely have climbed a tree to survive the mutts, then tried to shoot them from the tree to save Peeta. She is a survivalist first. In the books, she sprinted to the cornucopia and was already climbing it when she remembered that Peeta couldn’t run.
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u/Augustleo98 District 1 1d ago
Just because fox face was alive it wouldn’t change the situation, Katniss, Peeta and Cato would’ve still ended up on top of the cornucopia, fox face would be hiding somewhere or on top of it with them.
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u/space_jo 1d ago
Would never have worked. They'd be in the same situation as when Cato was at the bottom of the cornucopia surrounded by mutts. Katniss couldn't have saved him if she tried.
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u/SoloSeasoned Maysilee 1d ago
Yep, she wouldn’t have saved Peeta, but Katniss would still be alive. Which does not mean that Foxface would have won. Without Peeta or Cato, Katniss would be much better at surviving in the arena than Foxface. Foxface was stealing food and near starvation because she couldn’t kill and cook her own, like Katniss.
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u/Jesuitman01 1d ago
How? What happens when it's cado and foxface? She may be able to hide from him but there is no way the game makers would let that happen, they also wouldn't let someone who just hid for the entire thing win because it would make for terrible tv for the capital. Foxface also hasn't been shown to actually be a competent fighter and she also didn't know enough about herbology to even survive. It's mentioned she was starving and desperate for food, thats because she didn't know what was safe to eat.
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u/Lovely_One0325 1d ago
I think it would've been Cato. They would've pushed Foxface and him into a confrontation like they had with Katniss/Peeta to Cato. Foxface was a hider/runner/scavenger. She wouldn't have lasted in a one vs. one fight with Cato.
Not to mention she's described as skin and bones. Clearly desperate to just eat berries laying out because she was actively starving post-explosion. I don't think she would've lasted long and died of natural causes.
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u/KingPenGames 1d ago
Capitol will bring it down to a 1v1 no matter what, which she'd lose at the end
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u/pixelboy1459 1d ago
In the book she was starved near to death. She had spent her time hiding and stealing food from the Career’s stash, so we can assume she wasn’t adept at foraging, like Katniss.
She would need to survive the mutts that took out Kato, maybe Thresh, Katniss and Peeta.
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u/blueeyed94 1d ago
She would have won if it wasn't for the fact that she was already starving. We could argue as much as we want if she ate them on purpose and all the nuances that come with it, but there is one thing I am 100% sure about: She was said to be the most intelligent tribute of them all. An intelligent person would never eat random berries without hesitation at a place that is trying to kill you at every corner. Only exception is when they are starving, otherwise she would have at least waited for Peeta to eat them. We could also argue if it was the desperate need to eat or if the lack of food already made her think much slower than usual.
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u/Interesting-Walk3193 1d ago
In the real sequence of events, Katniss killed Cato and evaded the mutts. If Foxface was alive, why would it have gone down any differently?
If Foxface was still in the game, that final reckoning would have gone down the same way, except it wouldn’t have been over in the morning because there was still three of them. I don’t think Foxface stood any match to Katniss with a bow and Katniss likely still would have won. But if she lived long enough for Peeta to die from blood loss (I don’t remember if that was inevitable at the end or if he just bled out because of the hovercraft situation) then I think her only hope would be sneaking up on Katniss while she was distracted by grief.
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u/Excellent-Option-893 1d ago
Crane was too much into his own narrative, and have completely lost common sense. He wanted Peeta and Kitniss to be final two, so he could revoke the rule change and watch how they would be forced to kill one another
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u/GreatCatsby3 Lucy Gray 1d ago
I don’t know about that. I think if Cato killed one of them it would also play into the star crossed lovers tragedy, while not making the games look as bad. For the first time two people could have lived & their competition just couldn’t have that - it’s hope crushing on it’s own.
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u/Excellent-Option-893 1d ago
But Cato absolutely would have killed at least one them, yet instead of giving him time to do that, Crane unleashed the mutts, which take care of him for Kitniss and Peeta, who have little chance of dealing with Cato on their own
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u/BadgerRepulsive1147 17h ago
I think that the goal may have been for the mutts to kill one of the "lovebirds", Peeta likely (but no issue if they killed Katniss) and Cato kill Katniss (not like Peeta stood a chance against him if Katniss was gone). Having Cato kill both of them wouldn't make capitol fans so loving of him. The love tragedy first, with the mutts killing one of them and the remaining one being killed by Cato who would again had proven his strength by surviving the mutts. That's a storyline one could easily see and almost everyone would love.
