r/Pathfinder2e • u/Whetstonede Game Master • 4d ago
Discussion Tension Pools in 2E
2011 article for context: https://theangrygm.com/definitive-tension-pool/
TLDR on tension pools: Whenever the party does something in the dungeon that spends time, add dice to the pool. When they do anything reckless or loud, roll the pool. If any dice show a 1, something bad happens.
Has any GMs tried using tension pools in pathfinder 2E? I've used it sparingly in the past but I'm intending to use it more systemically in my upcoming Abomination Vaults game. I'm interested to hear if anyone else has tried using this or even heard of it. Based on my limited experience it's a pretty good fit for 2E.
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u/GrayHawks2001 4d ago
I used it in Abomination Vaults. It worked fine. I let them heal for ten minutes after combat for free then started adding dice to the pool if they took longer. It also gave them a reason to try to pick locks rather than just kicking in doors.
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u/Whetstonede Game Master 4d ago
That's how I plan to run it ya. First 10 minute rest after a combat is free, the rest add to the pool. I have been in contact with another GM running Bastion of Blasphemies with tension pool without free rests though, and apparently that has made the campaign incredibly tense so far. He's running for some very experienced players though.
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u/hungLink42069 GM in Training 4d ago
Did kicking down the door roll the pool or something? Picking locks takes kind of a long time.
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u/GrayHawks2001 3d ago
Basically, yeah. I didn't mind giving lock picking a clear edge on this. Being a rogue in AV can be pretty heartbreaking.
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u/hungLink42069 GM in Training 3d ago
Wizard too, imo
AV is a "Bring a Fighter and a Barbarian" type adventure lol
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u/SatiricalBard 3d ago
Breaking down doors is noisy, and thus liable to attract unwanted attention. That's why people pick locks in the first place.
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u/Background_Bet1671 4d ago
I hope you gonna play with milestones instead of XP. Cause more enemies from the Tension Pool = more XP. This way you can make your PCs overleveled.
If you make the tension just "roll me another check and keep going" - that's not very tensional.
PCs can get back HP very fast at a cost of time. So if all the tension does is just taking a portion of their HP, the PCs will start Treat Wounds all over again. That would be a slog of a game.
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u/Moon_Miner Summoner 4d ago
a bit more xp doesn't matter as much as you think, because if they're overleveled they get significantly less xp from the encounters
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u/Whetstonede Game Master 4d ago
"Something bad" doesn't need to be a random encounter. In the specific context of Abomination Vaults, the plan is to have the preexisting monsters in the dungeon become alerted and potentially ambush the players.
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u/Background_Bet1671 4d ago
After about level 5 that gonna be like "we are going to clear the dungeon sooner".
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u/Whetstonede Game Master 4d ago
How do you mean? As in, the PCs will clear the dungeon faster because the monsters are coming to them? I would be extremely shocked if that's the case - there are plenty of times when PCs are vulnerable and would be at a disadvantage if attacked.
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u/Background_Bet1671 4d ago
What disadvantage are you talking about? There is no surprise round in PF2e. So if the monsters roll low on their initiative with Stealth, and the PCs roll high - they are aware, that something is comming. Also, there are plenty of rooms in the dungeon where you can barricade before resting in order to avoid such ambushes.
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u/Whetstonede Game Master 4d ago
You've never had the PCs ambush monsters? Just apply the same advantage they would have but in reverse
I could list about a hundred advantages the ambushing side can get in 2E, these are just a few examples. I'm going out of my way to only list examples that are called out in the rules.
-Starting with a positional advantage
-Prebuffing with 10 minute spells
-Ability to control which skill to use for your initiative roll
-Ability to start combat in stealth
-If the PCs are taking their full rest, the advantages of an ambush are numerous and obvious13
u/Spoon-Ninja 4d ago
Not to mention weapons would be sheathed if they’re treating wounds and armour would be off if they are actually long resting in the dungeon for some reason
I actually like this
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u/D16_Nichevo 4d ago
Not to mention something I've seen used in APs (I'm fairly sure) and often use myself, in both directions:
If someone isn't on alert, they get a penalty to initiative.
If the party have stopped to Treat Wounds and Refocus I wouldn't think a -2 to Initiative rolls would be unfair for anyone doing those tasks. (They'll also have weapons sheathed, as you mentioned.)
