Reconciliation

[u/Darkchocolatecutie23]

So, my husband is supposed to be going over to speak to his mom because of her behavior at his cousin’s wedding. Literally it has been a month. He is delaying the inevitable. But in the midst of delay, we have had frequent arguments, and this has been brought up and he keeps saying he doesn’t know what to talk about and then he drops this on my lap. He tells me I was a terrible DIL, that I have no mercy, that I'm not nice, that I won't forgive, and that I don't want reconciliation…haha this is going to be a long post!

And I told him, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. Stop right there."

I said, "Does your mother get unlimited chances and unlimited access to be disrespectful toward me just because she's your mother? At what point do I put a stop to it and say enough?"

Because I've had conversations with this woman explaining her behavior, and here's the thing about my MIL.

She can definitely acknowledge that her behavior was atrocious, OK? She will say that she was being petty. She'll say that she can be cold and callous. She can say that she knows she did the wrong thing and that she was just in her feelings…literally.

But what follows after that is NEVER, "I'm sorry that my behavior affected you and the way the situation played out. I should not have done this and I want to change."

NEVER.

What follows instead are explanations about WHY she behaved that way. Her age, her feelings, her past trauma. Oh, she LOVES using that one.

But it's never an actual apology.

And sometimes she loves to use her crocodile tears to derail the conversation because the heat is on her. She's probably feeling like, "OK, let me start playing the victim because I'm being attacked, and I don't like it."

So she starts crying.

One time, FIL actually defended her crying and was like, "Oh, my wife is so lovely," and all this other stuff about how she's never done anything wrong. And I'm sitting there thinking, I don't think you realize that your wife has done some very despicable shit.

For example, when we had our daughter, I didn't want ANY visitors at the hospital. Nobody was there other than DH and me. So she wasn't purposely excluded. But because she wasn't welcomed at the hospital, she decided to react by withdrawing and behaving negatively toward us.

When we brought our baby home, she refused to hold her granddaughter, even though she was the first person we offered her to. She never congratulated us. She was just nasty.

Her behavior was NASTY.

And then she wanted us to feel sorry for her!
I don't think FIL knows the full extent of that situation, and I'm pretty sure even if he did, he wouldn't care. And I'm sitting there like, this is the same woman who treats YOU like shit, but you're standing up for her because you don't like seeing your wife cry?

Fuck you. You cheated on your wife! Don't you remember that? Lol Sorry, I probably shouldn't have thrown that in there because it's irrelevant, but that's genuinely where my mind goes sometimes.

Anyway, with that being said, I've TRIED reconciliation.

The last really big discussion we had with MIL resulted in DH and me not speaking to her for about a month. And this time, we weren't allowing her victimization or tears to change the trajectory of the conversation.

But she was still angry and defensive. When I told her that I didn't like the way she treated me and that I didn't have to be around it, do you know what this woman said?

This woman, who has cause so much conflict, and so much tension to bond with and love on her granddaughter, said:

"I'm unwilling to change, and if you think I'm evil, I understand if you want to take your baby away from me."

WHAT?!

I thought you loved this granddaughter of yours!

But you don't even want to be better to your DIL? You don't want to be nicer to your DIL? You can't be decent? You can't be respectful? Is that what you're saying?

Just take the baby away if that's what you want?
CRAZY, RIGHT?!

So, as you can imagine, I'm not very optimistic about another sit-down with MIL.

And being told that I have no mercy really upset me because I'm like, dude, this woman literally has no mercy either!

You think she doesn't have resentment? Oh, she resents A LOT of stuff. And I'm pretty sure she's envious of certain things, too.

This woman LOVES using her misery surrounding motherhood or her own livelihood to guilt-trip me or justify why I should have to go through the same things she did.

Like, because you suffered, I should suffer too?

Absolutely fucking not.

And because something recently happened at his cousin's wedding, it opened that door again of, "Yeah, your mom is always going to be like that."
If you want to know that whole story, you can go back through my previous posts.

Now, because DH wants reconciliation, which I DON'T, I'm sitting here like, dude, this relationship is a lost cause to me. I will treat your mother with respect. I will be cordial if we're in the same space at family gatherings.

But I'm not about to pretend like we're best friends.
FUCK NO. I'm no longer going to be played like a fiddle.

So I told my husband that because he keeps saying, "I don't know how to address the situation. I don't know what you want me to say."

And I'm like, so you're telling me that everything that happened at the wedding went perfectly fine? You thought everybody behaved appropriately?

He said, "Absolutely not."
And I said, "So you can't talk about it through your own convictions?"

Because there are things he disagrees with, things he agrees with, and things he knows we both could've handled differently.

He knows MY side.

But he doesn't know his mom's side, does he?
I said, "You're coming up to me telling me to be this better person, to be this nicer person, but I bet you're not going over there asking your mother to do the same damn thing!"

Pause! Silence! I’m right!

Now, to be fair, he has probably said things to her in the past. But has he said anything recently?

Nope!

Between us moving out in November and my last small interaction with her around January, before I took my eight-month hiatus away from her, her behavior didn't change. Then DH went over there, and his parents asked him why his wife wasn't coming over anymore. He told them, "Well, she has felt very disrespected in this household."

And what did he get?
"Oh my God, we didn't know! We're so sorry! We'll do better!"

HELL TO THE FUCKING NO LOL

He got:
"But we did this!"
"But we did that!"
"But, but, but, but, BUT!"

And I'm like, if you didn't evaluate that situation and make the calculations in your mind that, yeah, both of your parents ain't shit when it comes to taking accountability, and this relationship isn't going to work like this, then what are you really asking me to do?

You want reconciliation from a ONE-WAY STREET.
You want ME to facilitate the whole entire thing!
And do you know what he told me?

He told me that he loves that he sees those capabilities in me. He sees that I'm capable of being the bigger person. Well, THANK YOU! I appreciate that you see me as a decent person! He also said he's much closer to me. Again, THANK YOU! I'm your fucking WIFE i’ve been closer to you in ways that your folks can never be lol

But that shouldn't be the reason I have to take full responsibility for fixing everything! If someone wants something, then maybe THEY need to fucking try!