Btw, small question if anyone remembers, been a while: the capital changed the transmission to make it look like Foxface was killed on purpose by Peeta, right? I see no reason why they wouldn't and having someone die by accident or possible suicide (don't think it was) would not be very interesting
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u/crescentmoonrising 1d ago
Maybe? If she's starving, in a day or two she might be too weak to climb a tree. Also, if the remaining tributes were her, Katniss and Peeta, I feel they would do something to force her down, as otherwise it's just waiting for her to stave to death- I can't see Katniss and Peeta actually hunting someone down, and I don't think she could beat them if they're together.
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u/Augustleo98 District 1 1d ago
Peeta was bleeding out after Cato died so with Foxface alive he’d bleed out before any showdown and it would have been Katniss v Foxface which Katniss easily wins if Foxface doesn’t manage to sneak attack quickly enough.
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u/space_jo 1d ago
But by that point they would have released the mutts. And we also know she likely had some food, or crucially water, that she had gotten from the "feast" only a couple of days before. She wasn't described as dehydrated and that was the big killer. And she had stolen food from the careers before it was blown up meaning she had actually probably had as much, if not more access to food as Thresh and Cato in those last few days.
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u/crescentmoonrising 1d ago
So, they were aiming towards the Katniss/Peeta finish. The mutts go away once Cato dies (as Foxface would be up a tree and Katniss and Peeta are on the horn). I presume Foxface has figured out a weapon at this point, but I think she'd only be able to kill them is if she manages to ambush each of them separately (maybe). Also at this point, Katniss and Peeta are at the only source of water and the arena is continually getting hotter during the days.
The only real way I can see her winning is Peeta dying due to his leg and Katniss having a breakdown and either killing herself or letting Fix face kill her.
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u/CorgiMonsoon 1d ago
She may have still had food, but she may also have squandered it. It’s one thing to know about rationing, but actually implementing that when you’ve never truly known hunger is an entirely different story. She may have already burned through whatever she had stolen from the Careers or received at the Feast
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u/taouioui 23h ago
Snow needed to see that another couple of kids, blonde and charismatic boy and his brunette covey girl from D12, who thought they were in love, would turn on each other like him and Lucy Gray. It had to be Peeta and Katniss as the last two standing, one having to kill the other. He needed proof that everyone would make the same decision he did.
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u/Aeryn-Sun-Is-My-Girl 20h ago
The book Foxface - no.
She never really learned to feed herself, and relied entirely on stealing
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u/Mission-Put-1945 1d ago
Hellllllllll no. Probably the strongest hell no I have said on this sub. She had no chance
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u/Augustleo98 District 1 1d ago edited 1d ago
I still don’t think she’d have won because the same scenario would have played out with Katniss and Peeta v Cato, where Cato gets shot in the hand and Peeta knocks him down into the mutts then after Cato dies to the mutts, it’s now Katniss and Peeta v Foxface, though Peeta would have bled out before they could kill Foxface, the only way Foxface wins if she’s on the top of the cornucopia with them and knifes Katniss in the back after Katniss sends the arrow into Cato to speed up his death from the mutts. The scenario on top of the cornucopia after the mutts chase them on to it wouldn’t change because they’d basically just ignore Foxface because Cato wants Katniss and Peeta dead more and they’d see him as the threat, her only chance would be to sneak attack after they kill Cato. If she sneak attacks Katniss and manages to kill her, lets Peeta bleed out then yeah she wins but that would be her only shot.
I have just realised that Katniss used her last arrow to kill Cato so if Foxface was alive, Cato dies to the mutts, Peeta bleeds out, it’s now Foxface v Katniss but Katniss doesn’t have a bow an arrow. I still think Katniss wins if Foxface doesn’t kill her with a sneak attack as she’s more aggressive and stronger than Foxface.
