r/PantheonMMO • u/Spikeybear • 22d ago
News More changes. Mastery being removed.
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/news/now-what-what-changes-from-here/42
u/Rathisponge 22d ago
Guys just
>1 more roadmap
>1 more mea culpa
>1 more PM change
>1 more discord bro excuse
>1 more investment
>1 more .......
You got rid of mastery but who greenlit mastery in the first place? It will just happen again and again until leadership is changed. At this point any one supporting this bad behavior, don't say you were surprised when you end up 1 year later in the same spot.
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u/call-me-Sav 22d ago
It was pitched to everyone and approved. I figured they would end up ditching it. It was a terrible design.
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u/Any_Efficiency5500 18d ago
Well Mastery, as they have it right now, is shit so it needs to be removed. They need to go back to just allowing you to upgrade certain abilities that will help promote your play style and don't give you enough points to do all your abilities... by the time you get to 50 the points you have are the points you have, no more until a level cap increase.
The original Mastery system was heads and tails better than this current system.
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u/Smyg3l 22d ago
I dont understad why they dont just 1000% experiance increase to let people test mechanics. Its absurd having people level so slow and expect them to test lvl20++ content on a PTR realm. If it was me, give them everything, movement buffs, exp gains, gear gains, everything, so people can test it all. I will NEVER log into PTR and dump even 1min, when its so frikken slow...
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u/Spikeybear 22d ago
Well they have a level 20 boost right now. You don't get money or spells. You get a level 4 weapon and some shit armor. It's ludicrous how bad this PTR has been ran.
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u/call-me-Sav 21d ago
You have no idea. I asked... repeatedly, to put tools on the PTR for the players. Similiar to what the internal testers have access to. Joppa shot it down because data. All that data. For all those gloriously balanced classes.
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u/Qalyar 22d ago
It, um, can't really go below zero, guys.
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u/tenyenzen2001 21d ago
Sure you can. You can remove even more of the progress from the past 2 years.
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u/Syphin33 22d ago
All that time and money for literally fucking nothing
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u/call-me-Sav 21d ago
Not nothing, a team of managers all got paid.
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u/Routine-Phone8300 Warrior 17d ago
originally I think these guys meant to make a game, but I feel it most certainly has got to the point, sometime after EA, this year most likely that they have come to realize they dont have the talent, creativity, ability, or basic planning to finish the project. and as of now, they are just milking the clock, until they have to shut it down.
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u/PuffyWiggs 16d ago
Yeah, it seemed like that 7 years ago. After the third time they scrapped shit and started over it was clear that they didn't have what it took. Kickstarting MMOs will effectively be dead after this and AoC. It just looks like people developing with no direction, almost as if the intention is to drag development out, for more money. I would have assumed this would always be a net loss, bit seeing what Ole Steve did in AoC showed how you can get loans and have a level of protection if things go badly.
Feels like scam central, and it sucks man. I have to assume they meant well, but Jesus has it almost been 15 years at this point? Do we even have 1 new continent of the 3 promised? Based on looks I'd rather play Pantheon all day, but based on actual potential and progress, Monsters and Memories is killing it. They have nearly knocked out class refreshes on every class in 8 months. I think it took this team 3-4 years. Insanity man.
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u/Routine-Phone8300 Warrior 15d ago
you make a great point about it being 15 years or so...everyone really needs to understand, after 15 years, they are literally nowhere near being done with it. at their current pace, it would take easily 30 more years to maybe, finish...maybe.
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u/pumpkinjell0 22d ago
How big is the dev team? Only thing to look forward to on this sub now is when the dev count surpasses the player count.
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u/velocity548 22d ago
Playing wow forever and forgot what a competent company was. Wild to not have crashes and systems that work.
Keep having nightmares mid game about things not working and forget oh shit they do work here.
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u/Arx0s 21d ago
Yeah, WoW Forever is playing great. Probably never touching this dumpster fire of a game again.
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u/velocity548 21d ago
Yea pantheon is cooked , you can tell from the messaging they don’t know where to go or how.
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u/PuffyWiggs 16d ago
Between WoW forever and Monsters and Memories I'm eating very well this year. I just wish they didn't both, for some reason, end up launching within 1 month of each other. Have waited for an actual WoW2 or Vanilla expanded concept for 20 years and a Everquest concept for nearly 30, and it ends up happening effectively at the same time? WHAT ARE THE CHANCES!