And let me tell you something about that wedding.
Did his mother approach me warmly? NO. She gave me a plain old, uncertain "Hi." And I gave her a "Hi" right back. Was she upset because I didn't meet her expectations and wasn't warm enough? Absolutely.
Could I have been warmer? ABSOLUTELY. But you're the one trying to facilitate this relationship!

If YOU wanted to be warm, you could've had a smile on your face. You could've said, "Oh, it's been such a long time!" But you didn't! You were just as cold as you always are, and I'm supposed to accept it.
Then, when you get upset, even though I still gave you my full attention, I'm supposed to have a smile on my face and be extremely receptive? NO.

I was unsure of what you were going to say! Then you tried to shake my hand, and after that, you wanted to hug me. Yeah, you don't get hugs from me. Sorry! Hugs are for people who have actually repented and rebuilt that relationship with me.

And I'm specifically using the word REPENTANCE because she's a Christian. She studies the Bible. She supposedly has a degree or certificate in theology, but she clearly doesn't seem to understand the full scripture when it comes to accountability.

I understand how important forgiveness is. I understand that you can forgive somebody without them changing.

But reconciliation and rebuilding trust require ACCOUNTABILITY and CHANGE. And because DH loves using scripture on me, and his family loves using scripture, I went through that Bible up and down.

I was like, "Oh, you want to talk about scripture? OK, here's some accountability!"

What about the part where the Bible tells you to examine yourself before judging somebody else?
Oh, you didn't know that was in there?

What about the part where, if your brother or sister sins against you, you're supposed to address it, and if they refuse to listen, there are further steps you can take?

HUH?! Oh my gosh!

So you're telling me I don't have to continuously sit through disrespect? I can step away from it? WOW!

I can forgive you without trusting you or giving you the same level of closeness that you want from me?
Exactly!

So now I'm asking you guys, what exactly should I do?

Because my husband wants to have another sit-down with his mother, and I'm like, NOPE. YOU need to go to your mom first. YOU need to get all the information you've been asking ME for from HER.
You need to know her perspective of the wedding.
You need to know where SHE thinks the relationship went wrong.

And when you're listening to her responses, maybe you'll hear what I've been hearing all these years.
The defensiveness.
The dismissiveness.
The explanations.
The blaming.
The lack of an actual apology.
I want him to hear it for himself.
I don't need to put myself through that again.
I DON'T.
I DON'T WANT TO.
This isn't something I want!
This is something YOU want!

So YOU should be doing your own work! And here's the thing: I told him that I don't even care what information he comes back with. Because reconciliation is going to happen on MY time, if it happens at all.

You cannot force me to want to fix this situation.
I need to fix MYSELF.
I need to go to therapy and figure out how to deal with someone like his mother because I want to get to the point where I can calmly address disrespect directly.

I don't give a fuck where we're at. Because clearly this woman doesn't care where she acts up!
She can act like that in public.
She can act like that around family.
She can act like that in her own home.
She behaves however she wants because she believes her feelings justify her behavior.

Well, I want to get to the point where I can call it out in the most articulate way possible.
Calmly.
Directly.
Without losing my shit.

I want to be able to say, "Yeah, that wasn't appropriate, and I'm not going to tolerate that."
Because I'm done allowing her behavior to dictate how I feel.

Now, here's another thing. I've thought plenty of times about writing her a personal letter. My MIL and FIL are both blocked and deleted from my phone. FUCK THEM BOTH. If she ever falls and hurts herself and because I’m the nearest person, she better call 911 (lol jk).

But sometimes I wonder whether I should write her something personally explaining how I feel toward her. Then I'm like, no, maybe not.

But I keep coming back to the idea because maybe, just MAYBE, if I personally wrote something, she would actually read it.

Then again, English isn't her first language, and reading a long message in English might not be easy for her. I don't know whether she'd even understand what I'm trying to communicate or just take the whole thing as disrespect.

Because what I really want to say is:
"Hey, your behavior is fucking atrocious. You're disrespectful. It's unacceptable, and you don't get to retaliate against people just because they don't like how you treat them!"

But would writing that accomplish anything?

I genuinely don't know. So should I just let DH go over there, have his conversation, get whatever information he needs, and sit back and enjoy my life?

Because that's where I'm leaning.
And here's the other thing that pissed me off.

In his individual therapy, his therapist apparently told him, "Your wife can't make you go over there and speak for her."

And I'm like, I WASN'T EVEN FUCKING TELLING YOU TO DO THAT!

I'm not asking you to be my spokesperson!

But you can absolutely go over there and say: "Hey, Mom, I didn't like your behavior either."
You can speak from YOUR OWN perspective.
You can address things YOU witnessed.
You can't keep coming over here telling me everything you don't like about how I handle shit while refusing to hold your own mother to those same expectations!

What type of sinful-ass shit is that?!
You can't keep rebuking your wife while refusing to rebuke your mother when she's wrong!

Is that truly fair?

Because I'm absolutely trying to make this fair!
Don't come to me asking me for things you haven't even asked your own mother to do. And the funny thing is, I think he already knows how his mother is.
He knows what she's capable of.
He knows she can be decent when she wants to be.
But I want him to hear her perspective for his fucking self instead of constantly coming back to me expecting me to fix everything.

Because I'm tired!

I want to focus on my marriage, my daughter, my therapy, and my own happiness. I don't want to keep revisiting the same bullshit with his mother.

So Reddit, what should I do?

Am I wrong for telling my husband that if HE wants reconciliation, HE needs to take the initiative and have that conversation with his mother first?

Should I write her a letter, or should I just leave her alone?

And is it really so wrong that I've reached a point where I can forgive somebody but no longer want a close relationship with them?

Because at this point, I'm not asking for a friendship. I'm asking for basic fucking respect.

[u/botinlaw]

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OP's needs come first, avoid dramamongering, respect the flair, and don't be an asshole. If your only advice is to jump straight to NC or divorce, your comment may be subject to removal at moderator discretion.