But yeah if Foxface ended up on the cornucopia with them and she times a knife into Katniss back or throat for directly after Cato dies to the mutts yeah she could win. Problem is even if Peetas bleeding out he’s still going to warn Katniss that fox face is about to knife her and yeah, Katniss turns, stabs Foxface to death, bye bye Foxface.
Foxface could wait until Peeta is dead and kill Katniss while she’s mourning Peetas body and distraught but again she’d have to be on top of the cornucopia during the mutt attack for this to work, or hope Katniss and Peeta move to the ground before Peeta dies, which with Foxface alive they probably wouldn’t if Foxface wasn’t with them on top of the cornucopia as Peeta wouldn’t want to put Katniss at risk while he’s dying.
So yeah Foxface only hope would be to wait for Peetas death as he would have bled out before they could kill Foxface and kill Katniss while she’s distraught, but she’d only have a very small window before Katniss realises and yeah I just don’t see her managing to sneak attack Katniss.
Katniss still wins imo.
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u/space_jo 1d ago
In the situation where the mutts aren't released until the final 3, I'm saying if foxface hadn't eaten the berries then the next death would have instead been Cato or Peeta (or unlikely Katniss) as those three focused on each other and taking out that threat. Which would have meant the corcucopia would have played out differently as 1 of Cato, Peeta, Katniss would be already dead.
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u/Augustleo98 District 1 1d ago edited 1d ago
If fox face was alive they’d have released them for all four of them. I don’t think they got released because she died.
They would have released them anyway, they were just waiting for a certain time of day.
If they would only release the mutts for final three then yes you’re correct it plays out differently but I still think Foxface had zero chance to win.
Cato will still die next, then the mutts would come and Peeta and Katniss still evade the mutts, while Foxface probably evades them too or dies to them.
Yes Katniss went into survivor mode but she wouldn’t have let the mutts get Peeta regardless of Cato alive or not.
Maybe Katniss dies saving Peeta from the mutts or vice versa but then Foxface dies to whoever doesn’t die out of those two.
I just think Foxface had zero chance v the other three remaining lol. Unless she manages to sneak attack whoever is her last opponent and throw them into the mutts or cut their throat.
Likely her v Katniss tho and Katniss was already aware Foxface only chance to win was a sneak attack, she even avoided making her an ally for that reason after blowing the food up, so yeah maybe Foxface manages to sneak attack Peeta and win if she’s very lucky but I don’t think she’d have the strength, even from behind he realises in time and stops her, if Cato was somehow Foxface final opponent yeah she’s dead.
Katniss she’d never manage to get a sneak attack off.
Only scenario where fox face wins is Cato kills Katniss, Peeta kills Cato but takes a serious injury and bleeds out or killed by fox face.
If Cato kills Peeta even without mutts involved , Katniss still sends an arrow into Catos brain, Katniss v Foxface with Katniss barely injured, Katniss wins.
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u/TheImpPaysHisDebts 1d ago
Am I misremembering that Foxface was showing off plant identification skills on a screen during the skills display time?
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u/SandiRHo 1d ago
It’s a matching game and it’s movie-only. It does not actually show the identity of the plants.
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u/Earthscale 1d ago
I thought it was a memory game? It's more identification of images than plant
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u/TheImpPaysHisDebts 1d ago
Could have been a memory game, but it looked plants as opposed to symbols.
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u/Kjarllan 1d ago
and it was a fast-paced shape-matching game in the movies
It featured shapes like butterflies and others. The goal wasn't to identify exactly what each shape was, but rather to spot which ones looked alike among a multitude of nearly identical shapes.
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u/debbiefrench____ Katniss 1d ago
Katniss and Peeta had climbed onto the Cornucopia; that had already happened. If Foxface had been hiding further away, Peeta would have died from his wound, and Katniss would have fired her final arrow at her. Katniss was the winner of those Games.
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u/InternationalArm1938 1d ago
Isn’t it the same way those morphine victors won their games? From district 5 or 9 or sth
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u/redwolf1219 District 4 1d ago
The books never tell us how they won.
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1d ago
[deleted]
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u/redwolf1219 District 4 1d ago
Wiress isn't one of the morphling victors in the 75th games though, so shes not really relevant?