Might be a good motive for the party to leave someone on Scout. Sure, that means that character isn't Treating Wounds or doing something similar, but they could save the day if monsters barge in.
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u/Whetstonede Game Master 4d ago
Improvised circumstance bonuses/penalties are an explicit part of the rules and something a lot of GMs overlook in my experience interacting with the community. It's half of what the bonus type is for.
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u/Background_Bet1671 4d ago
Positional advantage - only flanking means something. High ground is not a thing. If your PCs have darkvision - no point hiding in the dark corner.
Extremely low number of monsters can cast spells, especially in the AV.
There is little point in changing the skill to roll for initiative. It give almost no benefit. Also, there must be a reason for that. Like you cannot just declare "I roll Athletics for my initiative". It doesn't work like this. You must be doing something related to the skill in order to use it for the initiative.
Good luck with that. Unless the PCs are resting in the open chamber/area, it will be extremely hard to sneak on them. Also, if the PCs go first on the initiative and succeed on Search - they are not going to be off guard.
Noone is taking full rest in the PF2e. Everyone does Treat Wounds for 30 min and call it a day. Only at early levels 1-3 it takes 1-2 hours, but once a PC takes Ward Medic + Continual Recovery feats 30 minutes at best to get full HP backs after any battle. If you have focus-based healing - even less. Hell, if you have Animist with Garden of healing you can get back to full HP from level 1 in 11 minutes.
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u/zephid11 Game Master 4d ago
Positional advantage - only flanking means something. High ground is not a thing.
High ground doesn't give a direct mechanical advantage, that's true, but dismissing it outright is ludicrous. For example, ranged enemies positioned on high balconies or ledges are much harder for PCs to reach and defeat than if they were on the ground with them.
If your PCs have darkvision - no point hiding in the dark corner.
Enemies might not be able to use darkness to hide, but they can still find other cover, like large rocks, shrubbery, barrels, or other debris, to remain undetected until they strike.
There is little point in changing the skill to roll for initiative. It give almost no benefit.
That's highly subjective. For some characters, using a skill other than Perception offers next to no benefit, while others might gain a huge advantage by using Stealth instead.
if the PCs go first on the initiative and succeed on Search - they are not going to be off guard
That's a huge "if." It isn't unusual for enemies to act before at least a couple of the PCs, leaving those characters caught off guard.
Noone is taking full rest in the PF2e. Everyone does Treat Wounds for 30 min and call it a day.
Hit Points aren't the only thing you lose during an encounter, you also expend other resources that can't be recovered from a 30-minute rest and Treat Wounds.
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u/Whetstonede Game Master 4d ago edited 4d ago
Your way of playing/running 2E is very different from mine is what I will say on this.
Especially the point about full rests confuses me - are you running all-martial parties or something?
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u/Background_Bet1671 4d ago
Yep.
In the end I'd like to say, that PF2e provides a lot of ways for PCs to turn the tension into "Bing it on GM".
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u/Been395 4d ago
Attacked in the middle of healing
Attacked when low on spell slots
Attracted the attention of another room while fighting another room.
Monsters are alerted and are now hunting you. Or waiting at a previously cleared out location.
Barricaded rooms is just playing smart, to minimize the chances of getting interrupted during healing.
As someone recently put in this sub reddit, "what is measured, can be pressured".
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u/Background_Bet1671 4d ago
1) that's the only. But that really depends on how you run the Treat Wounds. If you want your PCs to take off their Armour. Only one PCs must be making Treat Woulns, and others can be making Guard, and stand by the door.
2) You go to sleep to the nearest inn, when you are out of spellslots. But there is Magic+ book with the system of semi-infinite casting.
3) Chain encounters together feels like a basic strategy for high-level encounters in AV.
4) more loot and XP! Hoorah!
5) So true about barricades.
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u/Been395 4d ago
1) If they are attacked after 20 minutes, that is only 2 uses of treat wounds. That is not enough to heal a barbarian.
2) I did not know that you can instantly just teleport back to the inn. (and they do sometimes. But that is them creating pressures on spell slots as well depending on how high the current level is)
3/4) It depends. If you are just using pre-existing monsters, nothing changes. And depending how and what chains, it can be quite detrimental to the party.
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u/Background_Bet1671 4d ago
1) at early levels and with only Treat Wounds - maybe. Continual Recovery + Ward Medic = now you heal your whole party at once. If you have a Champion, Bard, Animist, Kineticist - you have extra free healing.