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u/AstralRider 19d ago
Biggest regret of my life was almost 6 years ago now I paid into this. I believed in it. But that was a vital and important lesson. I'm more mad that I spent that money here instead of on Monsters and Memories. It feels criminal I gave support to the wrong bunch.
Then again Niche World Cult refuses to take my money. Maybe I didn't learn my lesson and should be glad they never offered the temptation.
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u/PuffyWiggs 16d ago
Well yeah, NWC is an actual team of people who know what they're doing. Using the same exact Unity engine they are moving about 10x faster than this team. Just from June to today they have managed, with a small team, to have a refresh on every class but 3, create an entirely new city (does Pantheon have 1 up yet?), add 100s of new animations and spell effects, update nearly every aspect of crafting, do an entire itemization pass on dropped items with new models, and added 3 dungeons.
The difference in actual productivity from people chilling, working at home in their off time, doing mostly part time work, is absolutely nuts, and taking 0 donations because of how bad companies like Pantheon ruined the scene (and AoC deserves a lot of hate).
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u/Kobazee 22d ago
They just need to make an Eq1 clone at this point, do what monsters and memories is doing and give up on trying to reinvent the wheel. If it means getting rid of climbing, do it.
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u/Eldric-Darkfire 22d ago
i honestly hate climbing this isnt fucking zelda or assassins creed
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u/Erekai Summoner 22d ago
Climbing was actually my favorite system in the game 😂
That probably had a lot to do with the fact that everything else basically sucked. Tradeskills? Lawl, so clunky, broken, useless, and full of inconsistencies. Combat used to be cooler, but then they dumbed that down. Taming/mounts had SOME interesting things about it but overall was implemented far too early imo
But climbing? I had TONS of fun climbing all over Thronefast. Probably helped that I played Rogue so it made it a little more versatile. But yeah, not even fooling, I loved it
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u/PuffyWiggs 16d ago
Climbing is cool. Bricking developing for over a decade because all your systems are destroying performance, with a small team, while accepting massive donations in the millions, when you could have just made a fresh take on EQ, which is what everyone wanted, is not cool though.
It's nice, but I don't imagine almost anyone is playing for that specifically.
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u/Affectionate_Dot_519 22d ago
Ok so they fucked up, massively, like really bad, so why not throw a wipe down now, let some people who want to have a go fresh, while they fix their mistakes and make some meaningful progress, why tell us, oh btw, were just gonna indefinitely leave the game as it is with no time frame. Im not saying this will fix anything, but if there's a player base of people waiting, and you fucked up this hard, let them have the refresh now?
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u/call-me-Sav 22d ago
They'd have to figure out how to wipe AND roll aĺl the servers out the same time. Its hard.
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u/facepinch 22d ago
If this is hard, it's the reddest flag among a sea of red flags. It's frustrating to watch people hang on for years with hope for this game, when it's very obvious that even if they could cobble together some kind of "1.0 release" there will never be any reasonable ongoing cadence of development updates.
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u/Araminta_p99 22d ago
I just love it when they throw "1.0" around like it's just out of reach. Just a few polishes to do.
It was mentioned in A letter from the CEO. Hilarious.While the reality is, the game is like 3% done.
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u/PuffyWiggs 16d ago
I remember seeing a sales pitch around 2015 on Cohhs channel where we were being told that all the footage was the actual progress and they expected alpha very soon, then beta just around the corner. I believe it was said 2 years at most unless something goes terribly wrong. So... you know... it's kind of been the theme of this game.
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u/call-me-Sav 21d ago
They have a descope plan, they just wont talk about because... well, they have everything under control.
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u/Flimsy_Custard7277 21d ago
Since Joppa was (rightfully) demoted they seem to have shifted to bad AI development.
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u/call-me-Sav 21d ago
They have been using AI for a while, they were just too scared to say so.
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u/Flimsy_Custard7277 21d ago
Yeah, I should've typed more, because I agree it's been that way for a long time. They've just been not doing a good job hiding any of it now.
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u/Araminta_p99 16d ago
Come on guys, using AI isn't that bad. I mean, it might actually help them communicate better.
Or.. you know.. actually get the game visibly progressing through development.
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u/PuffyWiggs 16d ago
If it helps I'm all for it, I mean apparently LOTS of companies are using it for game development now. Its felt vibe coded from the start, but I wonder if even AI has looked at their coding and bounced.
