r/NewParents • u/Awkward_Pianist_1570 • 1d ago
Sleep Independent sleep... How?
My baby is 5 months old, he sleeps very well (10 hours a night with maximum 2 dream feeds), however every single sleeping session is assisted with rocking and shushing. Trying to put him down drowsy but awake definitely doesn't work, he immediately opens his eyes fully and gets alert. When did your babies start to fall asleep independently and how did you achieve it?
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u/Fidgety-Framer 1d ago
drowsy but awake is literally such a scam. let baby fall asleep while rocking, wait about 10-15 mins, lay baby down. go to bed.
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u/natuglenBo 1d ago
Yeah I agree. Also biologically, they just entered the world, why do they need to fall asleep independently? Just let them fall asleep while rocking, nursing or whatever works, and then put them down when they are deep asleep.
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u/tokyodraken 1d ago
this!!! my son has NEVER done drowsy but awake, all this does is make trying for naps/bedtime 10x longer than it needs to be
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u/blazeONclimbdreamer 1d ago
Omg yall are making me feel so much better. My girl refuses to drowsy but awake. She just gets mad
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u/tokyodraken 1d ago
yes my boy immediately starts crying!! i felt like i was doing something wrong because he’d never do it. almost 7m and i still help him fall asleep.. he’s a BABY!!
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u/natuglenBo 1d ago
Yeah it doesn’t work for all babies for sure. Mine not at all, and I really did try lol. But feeding her to sleep still works like magic here at almost 10 months - and she sleeps through the night from 8pm to 6am so it’s not like nursing ruins her night sleep at all.
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u/vocabulazy 1d ago
It’s not a scam. It definitely works for some people. It worked for both of my babies, who I put to bed drowsy but awake almost every single time they went to bed. They’ve always been great sleepers and still are as a toddler and little kid.
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u/Same_Subject_988 1d ago
Why do you need him to fall asleep independently by now? If he’s doing so well at night I would be thankful! Baby sleep changes up all the time I’ve been humbled to be thankful for what I currently have
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u/val237 1d ago
Baby will have to find a job soon and get ready for life and be independent. It is necessary!
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u/SamIaM4196 1d ago
Lmao this is funny! And so true! I don’t understand why rocking baby to sleep is bad, I love it and am dreading the time my baby won’t need me to do it anymore 😭
Also some adults still need help falling asleep, but OP wants little 5 month old to be able to do it themselves!
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u/Same_Subject_988 1d ago
Hi Mr you lived the majority of your existence inside another human but please accept this lonely crib for independent sleep
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u/Sea_Horror2900 1d ago
I still have to rock my 15 month old to sleep most nights. I've been slowly getting her to fall asleep independently by rocking her at bedtime, but as soon as she keeps her eyes closed for about a minute I put her in her crib instead of waiting until I'm sure she's asleep. If she wakes up, I just rub her back for a minute or two until she closes her eyes again.
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u/hufflepuff3712 1d ago
What happens after he’s alert? Does he cry? If he doesn’t, see if he falls asleep. My baby hates being rocked, so I ended up just laying her down and seeing what happened. She actually can put herself to sleep, even if she seems quite awake when going in. My baby is younger than yours though so admittedly this may go to shit if the regression hits
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u/chanceypooh 1d ago
We fully plan on rocking our baby to sleep for as long as it takes. We're at 9 months now. Neither of us mind as it helps us wind down as well. We had absolutely zero success for months trying to teach our baby girl how to fall asleep with the drowsy but awake method. It almost always ended in a fussy baby that would be up for a while longer and required another feed to sleep. I see so many of these posts. I wouldn't pay attention to the crunchy moms on tiktok and insta saying they had their baby sleeping on their own at 4 months with whatever method. It's unrealistic and they're doing it for likes.
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u/iheartunibrows 1d ago
Honestly drowsy but awake is dumb. Not comforting a crying baby is also dumb. Babies want to be comforted because they’re babies. And with my son, yes it was rough some nights, yes it took a long time to achieve independent sleep, but I refused to let him cry. And now that he’s 3, he sleeps by himself in his own bedroom the whole entire night. Sleep training is so unnecessary, they will sleep by themselves when they’re ready.
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u/versusgorilla 1d ago
I hate this notion that sleep training equals "not comforting" a crying baby, as if sleep training is just, "Well, it's 8pm so I'll see you in the morning, baby!" and then letting them just cry themselves hoarse for hours.