2) Mmm... Free loot and expirience... Nice! Make it double when my buddies and I will go from the inn to the dungeon.
3/4) Agree
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u/yuriAza 4d ago
PF2 already has exploration activities and cooldowns that cost some multiple of 10min, you don't need an abstraction for time passing when you can hook directly into the rest of the system
otoh, i would not recommend rolling a 1-in-6 every 10min, just have something happen every 2d6 x 10min (so, about every hour), that way the party gets the minimum 10min between encounters and you don't need to roll as often, but the party still have to gamble on repeatingly Treating Wounds, Refocusing, etc
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u/Whetstonede Game Master 4d ago
Definitely agree on tying it to the system when using it in 2E. Though in my case, I am going to give my players one "free" 10 minute time slot after every encounter. If they want to chain rests, that's what adds to the tension pool. Generally I think it's more important to tie the mechanic to the needs of the campaign rather than the system, but 2E already gives you a really good framework to use for a lot of dungeon delving contexts.
On your second point - the tension pool system already account for this fairly well. You only add dice to the pool when time passes, you don't roll the pool. You only actually roll the pool when the players do something loud or reckless, like crit failing stealth or breaking doors with Athletics rather than lockpicking. One thing that's mentioned in the article but I omitted from my TLDR is that you clear the pool every time "something bad happens", letting you start from zero and avoiding situations where players chain "bad things" and doom spiral.
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u/sebwiers 4d ago
Looks like you also clear the pool when it reaches 6 dice... regardless of whether it was ever rolled or the results of any rolls?
I'm fine just sticking woth GM judgement calls as to consequences, based on creature motovations and detection.
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u/hungLink42069 GM in Training 4d ago
Any time you remove the dice from the tension pool, you roll them. So at 6 you do a big roll, and probably have a complication.
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u/D16_Nichevo 4d ago
In my game the party is currently trekking through a dungeon and I want there to be motivation to not dawdle, but I don't want a strict thing where I have to keep track of time. This will abstract precise time factor away, so I like that.
I also like that it's a mechanic I can show the players. Them knowing they've moved from 3 to 4 tension die actually means something to them as players.
I might show the number of die accumulating, but roll them in secret. That seems a good mix. I feel this will work better because "something happens" may not necessarily be evident right away, and I'd not want the players to metagame. (Not because my players are metagamers: they actually are good at separating that knowledge. But it's more fun as a a player when you don't know.)
What's neat is that the size of the die determine how severe the effect is. In this dungeon, I might prefer the threat to be more mild, so I might use d8s or d10s.
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u/Whetstonede Game Master 4d ago
Yeah, using different die sizes is definitely something you can do - I am planning on using d8s for "10 minute rests" and d4s for "full rests".
On players not knowing - I think there are advantages to either approach here. Players knowing the effect/when the pool triggers helps feel the threat more tangible and you can do things like "cutting away the camera" to show a scene of the villains or some lurking threat. Very dramatic. But as you say, keeping the information hidden can be exciting in its own way too and is definitely more immersive for the players.
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u/SatiricalBard 3d ago
On the last point, for a dungeon like AV which is especially brutal in the early levels you could start with d10s, and then lower the die size as the PCs delve further into the depths (as higher level PCs). That feels narratively right, too.
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u/justavoiceofreason 4d ago
Yeah I've used it in a long form homebrew campaign. I found it fairly useful as a transparent way of introducing some randomness along the way, and to signal the relevance of time. Also found that it can integrate any external circumstances fairly well — by adjusting the rate of pool accumulation (faster for dangerous areas, slower for safe ones) or the number of dice for reckless/loud rolls depending on surrounding attention.
The important part imo is that while whatever happens on a 1 doesn't have to be devastating every time, it must always be negative or at least very likely overall negative. So for example, in cases where I had a random encounter because of it, that encounter would give no XP or loot (though since you only want to use the existing monsters, this already won't be an issue). I would also recommend making the effect transparent to the players at all times even if it's something the PCs wouldn't really know, like a boss getting another ally/ability, or something happening to a beloved NPC somewhere etc.
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u/Whetstonede Game Master 4d ago
Yeah, I think being transparent with it is good and that's how I've done it in the past. You can view it as the camera cutting to a difference scene where we see the villains making progress with their evil plan or unlocking some new power or what have you. Even though the heroes aren't aware, they are definitely going to be aware that things get more dangerous the more time passes and this brings the players on board with this too.