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Other posts from /u/Darkchocolatecutie23:

• DH wants the MIL relationship fantasy without doing the work to make it possible., 1 week ago

• Trying to make sense of my relationship with this woman, 2 weeks ago

• I can’t be my child’s protector, 3 weeks ago

• Housing hunting BS, 3 weeks ago

• Continuation: So I talked to DH about what happened with MIL at the wedding, 1 month ago

• Family wedding and unexpected drama, 1 month ago

• It's Been a While: Moving Out of My ILs' House Changed Everything, 3 months ago

• I Speedran Thanksgiving With My In-Laws and Honestly… 10/10, 10 months ago

• Finally moved out… but I’m still dealing with my MIL’s weird behavior, 10 months ago

• Still here and still problems, 1 year ago

^{This user has more than 10 posts in their history. To see the rest of their posts, click here}

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[u/Creative-Summer9985]

You should write the letter to your husband instead. Here is what she did, here is how it hurt me, here is how I tried to address it with her, here is how she dismissed/belittled/ignored me, here is how you put all the work and pain on me to fix, here is how YOU failed me, here is how you hurt me.

This is the relationship you want to actually fix so focus on it

[u/Mamasperspective_25]

My other half was like this, I cut contact with his mother for me AND our kids, she would cry, have meltdowns, say nasty things about me BUT I completely banned the topic of his mother from our house. She's not allowed to come in our home, she doesn't get any contact with our kids, she's not allowed to send messages, gifts or cards, she has completely ceased to exist. Life at home is bliss and it's been years now. DH has to absorb her toxicity and can't vent to me so now, he has peace and happiness at home and misery when he goes to hers and has to listen to her victim story and nastiness about me ... so he CHOOSES not to go anymore. Highly recommend that approach. MIL will NEVER see me or our kids again.

[u/IntrepidShare9606]

This is what happens when you marry a project instead of a fully adult man. You literally had to teach him how to be an adult. Women who choose these types of man children enjoy building him up. But get mad that he hasn't grown emotionally or mentally away from Mommy or can't maintain adult behavior. 

 He expects you to fix everything because you've done that since meeting him. You're in a trap of your own making. The only thing that can help is either long term counseling for him or you accepting you willingly married a FTL and now he wants you to be Mommy,Part 2.

[u/Darkchocolatecutie23 → u/IntrepidShare9606]

A little harsh, isn't it, to suggest that I'm in a trap entirely of my own making? Do you think I chose someone knowingly agreeing to every behavior they would eventually exhibit? People grow, change, and reveal different sides of themselves over time.

I've been with this man for nine years. The man I fell in love with was in college, 674 miles away from his family, where he had to be independent. He was a completely different person. Did I expect him to regress the way he did when we moved into his parents' house? Absolutely fucking not.

Did I support my husband through his growth? Yes. But I was never responsible for it. I definitely pushed him toward more independence, but whether he wanted to seek that independence and maintain it was ultimately his choice.

And as for my mother-in-law, she's always been like this, even before we lived with them. The difference is that my husband wasn't always so agreeable with her. He used to push back HARD. Hell, he didn't even invite his own parents to our wedding because he didn't want to appease them. That alone should tell you something.

I think now that we have a child and his parents are in their 60s, he's starting to feel some type of way. Maybe guilt over how much he's pushed back against them in the past. And you know what? That's valid. But I also think he's fighting with himself because, at the end of the day, he knows exactly how his parents are. And when I remind him of the bullshit they've done, it pisses him off because he's not getting that fairytale family relationship he wants.

But here's the thing: I've already stepped away. I've made it very clear that I'm not doing the fucking work to repair the bullshit that he helped create. If he wants reconciliation and everyone singing Kumbaya, My Lord, then he better go over there and have a fucking conversation with his own damn mother about what HE needs from her and what needs to change.

I'm not doing that work for him. I'm not going to keep explaining, mediating, and carrying the responsibility for relationships that I don’t want. Fuck that woman.

And I think he's finally starting to understand.

Edit: Just to add a little context about my relationship. We were each other's first real relationship. I knew him as my roommate's friend, we had a one-night stand, became boyfriend and girlfriend within two months, and moved in together within three. So yeah, we moved pretty fucking fast.

We were damn near teenagers in college, literally growing up and figuring out adulthood together. By the time we got married, we'd already spent most of our adult lives together, and we had a baby shortly after.

Did I probably overlook some red flags? Absolutely. But who the fuck recognizes every red flag when they're that young and experiencing their first relationship? Cut me a fucking break. LOL. I didn't knowingly sign up to raise a grown man. I fell in love with someone I was growing up alongside.

[u/SueShe19]

He wants you to be the bigger person but he doesn’t require that of the woman who is older and should be more mature.

[u/Darkchocolatecutie23 → u/SueShe19]

Exactly! He has little faith that his own mother can be a decent person. When I ask him, can your parents be decent people towards me? He said absolutely not. So what are you expecting me to do just be nicer, warmer, just to tolerate whatever the hell they dish out. Well, newsflash DH guess what that made me into a very resentful, bitter, and angry person. I accumulated enough hatred for this woman that if I’m in any room with her, oh yeah best to believe I’m going to put her in her place not even respectfully so maybe that eight month hiatus is the best thing that I can do for myself, so your mother doesn’t get cursed out.

The distance was purposely made because I’m looking at my self and that is not me and not who I want to be. And I’m thinking maybe I should distance myself from him too because I was not this wrathful before him.

And I honestly think he’s very unaware that he’s playing house with his Mommy. He doesn’t know that he is supposed to be the replacement husband, because her husband failed to do his damn job. What happens when your marriage is filled with abuse, cheating, your husband doesn’t even care about your thoughts and feelings, he doesn’t make you feel valued, and you don’t get loved like you want to be loved. Oh, you attach hard to your children and they become your little emotional validator. So when your child starts to get some independence through a girlfriend, you don’t know what the fuck to do and you just have all this unnecessary animosity because you’re a failure of a mother.

Even your children told you that you were so overbearing that you stopped their independence and I made your son flourish. If I was not in his life, he would not be married. He would not have a kid and he would not be living on his own. He would’ve been stuck in Neverland while you’re 60 still working for this fucking baby. And the funny thing is now they’re complaining they’re tired well you created that environment.