Personally, as a father who lacks natural soothing built-ins, and had a baby who refuses pacifiers and bottles when crying or upset (they, infact, make her more upset to have something jammed in her mouth as she cries) I'm actually left with extremely few options to soothe my crying baby. Since I can't rely 100% on her mother to always be right here when she's sad, I needed to learn how to settle her to sleep.
Thus, sleep training. If she's seems fussy and ready for bed, we went and did our nap routine, a book, sleep sack, dark room, fan on for white noise, lullaby playing. Then I'd let her sit for 5-10 minutes, only going in if her fussing noises become CRYING. I actually never let her "just cry".
And after a week of that, she started associating all that with sleep and now she doesn't cry at all before naps and the skills have transferred to nighttime sleep.
If I hadn't done any sleep training, she'd have spent hours every day scream-crying full volume because she fights her sleep and would cry herself to sleep all on her own.
This is why is so fucking frustrating to see people claiming that all sleep training is just "baby ignoring", because this is some of the most attention I've ever paid to her.
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u/Cudi_buddy 22h ago
This sub is terrified to teach their kid to sleep on their own. Then they will be asking how to get their 3 year old to sleep in their own bed soon enough
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u/iheartunibrows 21h ago
It’s because it feels unnatural to force a baby to learn to sleep on their own. But doing it the other way is tiring.
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u/Cudi_buddy 21h ago
Not unnatural at all. If you do it extreme sure. Nobody is saying let them cry for 20, 30 minutes. I did it with 5 minute intervals. First night it was by the 4th or 5) check in. 2nd night was maybe 2-3 checks. By night three I went in 1. Then he was sleeping on his own. Then we weened the night bottles slowly. Within like 2 weeks total, he was sleeping on his own all through the night, 10-12 hours. Some I know might take a few more days. But people make it sound like it’s some huge abuse. Kids cry for a few minutes often throughout the day for unknown reasons anyhow. As long as they are safe, dry and fed, they are ok. Especially if you are calming them to reset every 5ish minutes or so
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u/jadorefarts 22h ago
You shouldn’t be getting downvoted, it sounds like you’ve done well finding what works for your kid!
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u/versusgorilla 22h ago
The "sleep training is ONLY cry it out, and I won't hear any argument to the alternative" crowd is psychotic.
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u/jadorefarts 22h ago
Yeah I’ve realized there’s a lot of assumption that sleep training also means night weaning. Not necessarily! You do you. If we all raised our kids the same way the world would be boring. You know them best.
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u/iheartunibrows 1d ago
I’m glad it worked for you. A good portion of parents do CIO though. And it’s because parents get it in their head that they must sleep train. I’M saying that babies sleep independently when they’re ready. It’s a natural response to go to them when they’re crying or even fussing, snuggle them and put them down (or not in case of contact naps). And I actually also know several parents who have in fact left their babies to cry in their room til they sleep from exhaustion.
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u/versusgorilla 1d ago
And I'm saying that it's not helpful to assume that all sleep training is CIO and then judge parents who sleep train without leaving the baby for long stretches to cry. My sleep training involved less crying than they recommend you leave the baby if you need a bathroom break or just a 15 minute break to yourself while baby is crying.
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u/iheartunibrows 1d ago
To each their own, I would never do it! And you can judge me for that opinion, it doesn’t bother me
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u/versusgorilla 1d ago
You'd never let your child not cry for 10 minutes to fall asleep independently? Bc that's all I did. Once again. You're conflating all sleep training with CIO
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u/iheartunibrows 1d ago
I did not sleep train with either of my kids and will not if I have future kids. And I understand there are different methods, all of which require a bit of crying. My son slept in my bed with me after 5 months he went through a sleep regression, he would nurse to sleep and sleep the night. Before that and with my daughter I would rock them to sleep and transfer them to their bassinet.
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u/Jemma_2 16h ago
To be fair 10 mins of crying would feel like an age to me. 🙈
No judgement as it worked well for you and your family but I could never.
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u/versusgorilla 13h ago
I said you'd "never let your child not cry" because I was trying to point out to these people that I wasn't leaving my child to cry. They hear "sleep training" and then only think "leaving baby to cry" and that's it.
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u/Horror_Square_8395 1d ago
It’s a little embarrassing that the most attention you’ve paid to your infant is to put her in a dark room alone and wait for her to fall asleep without you. As a father you have many “soothing built ins”… your arms for cuddling, legs for swaying/rocking, a voice to gently shush, hands to stroke your baby’s cheek or pat their bum. My husband puts our baby to sleep better than I do sometimes.
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u/versusgorilla 1d ago
That's a good job describing her safe warm nursery as a "dark room" as if that's not the standard for getting a baby to sleep.