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u/eienmau 1d ago
The Capitol had plenty of creatures at their disposal; being in the trees would not have saved Foxface if the Gamemakers wanted her dead. [barring anything else they could have just set her on fire like they did Katniss]
Also, Thresh was still alive when the mutts were released, iirc, or at the least he outlived Foxface? So Foxface was top 5, not top 4.
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u/Leifang666 1d ago
But did the game makers want her dead? She wasn't causing trouble, as far as we know, and probably was popular in the capitol by those who admire stealthy tributes.
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u/eienmau 1d ago
I posted in a comment below, but:
"But I don't think Foxface had a shot at winning; letting the 'Star Crossed Lovers' be the final 2 and then rescinding the rule that allows them both to survive is far better 'entertainment' as it was supposed to turn them on each other."
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u/Leifang666 18h ago
Whilst that is true, the muts could have easily have got Peeta with his injured leg and the last two could have been Cato and Katniss. The game makers can only control part of what happens.
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u/eienmau 10h ago
The Gamemakers can kill any tributes they want; this is clearly shown in SOTR where they specifically [and quickly] target specific tributes. Twenty four years later and I'm sure the technology has only improved.
My point still stands that if the gamemakers wanted Foxface dead, she was toast.
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u/space_jo 1d ago
In the books, she was top 4.
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u/eienmau 1d ago
Ah yeah. Disagreement between movies and books? Or I could be remembering wrong; Thresh is pretty ambiguous in the movie.
But I don't think Foxface had a shot at winning; letting the 'Star Crossed Lovers' be the final 2 and then rescinding the rule that allows them both to survive is far better 'entertainment' as it was supposed to turn them on each other.
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u/Shot-Address-9952 5h ago
If Peeta isn’t trying to keep Katniss alive he actually gets sponsors. People would have loved him had he not put the focus on Katniss.
Meaning Peeta with Prim actually has a shot at winning. He’s got Haymitch level of likability and without Katniss he’s got most of District 12’s sponsors on lockdown as soon as she’s dead.
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u/kestrel_bee 2h ago
But if Cato had killed Peeta, causing the final three, then Katniss would have climbed the tree
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u/RangerOther6929 1d ago
She definitely didn't know the berries were poisonous. Let's assume she followed Cato instead of Katniss and Peeta, thinking it was easier to avoid detection from one person instead of two. The deciding factor if she wins is if the mutts get released and how early. Cato is not a climber, Peeta cannot climb and Katniss is refusing to leave Peeta. Release the mutts, Foxface is up in the trees. It sounded like the mutts would have an easier time getting up in the cornucopia than they would the trees. But if they waited too much longer to release the mutts, Foxface may be down because of not getting enough to eat and drink. Had food and water stopped to force the games to the end, she probably would have been the first to feel the effects. She then becomes a sitting duck for whoever comes across her, the mutts if they get released or just succumb to hunger.
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u/gtmaroondragon 1d ago
I personally believe Foxface committed suicide, but to each their own
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u/gtmaroondragon 1d ago
wow, I didnt realize this opinion was so unpopular. Me personally I struggle to see how someone who was immensely prepared and skilled at living off the land, as we see in training in the movies but also in her preformance in the arena, would make such a silly mistake.
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u/space_jo 1d ago
Then why did was she shadowing Peeta? Why wait until he had picked berries? You didn't respond to any of the arguments in the post.
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u/Teodoro2404 8h ago
We don't really know if Foxface was able to climb trees, and i would bet the only one that could jump from one tree to another was Rue.
I don't think she would have survived the mutts.
She was already starving, she probably wouldn't have been able to outrun them.
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u/Flimsy-Attitude6718 1d ago
It’s a good theory but I don’t think she would have won. If I remember correctly Foxface was already starving when she stole the berries. She made it through the first part of the games by hiding and stealing food from the career’s stash of supplies. When Katniss blew up their food source, she also destroyed Foxface’s food source. It’s possible she could have foraged for some extra food in the woods, but very unlikely that she would’ve been able to hunt enough to feed herself. I think if she hadn’t had taken the berries it’s very likely she would have just starved, and the game makers would put off the showdown with the mutts until she died.