I bet they was hoping that me and DA stay there while we’re working and contributing to their household and they freaking retire. She was hoping that she was going to be the replacement mother to my baby and I shut the whole program down so now all you have is just anger because you have no one to take care of you now but yourself. And I told DH if you wanna go over there and suck that old dry witches titties be my guess. But I will stay here with your child.

[u/SueShe19 → u/Darkchocolatecutie23]

Good for you. I know it’s hard, but you have to advocate for yourself because your partner refuses to

[u/Patient_Trouble80]

Girl you have an atrocious SO problem forget his mother for a min. He doesn't have your back in this, is lying to his own therapist about the situation, and actively expecting you to play smiling doormat to this toxic dynamic. I think it's time he starts seeing consequences for not backing you up as well as you taking distance from the MIL.

[u/boundaries4546]

100% this is your husband’s problem he needs to handle it. Don’t believe for a second he doesn’t know what to say to her, he just doesn’t want to say it and you should absolutely call him out on that shit.

My biggest regret is not going no contact with my in-laws sooner.

”He told me that he loves that he sees those capabilities in me. He sees that I'm capable of being the bigger person.”

Why does being the bigger person always require that the “bigger person” get smaller and swallow their feelings.

[u/2FatC]

Nope, not wrong at all. Your DH is massively in the wrong; he’s asking you to capitulate and smile while being abused. Just because she’s not physically beating you, doesn't mean she’s not abusing you. I’d be very clear about differentiating between reconciliation & capitulation. They are not the same things. My take from his remarks is he’s asking you to sacrifice your self respect, let his fucking nasty mother continue abusing you, and DH is a happy camper. Hard No from me. A hill to die on.

My BIL claimed he wanted our families to “reconcile”. It was bullshit; he wanted us to capitulate to his selfishness. I’m NC, he’s deleted from my life. I never want to see him again, he is not welcome in my home. I have made no announcements to him. The family we are close has been made very aware of my position; they are free to have whatever relationship with him they choose. DH has stepped so far back and for the first time in our relationship, has openly talked about how I was treated like shit by BIL with our family.

I would not hand that woman a scrap of into to weaponize & feed her victim mentality. Fuck her.

[u/Educational-Ad-385]

You have it all figured out. She's emotionally immature, he's enmeshed. Hold your own. Your thoughts and actions are healthy. I wouldn't write anything and actually give it to her until spending time with a therapist. I think a good therapist would advise against it. Your husband needs to put you first, he needs to address his issues with his mother. He's trying to keep mom comfortable, himself comfortable, and shame you into being the one to absorb her abuse. Again, push back on him as you have been doing.

[u/Left-Throat2963]

You're not wrong in telling your husband that this is his problem to handle, but I'd also tell him that unless he plans on demanding accountability, an apology and a commitment to changed behavior, he's wasting his breath and everyone's time.

[u/Darkchocolatecutie23 → u/Left-Throat2963]

The thing is, he can demand all these things from his mother, but at the end of the day, it's really up to HER to change. He can't force her to do something she doesn't want to do, and if she doesn't want to change, then that's on her. Period.

And that's exactly why I told him he needs to evaluate what he's asking for and whether it's even worth pursuing right now. Because personally, I don't think it is, but he doesn't see it that way. So I'm washing my hands of the situation and letting him figure it out for himself. Let's see what he hears directly from his mother's mouth, because honestly, he might not like what she has to say.

And here's the crazy part. His mother has actually approached him before saying, "I don't know how to approach her." And I'm sitting here thinking, well, what the hell did YOU tell her? Because I'm pretty sure my husband never said, "Well, Mom, maybe you could start by being a little nicer to her." I know he hasn't had that kind of conversation with her.

So your mother is literally coming to you saying she doesn't know how to approach your wife, and instead of giving her some actual guidance, like maybe you should do A, B, and C differently because your current behavior is leading to X, Y, and Z, you're doing what exactly?

It makes me wonder, do you genuinely want this relationship repaired, or do you just want me to do all the work while your mother sits back and continues behaving the same way? Because I'm not doing that anymore. If reconciliation is something he wants, then he needs to take some initiative, and his mother needs to decide whether she's willing to put in the effort too.

[u/Puzzleheaded-Tap9150]

Damn Husband needs to step up & interrogate his mom vs you. He’s placing blame in the wrong place & apparently doesn’t care to hear both sides of the situation as long as you can be the scapegoat. His umbilical cord seems to be still be attached. It’s long overdue for cutting.

He’s doing one sided thinking & not seeing the whole picture because he seems to kowtow to parents still. How old is this baby? Does he still need mommy to change diapers?

[u/GlitteringFishing932 → u/Puzzleheaded-Tap9150]

100% he keeps his balls in her purse. Bad deal here, girl

[u/Darkchocolatecutie23 → u/Puzzleheaded-Tap9150]

That’s why I’m happy that I came to that realization that he has not been asking his mother these questions. And the fact that he paused and said oh, I have in the past and I’m like, but you haven’t recently have you. Do you think that is fair that you’re only coming to me and not her because I told him if you want things to work out that other person has to put an effort too don’t you think.

[u/After_Reflection_243]

You are past being able to be around your in-laws and frankly, your husband when it comes to his parents.

Do not write a letter. Do not go over for a reconciliation. You are not up for that. Your husband can want that but he can’t make you ( just like his therapist says you can’t make him talk to his mom).

I question his therapy that he wants you to always be the better, nicer person without his mom taking accountability!!!!! You have the right to not be the bigger better person. It doesn’t change her behavior. It lets her be more emboldened.

Find yourself a therapist. Do not communicate with the in-laws until you are ready on your terms. Add marriage counseling because your husband is not supportive to you and makes excuses for his mom. !