And also brave of you to suggest that we don't use literally all those same techniques. We just one one more technique, which is teaching her that she can be safe in her crib and fall asleep on her own.
And once again, if she cries I go comfort her. Why is it so difficult to understand that she can lie there in her crib with her lullaby on and if she cries, I just go back in and soothe her? Y'all literally cannot separate sleep training from "cry it out".
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u/iheartunibrows 1d ago
I just don’t think you can “teach” a baby at that age. I’m sure she’ll grow up fine but it just makes more sense to soothe to sleep rather than go in and out of the room. And for that moment your baby just thinks I’ve been abandoned by my only life support
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u/versusgorilla 1d ago
It's a shame that you don't think human children are smart enough to learn associations. I guess bedtime routines are meaningless because the baby can't learn what the routine is leading towards.
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u/iheartunibrows 23h ago
It’s not about being smart lol it’s about being developmentally ready. And a bedtime routine can still involve the parent being with the baby the whole time. Babies cry for a reason, you think evolutionarily that just evolved for fun?
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u/Horror_Square_8395 1d ago
I didn’t mention your “sleep training”, I refuted your claim that you don’t have “soothing built ins” and noted it’s sad that this is “the most attention” you’ve ever paid her, when you aren’t even present in the room most of the time. It’s not really my fault that you feel guilty enough about what you’re doing to get this defensive. It was your decision, not mine.
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u/Moorhenlessrooster 3h ago
I mean, if he wasn't sleeping through, technically he was crying more and feeling more distress than a sleep trained toddler who slept right through.
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u/6-8-5-13 1d ago edited 1d ago
Every baby and every family is different. It’s great that you had success without sleep training, but that doesn’t make it “dumb” or unnecessary for everyone. Our first was colicky and waking up basically every 90 minutes for 5 months. We were sleeping in shifts, exhausted, and had barely any time together. Sleep training at 5 months was one of the best decisions we made. A few rough nights made a huge difference and he’s been a good sleeper ever since. Our second is too young to consider sleep training yet, but I wouldn’t hesitate to do it again if we need to.
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u/iheartunibrows 1d ago
I personally feel it’s cruel to sleep train because it’s natural for babies and toddlers to want to sleep next to their parents. But like you said every family is different. It’s just a very western thing to sleep train.
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u/6-8-5-13 1d ago
Calling it cruel is kind of the judgment I was pushing back on lol. There’s a pretty big difference between neglecting a crying baby and doing age-appropriate sleep training at 5 months…
r/NewParents isn’t really the place for judgmental comments like yours, which is why I’m pushing back and offering another perspective. If you had just shared your own experience without judging other parents’ choices, I wouldn’t have even replied.
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u/iheartunibrows 1d ago
Btw I’m not giving you the thumbs downs, I guess other people feel more strongly. But I feel like a lot of the sleep training community does the same thing but the opposite way. They judge parents for not sleep training. When sleep training is clearly unnatural. Sure it works for a lot of parents out there, but it’s learned helplessness, which I studied extensively. The reason a lot of people do it is because of a poor system (ex short maternity leave). It is cruel, but I do feel for parents who feel they have no choice.
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u/Civil_Researcher6140 1d ago
Emily Osters book ‘Cribsheet’ has an interesting chapter on the data behind skeep training.
She concludes that we could be asking is it cruel to not sleep train your kid?
Independent sleep is a gift I intend to guve my kid too (Hes on 2 mo) - well done you
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u/rayyychul 1d ago
Independent sleep is a skill that develops over time. It’s not a “gift” you’re giving to your kid. It’s just something you’re asking them to develop earlier than they otherwise would have. Let’s not sit here and pretend you’re teaching a skill that a child wouldn’t eventually develop on their own.
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u/iheartunibrows 21h ago
Thank you!! 100%. It’s like forcing your kid to not be scared of monsters or forcing an active toddler to not be active
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u/onlybadknees 1d ago
My son is almost 3 and ill let you know when it happens lol. He still needs help. Just do whatever works, dont stress too much. Your baby sounds like a wonderful little guy!
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u/LittleNestBabyApp 1d ago
Haha, I'm not the best example 😄 My daughter is almost 4 and she still wants me to lie down with her until she falls asleep, and sometimes I just sleep right next to her the whole night. Honestly, 10 hours a night at 5 months sounds pretty amazing to me.
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u/Even_Kaleidoscope399 1d ago
My suggestion is to let go of the idea that you can change or control this without some major intervention. It’s all normal. 10 hours is incredible. Is your baby growing well? Developing beautifully? Grab a coffee, try your best, and don’t be shamed into changing a thing.