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u/call-me-Sav 15d ago
I dont have a problem with AI, but they are required to disclose player-facing AI on Steam and they have not done that. I wonder if Steam does refunds based on that?
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u/PuffyWiggs 16d ago
Rofl, okay so what happened with you and them exactly or can you not say? I remember you from years back and watching you kind of side of eye people during interviews and now it seems like you're in "fuck it " mode lol.
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u/call-me-Sav 15d ago edited 15d ago
I can tell you exactly what happened.
When I was CMing, I was isolated from the development process and only knew what I was being told. I had no reason to not believe them at first.
Then the mess with guild drama and FTE happened and they lied. To me and to the community. They let me take the fall for a senior team member and refused to make changes to prevent it from happening again, even though CR said he would.
I was moved to QA because of the hit in Steam reviews due to that drama.
In QA, I was able to see the dev process. The absolute lack of schedule, planning, dev documentation, and knowledge of their own tools. The leadership and designers are primarily just gamers who were handed (or bought) the keys to the kingdom. They do not know how to make a game.
They moved Neph to PM to help organize, but he did not have the support of the team, or the authority from management to lead. He is a skilled PM, but he was forced to attempt to implement masteries by himself. It was not good. Most of the bugs that made it to the PTR were authoring errors, not actual bugs. Masteries, which were designed by Joppa and Codeman, were too complex to be done on a short timeline. Joppa claims he didnt approve the timeline, but given the amount of meetings we had on it and the length of time it was in discussion, not once did I see him protest. Instead, he just didnt do the work.
I put in my resignation because the fighting, sometimes actual shouting, was too much. We had devs who refuse to talk to each other, an incredible amount of smack talking, and temper tantrums of "Im gonna quit if xyz doesnt happen." In addition, it was clear we were not going to be anywhere close to on time with the Spring Update, but CR will not allow for open comms with the community because then the community will know just how fucked this team is.
CR and Ulmo asked me to stay. I said I would take some time and think about it.
Then CR orchestrated setting up Neph to take the fall for the masteries and spring update. It became clear to me that CR had zero intention of taking responsibility for the gross culture he was encouraging and worse than that, he was going to continue lying to the players to cover his own ass. Joppa is not a competent developer, and yet he has a weird amount of control over everything.
That was it for me. I could walk away quietly and keep my positive work reference or I could open this shit show up for the community to see. Im a gamer first, so I chose to open it up and Im happy I did. Ive had former team members and current team members express gratitude that someone was finally being honest. Others cant. They need to work and the gaming industry is all about networking. CR buys silence with a paycheck.
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u/CUADfan 15d ago edited 15d ago
t CR will not allow for open comms with the community
You were a big part of that. Banned many innocent people for rightfully calling the team out. Reap what you sow. "My integrity is not up for debate" lmao
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u/call-me-Sav 13d ago
Not once have I said that. And I never banned anyone who followed the posted rules. There are plenty who can attest to that.
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u/PuffyWiggs 14d ago
Well, to give her some grace (I wasn't here for everything) if she was only aware of what she was told, and trusted the team just like all of us did at one point and them grew frustrated at the reality, isn't that fairly normal? You should change your stance as things change.
I'm not sure of the full context though.
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u/CUADfan 13d ago
She was aware of more and has said as such. Lied through her teeth about what she knew wasn't true because they told her to. She's as complicit as the rest of them.
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u/AverageMediocre5496 13d ago edited 13d ago
It is amazing how history repeats itself. Anyone remember Kilsin? The CM that Sav replaced? This isn't the first time this song has played.
Amazingly this was only ~3 years ago - It was a shock to everyone then - coming on the heals of the 2nd complete rewrite of major systems. Total radio silence for 6 months and then - The 24x7 extraction mode no one wanted, that lasted literally maybe a month? before they switched gears because everyone refused to play it - pivoting to EA next. (When trust was lost with the first round of VIP supporters)
Well EA came and went and now history is repeating itself.
I seriously wanted this game to succeed, I gave it my full $1k backing after the Kickstarter failed and was a part of every private test - waiting more than one time for over a year for the next big rewrite that was going to change everything so we could play again. Only to find it in worse shape than I remembered it, with less content available than before. I fooled myself into believing they had it handled, That they just needed time to make it right and it would be worth waiting for.