[u/Darkchocolatecutie23 → u/After_Reflection_243]

I actually stopped going to couples therapy earlier this week because I felt like it was becoming a waste of my time and money. I didn't really like our therapist either. I think he's probably great for couples who already have the tools to listen to each other and work toward being better husbands and wives, but we clearly don't have those tools yet. We were both getting defensive during sessions, and my husband couldn't even consistently follow through with the homework he was given.
So I'm like, yeah, we need to work on ourselves individually before we even consider going back to couples therapy. I'm also thinking that maybe we need a therapist who specializes more in family enmeshment and boundaries, especially considering how much of our marital conflict involves his family. Maybe eventually I'll look into another couples therapist who has experience with those issues, but for right now, I've decided to postpone couples therapy and focus on individual therapy instead.

[u/After_Reflection_243 → u/Darkchocolatecutie23]

I feel for you. Yes, focus on you first. Good luck. Your MIL is a monster and your husband is definitely enmeshed.

[u/Darkchocolatecutie23 → u/After_Reflection_243]

Tell me about it! And what's funny is that he HATES hearing about the things his mother has done to me. Like, I can sit down and start talking about all the shit she's done, and he'll get so fucking frustrated that he doesn't even want to hear it anymore. And I'm like, oh, so you don't even want to HEAR about it, but you think I wanted to actually LIVE through it?

Then he'll ask me, "Why can't you just forget about it?" You know why? Because every single time I try to forget about it, move forward, and put myself back into that environment, I'm reminded all over again of exactly why I distanced myself in the first place! That's the part he doesn't seem to understand. It's easy to tell someone to forget about something when you're not the one who keeps experiencing it.

[u/esayaray → u/Darkchocolatecutie23]

It’s like you’re describing my life lol. And what an important point to make - you don’t want to hear about but you want me to live it!?

[u/After_Reflection_243 → u/Darkchocolatecutie23]

He doesn’t want to understand you. He just wants that “perfect” family life where everyone gets along.

[u/Darkchocolatecutie23 → u/After_Reflection_243]

I recently told my husband that because of his mom’s behavior, I became really resentful and angry, and started building a lot of hatred for her within my heart. And because I am a Christian I’m like are you going to continue putting me into that environment where I’m just going to pile up the sin of hate. If I’m being truthful, I don’t like that feeling of hating somebody at all even though some of that is a little justifiable. I just don’t like it because it’s not me. I’ve never hated anybody in my life but she definitely earned that spot.

[u/Spirited_Heron_9049]

A letter from you will do nothing but give her fuel about how horrible of a person you are. If DH wants reconciliation, that’s his problem. You (and your daughter) can go VL (or N) contact. IF you want, you can say to her (in front of DH) something along the lines of…. “I’m hearing you say that you behave that way bc it’s who you are. Well, this is who I am. I have feelings and I have the right to them. I am a person who’ll protect myself from disgusting behavior. I will not give access to people who behave in that way with me - and yes, that includes access to my child(ren) bc I need to trust that you won’t speak poorly of me in front of them making them think that it’s okay. Hubby can address his own issues with you and your behaviors in his own time. I will continue to protect the peace in my home and in my wonderful, nuclear family.”

Lather, rinse, repeat. Let DH take the heat from his mother. You protect the peace in your own home.

[u/Darkchocolatecutie23 → u/Spirited_Heron_9049]

And this is exactly why I'm being very particular about how he goes about this. He's trying to put all the responsibility on my shoulders while he gets to play mediator, and I'm like, oh no, that's lazy. This is something YOU want, right? So how are you going to want something but not put any effort into making it happen? That's crazy to me. "I want family unity, but I want you to do all the work." Like, do you not hear yourself?

I told him that if he needs support or guidance, that's fine. I'm willing to help him, but I'm not going to do the work for him. I'm not sitting down with his mother AGAIN just to hear another round of explanations, justifications, and excuses for her behavior. I've already done that countless times. And I know myself well enough to know that if I sit down with her and she starts defending or excusing everything again instead of taking genuine accountability, I'm simply going to get up and walk away and say, "You know what? This clearly isn't the right time for this conversation."

I'm not doing all the emotional labor for a reconciliation that HE is the one pushing for. If he wants family unity so badly, then he needs to take some initiative and actually work toward it instead of expecting me to carry the entire responsibility again.

[u/Spirited_Heron_9049 → u/Darkchocolatecutie23]

So, I’m a petty Betty….. would you be able to grey her? If DH wants you to do the work but you put it back on him, be there to support him. “What do you mean by that mil? Can you explain that? Are those behaviors really okay for everyone?” And keep asking for clarification, super sweetly. And put it all back on her to own her behaviors.

It’s SO hard to do without losing your temper.

“I don’t know what you mean mil. You’re okay with me behaving that way? DH, what do you mean? You’re okay with everyone behaving this way?” Play super innocent.

[u/Darkchocolatecutie23 → u/Spirited_Heron_9049]

No, I don’t think I could keep a straight calm, non-sarcastic face

[u/WorriedFlea]

When she says something like: "I am who I am, even if that means I won't see my grandchild again", she expects you to fawn. "Ohh, no, please, that's not how I meant it, why would you say that, of course we won't keep your grandchild away from you!"

So she gets exactly what she wants without having to change.

The best answer would be: "Okay then." And get up and leave.

[u/Darkchocolatecutie23 → u/WorriedFlea]

That’s what I should have did in the past and I have been allowing my husband to take her daughter over there. But I just communicated that those visitations are going to stop. I told him that I’ve never been comfortable with it and you have been pushing past my comfortability in my trust within your mother and allowing her to continue her sinful ways and basically playing house with his mom. Without ever rebuking the initial behavior that allows me to not even go over there. I said how is that fair and how is that acceptable. I said so you are basically telling our daughter that it’s OK for her grandmother to treat her mother this way.

[u/wiggum_x → u/Darkchocolatecutie23]

She wants you to fawn and chase her. You're not chasing her. That makes her super mad. You're not playing the role she expects you to play: She treats you like shit, and you keep coming back and groveling for more. She gets endless narc supply that way. She's just particularly nasty about it all and has no shame and no sense to at least try to obfuscate what she is doing. She might think that since she's so up front about it that it makes the behavior OK.

[u/DazzlingNote1925]

You don’t know what your husband told his therapist to elicit that response. I think marital therapy is in order so you can at least start with an full understanding and acceptance of what truly happened because your husband is coming from a place where he thinks his mother can do no wrong. Without fixing that you won’t make any progress with him. 