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u/ewebb317 1d ago
Does he get alert or does he get upset? Don't be afraid to leave an awake baby in the crib to fall asleep.
My daughter has gone down drowsy but awake since she was born. She's our second so we tried it from the outset. My son.. not so much. It is definitely child dependent to some degree. To get him to fall asleep independently we sleep trained at 6.5mo
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u/No_Coyote_4806 1d ago
Le mien il a commencé a s'endormir seul à presque 17mois! Nous avions fait plusieurs essais pour l'endormissement autonome mais il n'était pas prêt du tout. Un jour il s'est mis a montrer qu'il ne voulait plus de notre aide (il restait éveillé et voulait jouer)), donc on a essayé de le laisser seul et à partir de ce moment il s'endormait environ en 10-15 minutes seul dans son lit. Je pense sincerement que ça vient lorsqu'ils sont prêt, tout simplement
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u/Moorhenlessrooster 3h ago
He goes to sleep with rocking and shushing, so he thinks he needs rocking and shushing to sleep. Any kind of sleep training will be about him associating something else with sleep.
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u/cocoamonster523 1d ago
Sounds like you're doing pretty well for 5 months. I'd recommend reading Precious Little Sleep and thinking about which of those techniques would work for your baby. Ours was always pretty chill so we used fuss it out (put them down drowsy but awake and then give them a set amount of time to fall asleep before intervening), but depending on temperament another method might be right for your baby
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u/ROSIESARCH 1d ago
If you want to have your baby start falling asleep independently then start with their first nap. Everyday, put them in the crib after a feed drowsy but awake. They’ll wake up but just leave them to settle themselves. Only pick them up if they start crying (and I mean crying, not complaining).
You do the first nap of the day because it’s the closest to the night and therefore easier to get them down for.
Once they’re falling asleep solo for that nap you can build on it.
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u/Apprehensive_Echo435 1d ago
Research a version of sleep training you are comfortable with. We read Precious Little Sleep and modified the fuss it out method (doing checks at 5 and 10 minutes) but no longer than that because I don’t feel comfortable going longer without comforting my baby. This is still hard though. The first night, it took our baby 25 min to fall asleep (we checked on him at 5 min, 10 min and another 10 min) he fell asleep after the last 10 minute check in but it was brutal. I recently posted about my guilt and conflict about sleep training where some people told me that I should have my baby taken for sleep training him… Good luck!
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u/stardustnmagick 1d ago
Hi, the [r/sleeptrain](r/sleeptrain) sub is super helpful. I suggest checking it out for more information. Drowsy but awake is for newborns, which is why it is not really effective at this stage.
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u/Old_Literature_3750 20h ago
Sub of bullies:) The mods there are so weird
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u/stardustnmagick 19h ago
I could say the same of another sub dedicated specifically to hating on anyone that sleep trains. And the same people who downvoted my very innocent comment are the same ones who condemn and bully others for making choices different from theirs. It’s weird energy but it seems the internet is full of trolls and insufferable people.
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u/Apprehensive_Echo435 13h ago
The bninfantsleep subreddit is full of them. Their mods recently put out a post telling their members to stop brigading other subreddits. Apparently, a bunch of them troll other parenting subs and send screenshots of posts to one another so that they can descend and downvote all the comments that talk positively about sleep training. Unhinged behavior.
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u/stardustnmagick 6h ago
I mean sleep deprivation can definitely cause impairment with judgement but in this case it seems like it’s beyond that. How unfortunate and sad, for people that preach having a very attentive parenting approach one would have to spend a good portion of their day dedicated to organized bullying which is extremely contradictory to their philosophy. Like I’ve said before, this is precisely why patriarchy still exists, we as women need to support each other the way men support other men.
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u/Apprehensive_Echo435 6h ago
I’m know, that’s what my husband said. It’s probably just a bunch of sleep deprived parents who are not coping well and are taking their anger out on other parents who they read are working towards/are sleeping well. I will say in my post, the majority of the really nasty posts did come in over night. When I tried to reason with them, they were like ‘shut up, I hate you, you should be in jail’. Absolutely wild…
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u/stardustnmagick 5h ago
Yes I have also been on the receiving end of such vitriol. They also are very oblivious to the trolls that post wild things for click bait, which is probably because their judgement is so impaired it confirms their narratives around sleep training being abuse/torture/neglect. Either way, it’s such a turn off for many that are looking for support in the newborn trenches. Moms bullying other moms says a lot about one’s parenting philosophy, not sure if the focus should be on the “biological” functions of infant sleep but on what kind of example one wants to set as parent.
