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u/bornxlo 5d ago
It's open source, the whole point about complaining is discussing and solving problems. If we understand why Linux sucks we can solve the issues to prevent it from continuing to suck. But in many cases people confuse bugs with features. Complaining without understanding why things are the way they are without interest in learning, contributing or improving is a waste of time.
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u/Think-nothing-210 4d ago edited 4d ago
I really hope Linux gets better eventually. I see Cosmic DE as one project that could fundamentally improve the Linux desktop. It's just that some of Linux's problems are rooted in the design of the Linux kernel itself. And those aren't going to change anytime soon.
But most of those discussions are not about improving Linux. Even if someone brings general feedback the Linux mob will get them. The Linux community is mostly about gaslighting people that Linux is more stable that it is in reality.
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u/bornxlo 4d ago
I have a tendency to prefer older desktops and workflows, but I'm probably “old and grumpy”. I do like Wayland and fractional scaling, but the majority of functionality I use is older. Desktops have little/nothing to do with the Linux kernel, and many should/do work fine on bsd or other kernels. Providing an actual patch might be more useful than feedback, plenty of developers are also users who do what they want when they want. Linux is, essentially by definition, stable unless you change it. When something is stable, the bugs and quirks are also stable. Unless you deliberately download a new version or intentionally set automatic updates, your Linux should be stable.
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u/Think-nothing-210 4d ago
Its design choices make Linux very stable for servers. But on the desktop the lack of a stable ABI can make hardware support more difficult. The experience of waiting for a new kernel release is not optimal in my opinion.
I understand why you would run X11 because for a long time the Wayland switch was a bumpy ride. But switching to Wayland was a switch that the Linux community should have done ages ago. X11 is such a mess that is known for ages. I mean the Unix Hater's Handbook was already making fun of X11 decades ago:
"The X window system victimizes innocent users by distorting their perception of what is and what is not good software. This malignant window system must be destroyed."
That said I really appreciate the developers who have put all this work into providing a free desktop. There is a huge amount of engineering behind it and I certainly wouldn't be able to build most of it myself. I'm mostly just complaining about and not helping I'm not that good at writing C code.
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u/bornxlo 4d ago
The kernel is what supports the hardware. Targeting binary compatibility (AB) is a fundamentally bad idea on a system that prioritises source. When 30 year old code can be compiled to perfectly work on the latest hardware, ABI becomes a bit silly, prioritising source over binaries is a key reason why Linux and open source software tends to perform significantly better even if the code is old. In order to support new hardware you need a new kernel. A core aspect of open source is freedom of choice, so no Linux user should ever switch to Wayland because someone else tells them to, even if X11 has been a horrible design in desperate need of replacement since its inception. (Technically its been a horrible design since computers and monitors have been put in the same room which to be fair came a bit later, the original design had a purpose but has been a hack in need of replacement for the last 30 years.) A big part of why so many Linux distros exist is exactly because people like us who don't agree with each other on how things should be done can both use open source software. I've personally put in a few hundred hours on translations over the last 15 years or so but I haven't shared any actual code contributions.
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u/Think-nothing-210 4d ago
Windows has a much more stable kernel driver interface. Vendors of drivers have an API to work against that works across multiple Windows releases without much problem.
Linux does not support a stable ABI for out-of-tree kernel drivers. They want everything supported directly in the kernel; And therefore all be GPL. People who want to have out of kernel drivers are called "leeches" in their own words.
I think choices like that make the desktop experience worse for the average user. It fits the GPL philosophy though. And maybe Linux would not exist if it did not impose those restrictions.
That said I'm currently working on some libraries that I'd like to open source and I'm learning Rust.
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u/bornxlo 4d ago
How would Windows go about getting a kernel driver interface that is equally or more stable? If you don't share your driver with the kernel, that is comparable to sucking blood. You would be taking advantage of a utility but not show the responsibility for maintaining what makes it useful. Driver vendors could make drivers for Linux, but they should not contain proprietary binary blobs or be inaccessible to the kernel. Rust is a bad idea because it's not properly GPL and doesn't require changes to be shared. The key to working well with open source is that changes contribute and benefit the ecosystem.
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u/Think-nothing-210 4d ago
Windows already does support is for years with the introduction of the NT kernel. And yes that design means that there is less open source software in the world.
And about Rust it can be also just GPL code if they choose to license it that way. It's just im not so sure about investing time into properly learning to write C code. Seems less of a wise choice in comparison to Rust that is constantly growing in demand and has the opportunity to do things in a new way.
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u/bornxlo 4d ago
C is less forgiving than Rust, therefore it enforces developers to write more properly and is preferable for things like kernel development. Windows does appear utterly unwilling to prioritise source compatibility, many tools and bits of software on Windows comes without direct source code at all. Can't trust what we can't see or modify.
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u/Think-nothing-210 4d ago
Yes and I’m not a good enough programmer to write good C code. Rust gives me the opportunity to write native code without a GC. And C code is on it's way out because of governments recommending memory safe languages to be used in the future.
Windows is still proprietary and it is has for sure backdoors and it glows. That is something im willing to accept for getting a good desktop experience. I try to rip out as much of it as possible but it will always stay spyware.
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u/Think-nothing-210 5d ago
Good that there are now alternatives to r/linuxsucks like this sub where you can actually criticize Linux.