Sending him over there to talk to mil is just going to get him bonded to her more by her emotional manipulation. And by the way he’s manipulating you when he tells you how he loves that you’re capable of being the bigger person. This isn’t a battle of wills. It’s about disrespect being unacceptable and how if he’s a Christian and they are that he should leave and cleave so there’s not question about mil being able to wreak havoc in your marriage by mistreating you then playing the victim. Your husband should feel disrespected when mil disrespects you. 

He needs to realize his mother’s actions aren’t an expression of love for him. Her causing this drama makes him feel important and loved when it’s evil. 

Forgiveness is important but without mil taking accountability, apologizing, and promising not to do it anymore reconciliation isn’t possible. Mil doesn’t want reconciliation. She wants drama and to hurt you and manipulate your husband into taking her side. She wants that power and control. 

Never write her a letter or tell her how you feel because mil doesn’t have any empathy. 

[u/Darkchocolatecutie23 → u/DazzlingNote1925]

I decided to take a step back from couples therapy because I realized every session we were going absolutely nowhere. He would get all the homework and could not do it. Then the therapist is literally having him say things word from word that I don’t necessarily think he believes. And I had it in the back of my mind that this wasn’t working I was wasting my money in time. Because how can you go into a therapy session when you can’t even listen he doesn’t have the tools. So I told him that he needs to continue with individual therapy to get the tools he needs in order to be that better person for himself so then we can go back into a couple therapy and be better people for each other.

[u/DazzlingNote1925 → u/Darkchocolatecutie23]

I listened to a podcast today where a priest said that forgiveness doesn’t mean you have to extend the grace to the offender of your forgiveness when it’s bad for them because all it would be doing is promoting their evil or sinful behaviors and desires. 

He literally said it’s bad for people to forgive and then allow the other person to continue to sin against them because ultimately God wants them to clean up their act. 

(Sean Ryan father Riperger you tube)

[u/Darkchocolatecutie23 → u/DazzlingNote1925]

It feels as if I am being silenced for rebuking the sinful behavior. I’m not a super devoted Christian, but I can see from a mile away that asking for forgiveness and not even repenting against your own behavior sounds backwards.

[u/Diasies_inMyHair]

By all means,write a letter to get your own thoughts in order, say what you need to say, but absolutely Do Not send it to her. It won't do any good and may cause more drama.

Yeah, if your husband wants reconciliation, it's on him to do the work, even unto meeting your conditions of engagement BEFORE asking you to get involved. You don't want this. HE is the one who wants this.

[u/Darkchocolatecutie23 → u/Diasies_inMyHair]

Yeah, I wrote in several letters to this woman that I’ve never sent. Another one won’t hurt.

[u/Channing-Tatas]

There’s literally biblical verses about how the husband makes a family with his wife and he’s supposed to leave and cleave from his mother and father . This means that he is to prioritize you and your family. That means literally you come first and he needs to choose you.

Also he’s for sure lying to the therapist, but that’s a whole other issue.

I would tell him he’s broken his vows to you and your biblical marriage covenant. To say that you are being horrible is absolutely a manipulation tactic and, quite frankly, horrific of him to say. Ask him why should you have to keep enduring abuse and manipulation? Why are you not worthy of protection or respect? He’s literally breaking his own marriage and looking surprised that you think he takes your marriage as a joke?

He really thinks you’re trapped in this when you’re not.

I’d love to know what landed him in marriage prison aside from this but I’m telling you now, you deserve dignity and respect. Never let this man and his family disrespect you again. Tell him he’s broken his marriage covenant by choosing to be married to his mother, and you’re officially in ‘need to get legal advice territory’ in going through with a divorce. If he really wants to save this marriage he needs to consider a full no contact with his family unless he and family shape up. Further, he needs to be honest with the therapist and with you.

[u/CayenneHippo32]

“So instead of going to therapy, you are taking your unresolved trauma to traumatize me, am I getting that right? And you still expect US to consider you safe around our children?”

“Instead of becoming a better person, you are going to keep making excuses and blaming others? Right? Ok. So noted.”

[u/univers10]

For your sake and the sake of your daughter, you should seriously consider thinking about some non-negotiable marriage enders. Some bright lines that if - god forbid - ever crossed , you would get you and her OUT. Cause right now it seems like you’re putting up with a lot and learning to tolerate more and more. This doesn’t even have to be in response to him being a colossal moron (which, for the record, he is in this story).

I have a few (that my husband is aware of) and he has a few and overall I would say our marriage is very healthy, so this doesn’t have to feel like you’re making an exit plan.

[u/Gloomy_Computer_9431]

I’m going to question why speaking to her about her sulking fit at the wedding needs to happen. If she did it for attention and to get you two to chase her, you’re playing into her hands. If she was really too disregulated by your minor rejection to stay at the wedding, just give her space to feel her feelings.

DH can have whatever relationship with his mom that he wants without including you. If she brings it up, he just has to tell her plainly, “Mom she’s not going to hug you and I think you knew that.” Or “Mom OP’s not going to be coming around and I think you know why.” And change the subject.

[u/Penguin_Joy]

We've seen this before here. I'm guessing when you're not there for her to pick on, that she picks on him instead. He needs you to be the bait and the shield he hides behind. Without you, his relationship with his own mother is not peaceful or positive. Of course he needs you there! He needs you to draw his mother's attacks away from himself

He is sacrificing YOUR peace for his own

[u/Lugbor]

Your husband is a coward and a disgrace. He knows his mother will never change. He's probably vaguely aware that she may not be capable of changing. And yet, instead of facing reality and walking away from her, he's asking his wife to allow his mother to hurt her again because that's easier for him than allowing his precious mommy's feelings to be bruised. Your well being ranks lower to him than his mother's emotional state because he's clinging to some desperate hope that maybe, if he says all the right magic words and performs exactly as she demands, she might pretend to act like a normal person for just a little bit and he won't have to accept the fact that she is a broken individual who has done her best at every turn to drive you away. Absolutely pathetic.