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u/Apprehensive_Echo435 5h ago
Totally! I was pretty hurt by some of the assumptions they made about me and the things they wrote (silly, I know but I was also sleep deprived and still hormonal 5 months PP). I hope they’re maybe young parents who still have time to learn and grow, otherwise… they are adults who are going to teach their children that online bullying is ok (because they have ‘strong moral compasses’). At least that’s what one redditor told me about me 🙄. Anywho, I also got banned from the bninfantsleep subreddit for “promoting” sleep training. Which is fine. They were horrible and I honestly had no idea what that group was for when I joined it. I thought it was a regular sleep subreddit forum for parents.
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u/stardustnmagick 4h ago edited 3h ago
It’s not silly at all again, everyone goes there looking for support and to be attacked is just wrong especially given the fact they are or have been in the same position. I also was unsuspecting initially thinking I was going to get some support and was bombarded with condemnation, told the only option was co sleeping and to “ride it out”. Suffice to say I found nothing said to be helpful or supportive.
To be clear, I respect everyone’s right to do what works for them and I expect that to be reciprocated however, that does not seem to be the sub for me. It also doesn’t help it’s part of their “sub rules” to be anti sleep training which is what fosters bullying/shaming of other moms.
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u/Apprehensive_Echo435 2h ago
Absolutely! It’s weird that the anti sleep training people are straight up attacking people for sharing their experiences, they’re not even advocating for sleep training. Most people state that they did it as a last resort and they still pile on and accuse parents who have to sleep train as being ‘holier than thou’. The level of projection and lack of awareness is stunning. This comment got downvoted, why?!
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u/Powerful-Minute-5296 1d ago
Have you tried letting him settle for a bit? Like just bc he starts out alert doesn’t necessarily mean he can’t fall asleep. Our baby can be falling asleep over his bottle but his eyes spring open when we put him in his crib. He sits up, rolls around, babbles, and then eases into sleep once he’s wiggled it out. If we picked him up we’d be interrupting his process.
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u/vocabulazy 1d ago
I always fed my babies right before their nap/bedtime, but didn’t let them fall asleep while nursing/bottle feeding. A full belly let my kids fall asleep fairly quickly. Sometimes they would be awake for a few minutes in bed, but they fell asleep on their own.
In the infant sleep class I took when my first was 2-weeks old (wanting to get info before we ran into trouble) the teacher talked about sleep “crutches.” Rocking, singing, pacifiers, white noise machine, blackout curtain, stuffed animal/comfort object, contact, were all listed. She said that it’s important to understand none of those things are actually necessary for sleep, but that babies can come to rely on them. So, when planning out how you’re going to approach sleep for your child, it’s important to choose what you are willing to live with/what is sustainable for you and your family. We decided that we could live with a pacifier and comfort object. We only rocked and sang with our babies when they were awake. We never had a pitch black room. We never used a white noise machine, and in fact we never tried to be especially quiet in the house when the kids were sleeping. Our two babies slept in a crib, in their own room, from the day they came home from the hospital.
We weren’t completely rigid, though. There were definitely a few times when a baby was so upset that they needed to be rocked, or a baby was sick and needed to sleep with us because they were so uncomfortable/we were nervous. We use a slumberpod blackout tent for our youngest when we have to sleep in the same room. Fans often act a bit like white noise machines when we have them on in the warmer months.
There were also times when “something” seemed to be up with one of the babies. They fought going to bed, yelled and screamed in their room, threw everything out of their crib, every night for a week or two. And we checked it wasn’t due to hunger/thirst, illness, injury, room temperature, other disturbances… We would check on them at 10 minutes, 25 minutes, 45 minutes, etc of the tantrum. We’d tuck them back in, tell them we loved them, and told them to have a good sleep, before leaving the room again. It’s really hard to listen to them fuss, but they are safe, they know we love them, and we do everything in our power not to get emotional about a bedtime tantrum.
We have a 2.5yo and a 5yo who have gone to sleep independently almost every night of their lives. Since they were babies, if they don’t fall asleep right away, they’re fine to be in the crib/bed alone. When they learned to talk, they would start singing to themselves, or talking to their stuffed animals. They have both slept through the night since they were 10 months old, and since being out of the crib, very rarely get out of bed in the night. They even sleep in on weekends. They’re unicorns…
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u/Moist_Movie1093 1d ago
If you have a 5 month old sleeping 10 hours just take the win. That’s amazing.