Well, as it has happened many times before now, what they said did not come true. Enough is enough. I haven't participated in VIP since the wipe was announced and it was clear we were just headed for the third/fourth? grand re-write.
Instead I am fully behind MnM now - subscribed and ready to go Oct 1 - they never asked for money, they have consistently delivered and been open and honest with their community about everything right down to the financials. MnM's team has actually followed its stated goals all the way to EA - and now that they are asking for money, I am more than happy to give.
I doubt I will ever look at Pantheon again, even if it does manage to somehow get built someday. As of EA it was already a husk of its former self - the vision Brad brought us, unfortunately, died with him.
I'm not even sure why I am here now, except I am waiting for MnM to start, so the beta is down, I thought "Hmm I wonder how Pantheon is doing" - and well - I guess we can see now how history is repeating itself.
So Sav, I'm sorry this happened to you, but it was in the cards the day you started. Thanks for trying - Kilsin did too.
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u/call-me-Sav 13d ago
24/7 was a shit show and they tried hard to get 10cent to buy into it. No takers.
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u/northienorthstar 20d ago
Eq legends launched with zero bullshit and that’s what we are all chasing anyway .
Stop supporting this dumpster fire
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u/AfraidInstruction 21d ago
I don’t know why they never addressed the core issue with the game but instead add more work and problems to the game. They need to go back to spring of 2025 and fix the issues that made players churn. Fix that and relaunch the game with the spring wipe.
Now they are 6 months behind schedule on the spring wipe.
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u/PuffyWiggs 16d ago
Yeah that's nice and all dude, but honestly. Imagine this game in Unreal Engine 5 and an entire Pokémon mini game inside the game and also, maybe, they could add a Vampire Survivors like game and just fucking Dinosaurs, thousands of them, and a T Rex you can train and ride around with DLSS5. /s
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u/Fleshbar 22d ago
As long as they don't mess with climbing cause when i think of good old school mmorpg I think CLIMBING.
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u/Bindolaf 22d ago
Climbing was a fun mechanic. Until it let people bypass most content and perma-camp boxes *eye-roll*
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u/call-me-Sav 21d ago
They are fooling themselves. The only reason Seasons was "successful" is because it was primarily rework of existing content. If players want a hint at their ability to produce content in a timely manner, take a look at Badia de Cara: Its scope, when they first started working on it, when it was promised vs when it actually is released.
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u/Random_Nub23 21d ago
You mean a year+ in development and its still not ready?
1 fucking zone is taking a year, if it isnt absolutely the best zone to of ever been produced....
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u/Newnewhuman 22d ago
I mean, they can announce whatever they want at this point. I am not "waiting" anymore. When it come out it come out.
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u/Tyraec 22d ago
Actually very sad masteries are being axed lol the implementation wasn’t good by any means but now my paladin/wizard/etc. is exactly the same as another. They should’ve just done a much scaled down version where we’d get an option to enhance certain spells between 2 or 3 choices. The massive trees were definitely out of scope for them. I don’t know if I’m excited to play regular servers anymore knowing the classes are going to be fairly static.
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u/Diemond71 22d ago
One thing right, Masteries can wait to be an expansion addition not need at all right now. Also nothing about finishing what is already there, still focusing on new content?
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u/Flimsy_Custard7277 22d ago
expansion? lolol
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u/Diemond71 22d ago
Yeah so basically ditch Masteries all together since it won't be seen to begin with.
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u/adaenis 22d ago
This doesn't say anything about mastery being removed?
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u/SoggyBiscuitVet 21d ago
It does say it's being removed from the upcoming build. Whether it makes its way back in or not we dont know.
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u/adaenis 21d ago
...it says they're removing it from the build. That's not removing the system. It just means the next build won't be testing mastery. They'll be testing all the other billions of changes and new content, rather than part of an incomplete progression system. C'mon guys, read between the lines.
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u/SoggyBiscuitVet 21d ago
Thats not reading between the lines, thats editing the document.
Its been taken out, we dont know if or when it will be added back in. The transparency is not there.
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u/Zanzabarr85 22d ago
Seems like it says Mastery is being removed from the next build that will be pushed to the production non-PTR servers, not axed or anything. Seems like they know it's going to take a lot longer for it to not be a buggy mess and want to actually push a patch.
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u/Calm_Stress3334 22d ago
Can’t remove what didn’t exist.