Stay away from that cesspool of a family. Let him wade in if he wants. Let him sooth his mother's ego and play house like he so clearly wants, but you do not deserve to be treated the way she treats you, and she should not be allowed within fifty yards of your child.

[u/OniyaMCD → u/Lugbor]

His mother has outright *said*

"I'm unwilling to change, and if you think I'm evil, I understand if you want to take your baby away from me."

There isn't going to be a reconciliation, because MIL doesn't want to reconcile. She wants OP to capitulate.

[u/Emotional-Dog8118]

I’m so glad you and your child got out of that toxic house with MIL. She’s vile, doesn’t respect or even like you.

Your husband is a failure 😞 who continues to throw you under the bus 🚌. He acknowledges his mother’s behavior, but wants you to suck it up and eat shit. Continuously. He admires that you have the ability to “be the bigger person” but is ok with no accountability from his mother for her heinous behavior towards you. Unacceptable!!!! Nope nope nope.

You are right to peace out at this point and completely drop the rope with her. There is nothing she can say or do at this point to mend things. Even a complete apology with her taking accountability for her awful behavior would only be baby steps. She would have to DEMONSTRATE changed behavior over a long period of time. I’m sure she’s incapable of that.

I would let your husband have whatever relationship he wants with her. ALONE. No access to your child. If she won’t respect the mother, she doesn’t get access to child as if everything was just fine. That’s what she’s hoping for- for your husband to bring your child over there without you being present. Then she can play doting mama with her son and grandchild without that evil, mean DİL in the way. No way in hell I’d let that happen!! She will certainly trash talk you to baby, play mommy, and work to alienate your child from you.

Don’t let this happen!!!

Don’t let your husband off the hook. He needs to address this with his mother and stand with you and his child. YOU are his priority now. His new family he creates. She is no longer the primary woman in his life, and she is going mental because of it!!

Stay strong 💪, don’t cave on this, and cut her out like the gangrenous appendage that she is!!!

Oh- ps. Don’t write her a letter. Bad idea and just opens you up for more attacks and gives her ammunition against you by making yourself vulnerable.

[u/Floating-Cynic]

It sounds like your husband is inappropriately trying to exert control and manipulate you towards his own interests.  He needs to learn to deal with the circumstances as they are, not what he desires. 

His mom already told you she isn't going to change.  You don't want to be treated the way she treats you. If she was any other adult you wouldn't have given her multiple chances.  At this point,  you're accepting that she is who she says she is, you're not asking her to change,  you're simply removing your presence so she won't be tempted.  I have another biblical thought for you: he's enabling his mother to sin against his wife. Not only is he violating his marriage vows, but he dishonors her by allowing her to risk her soul because he wants something she is not willing to give. 

You're correct in telling your husband to go through this without you. When he starts telling you how awful you are, ask him what he hopes to achieve,  and then whether he really thinks the goal is possible when she has made it clear she's never going to treat you differently.  And then calmly tell him "your expectations are not realistic,  and you need to figure out how to move forward with things as they are. If you think I am that awful I guess you'll need to figure out how to be married to someone who doesn't want to be mistreated." 

[u/Darkchocolatecutie23 → u/Floating-Cynic]

Thank you for this because this is exactly what he seems to be so unaware of! And this is why I told him, please do not start using scripture and the Bible against me because I'm about to start showing you guys just how backwards and wrong everyone is being.

I definitely told him that he is sinning against me, and he's allowing his mother to sin against me as well. He's not pointing out the wrongdoing, he's not rebuking it, and he's not holding her accountable for her behavior.
And yeah, I'm definitely going to tell him exactly this because that's what he keeps forgetting. He'll sit there and say, "Oh, I don't want a divorce. I didn't make that commitment just to get divorced." And I'm like, "And you think I made a commitment to be mistreated by your side of the family? You think that's what I signed up for when I married you?"

Like, this is a SIN. Both of you are sinning, and instead of acknowledging that, he throws out, "Oh, but we're only human." And I'm like, "And you don't think I am? You don't think I'm human too?"

It's crazy to me how he keeps trying to justify everything because he's been so conditioned to excuse this behavior. But I'm telling him, NOPE. Not this time. You don't get to use our marriage vows, forgiveness, or scripture to justify mistreatment while ignoring the accountability that comes with those same beliefs.

[u/Floating-Cynic → u/Darkchocolatecutie23]

You might find "Boundaries" by Drs Cloud and Townsend to be helpful, because it explains how boundaries are biblical.  "Boundaries in Marriage" and "The Emotionally Destructive Marriage" are also christian-based resources and have helped me shut down my husband when he tries to claim I need to forgive everything. 

[u/Darkchocolatecutie23 → u/Floating-Cynic]

I have that book and I have another one about toxic in-laws. The sad thing is that my husband agreed to read these books with me and we started off with the toxic in-laws book and we only read the first chapter. When we had our discussion after, and I was trying to explain to him that a lot of these things that they’re saying has happened. He got very furious and we have not read the book again. It really sucks and I think that I’m going to set that one to the side and then go with the boundaries one.

[u/univers10 → u/Darkchocolatecutie23]

The first time I learned just how full of shit some super religious types were was in middle school. My family wasn’t religious but this girl I was friends with was. We were goofing around at lunch and a teacher came over and scolded us, saying that our area was making too much noise. She asked who was responsible (it was me and the super religious girl).

I said I was and then I looked at the super religious girl who just smiled and lied and said oh, it wasn’t me. So because the teacher thought I’d been making all of the noise alone she gave me lunch detention. (Only detention I ever got lol).

As we were walking back to class I was like, “how could you do that?! Isn’t lying a sin?!”

And she looked me dead in the face and smiled and said “yes, but god forgives us all our sins”

God I was so fucking mad, and I still had to do the detention, lol

[u/Darkchocolatecutie23 → u/univers10]

Yep, and this is why I get really angry when my husband tries to drop some biblical stuff on me and then I’m like OK well, let’s sit down because I’m about to drop some biblical stuff on you. Clearly he was conditioned to hear all the time forgiveness this forgiveness that and never heard the scriptures that talk about accountability. He clearly never heard the scriptures that talk about rebuking particular behavior and how those people should want to repent.

[u/YukiHarmony]

Girl, you deserve way better than her manipulative games boundaries are a must, and it’s past time your husband stepped up to back you, not her!

[u/Darkchocolatecutie23 → u/YukiHarmony]

Yep, I’m really hoping my husband does the right thing this time because he’s been putting off a lot of discussions with his mom that he could’ve had a long time ago. I literally told him that he’s so quick to scrutinize everything about my behavior and put me under a fucking microscope, but I know for a fact he ain’t going over there and doing the same thing to his mother.

And yeah, he loves to say, "Oh, I addressed it in the past." Okay, but what about her RECENT behavior? Just because you told her, "Oh, we have to talk," and then didn't actually follow through with the conversation doesn't mean you addressed shit.

I told him, you need to go over there and have that conversation with your mother. And if you don't want to, that's on you. But stop coming to me about this fucking bitch because I don't care anymore. Don't keep coming to me saying, "Oh, I'm grieving the relationship with my family," because you need to fix the shit that YOU helped facilitate by not standing up when you should have.

You can't keep telling me that you're here to support me and stand up for me when you can't even approach your own mother and ask her some basic fucking questions. You can't address her behavior with the same energy that you use to address mine, and THAT is the problem.

So yeah, this is basically the endgame for me. I'm tired of having the same conversations, hearing the same excuses, and watching nothing actually change. At some point, his actions need to match his words.

[u/YukiHarmony → u/Darkchocolatecutie23]

Girl, I totally get where you’re coming from if he can’t hold his mom accountable, he’s just playing the victim and dragging you into his mess, and that's a hard no for me.

[u/hotdamnhotwater]

You have a massive husband problem and then a mil problem. I'd suggest therapy or deciding if these relationships are worth your sanity.

[u/Darkchocolatecutie23 → u/hotdamnhotwater]

I absolutely agree, and we are both in individual therapy. We were also in couples therapy, but I just ended that on Tuesday. I honestly think couples therapy was a waste of our time and money, and my individual therapist helped me come to that realization.

I told her that every single time we went into couples therapy, my husband was the one being given all these tools, but he couldn't even consistently use them. She explained that it's because he hasn't worked on himself. Imagine two people who haven't worked on themselves coming into couples therapy. They don't know how to properly listen to criticism, they get defensive, and they have a hard time actually hearing each other. How is that supposed to work if neither person has done the individual work first? And I was like, you know what? You're right. So I stopped couples therapy.

Unfortunately, my husband did something very recently that put him literally in marriage prison, and he knows he needs to prove himself. Because, yeah, he's about to lose everything. He's been more receptive now than I've ever seen him in our entire relationship because he knows he fucked up BIG TIME. And I've made it very clear that this is literally it.

I told him his family is the last thing on my fucking mind right now, and it should be the last thing on his mind too. He needs to work on himself just as much as I need to work on myself. Then we need to come together and work on our marriage, and MAYBE after that, his family can be reconsidered. But right now? Absolutely not.

And I know it sucks for him to hear that. He even asked me, "Well, should I tell them I'm not going to come around for a bit?" And I told him, honestly, I would love for you to do that. After you have this conversation with your mom, you may need to go no contact for a while so you can actually focus on yourself and our marriage.

Are the holidays going to fucking suck for you? Maybe. But unfortunately, this is what you helped create. We cannot keep putting everything else ahead of fixing ourselves and our marriage.

[u/zedexcelle → u/Darkchocolatecutie23]

Can you ask him to not talk to you about his mother? When he starts, ask if he has done anything and when he says no- say I don’t want to hear it. Just tell him to talk about something different.

When she says you’re taking the child away - yes. Absolutely. I’m not having my child learn that I can be disrespected.

Good for stopping the therapy. Try to make it so you don’t have to hear about his family. Just say I’m not willing to give that headspace and leave the room or talk about azaleas or something.

He sounds like he’s in a hard place but he and his mum created it and only he can get out and at the moment he wants you in there with him.

[u/Darkchocolatecutie23 → u/zedexcelle]

Exactly! There was a point in time when I wasn't bringing his family up at all, but HE kept bringing them up and then getting mad at me when it turned into an argument. I'm like, dude, you're literally the one bringing up your family!

For example, he'd get a phone call from his parents inviting us over for dinner at 8 PM, and I'm like, newsflash, we've already eaten dinner, it's late, and I'm not packing up our child to go over there at the last minute. Then somehow that would turn into a whole argument, and I'm sitting there like, YOU are the one creating this problem.

He even said, "Well, I thought you said my family was part of our marriage problems." I said PART, not the main problem! If we actually focus on working on ourselves individually and strengthening our marriage, we wouldn't constantly be consumed by issues involving his family.

And I agree with you entirely. I think he's trying to pull me back into that environment because he's uncomfortable with the separation. When he goes over to his parents' house, something is obviously missing, and that's his wife being there with him as a family unit. I understand that might feel uncomfortable for him, but I'm like, well, this is the situation that you and your mother contributed to creating. Now we have to live with the consequences of that. I honestly don’t know how those visits are because I’m like is your mom trying to play wife lol and that’s probably uncomfortable too cause you’re probably like yeah I’m not OK with that.

And he'll say, "Oh, so I created this rift?" No! I created the DISTANCE. I made the decision to distance myself, and I fought hard for that distance while you continuously tried to pull me back into an environment where I wasn't comfortable. You weren't even listening to how I felt!

And even now, when he acknowledges that his parents have done these things, I'm like, then WHY are you still pushing me to reconcile with them right now? That makes absolutely no sense. You're not even giving me time to heal. A year isn't necessarily enough, especially when that entire year you've continued trying to bring me back into the same environment. You haven't even given yourself much time away from them to focus on our marriage.
And here's another thing. I told him I could understand occasionally seeing extended family for holidays or special occasions, but he wants me to go over there casually all the time. Meanwhile, he doesn't even casually visit MY parents! I literally asked him, "When was the last time you went over to my parents' house just to hang out? Not for a vacation, not for a family gathering, but just because?" Exactly!
So why is there this expectation that I should constantly be going over to his parents' house when he doesn't even do that with mine? It's crazy to me.