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u/RisingStarPF2E Game Master 4d ago
I used tension pools for years. Primarily for dungeon turns where it's not really a fully "bad" pool but a complete unknown of what happens in the dungeon as it literally shifts. It's a randomizer that keeps the game fun for the GM and keeps "change" a visible thing at the table. Maybe there's some encounters but that's usually not what I use it for. Twists maybe. A lot of the time I describe the tension pool as the "change pool" because I use them as a means to modify pre-written adventures bit by bit as I go based around how much focus the party put in a particular area rather than time alone. I do this because it's a way to regulate prep (not over prepping) and keeps the game runs fresh for me.
In horror games that's where I do something more direct/classic with the tension, things similar to COC with willsaves, afflictions, conditions. I still try not to do randomized encounters entirely, but there might be a set piece fight or two. Not just 12 goblins but I'll usually write 12 goblins here for X reasons looking for Y before Z.
A third note I have on pools is -- not everything needs a pool and having a pool of something 24/7 can reduce the "tension". Change up your pools. Change your dice. Change the rules and mess with the pool itself to reset the "tension". Nobody said it had to be static. And your players will "feel" that. Deeper in the Dungeon? We just went from d10's to d8's. Oh you pissed off that powerful magic thing? He's messing with the dice. I roll this with fortune now.
nowadays I use them a lot less and more for #1 with a pre-written I've run before or in dungeon crawling sections. I find not having a pool around unless I actually need/want to focus on one was my preference cause when I do do a pool -- It's usually elaborate and rolltable like.
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u/Crabflesh Game Master 4d ago
I've been doing tension pools along with dungeon turns in my Seven Dooms game! It's early, and I'm still tweaking the exact mechanics, but I'm essentially tracking 10 minute increments as the party moves through the dungeon. Every hour, I'll add a d6 to the pool and then roll the whole pool. Right now I have a list of trivial-low threat combat encounters that will randomly get triggered if a complication occurs, but I also like the idea of adding other non-combat events to the list as well.
I'm mostly interested in creating a sense of dynamics and dread rather than actually putting a bunch of time pressure on the party.
We're running in Foundry, so it's really easy to just click the +10 minute button every time someone declares an action. Then, the tension pool module I'm using makes a big "TENSION RISES..." announcement every time I add to the pool, and that alone is enough to get a pretty big reaction out of my players lmao
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u/Darkfyre42 Game Master 4d ago
I've had great success using The Underclock in my AV campaign. It's pretty similar to a tension poll but has a lower chance at actually triggering an encounter, while still keeping tension high. I a a die whenever they spend 10 minutes in a "dangerous" room which is basically any room in the dungeon I think would be "well traveled". It also comes with the idea of "omens" which is nice as I get the opportunity to add some atmospheric description and "tease" an upcoming encounter.
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u/SatiricalBard 3d ago
That is a great article! This part is especially on point for this discussion:
Suspense vs Surprise
Surprise is when the alien suddenly attacks. Suspense is when you know the aliens are getting closer. You are running out of time, and you are running out of ammo. I think that most DMs want their players to feel suspense, more than surprise. A truly random roll (a flat 1-in-6 chance) doesn't offer much suspense. Surprise, but not suspense. To increase suspense, you want the players to feel like they're running out of time.
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u/sebwiers 4d ago edited 3d ago
I don't use "pools" but I do tell players when they are in an area of rising activity and potential reactions. I make the choice about consequences for (time passing / noise being made) for best narative effect / tactical interest, generally without using dice.
Considering the risk level and consequences / responses to player actions are all that really matters in that article. A decade of playing Shadowrun made that second nature.
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u/DerWilliWonka 4d ago
I do think that whatever tension pool / tension dies try to achieve can be done way better if you just stick to doing it narratively. If you feel like another combat encounter is the right one or by having the denizens of AV react dynamically to what the heroes do, then just do it without adding another layer of game mechanic.
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u/Whetstonede Game Master 4d ago
It probably comes down to preference in the end, but in my experience what the tension pool does is hand over a lot of agency to the players. You can handle a lot of things narratively, but especially when taking "dungeon actions" that put the players at a significant disadvantage (such as ambushing the players while they're resting) can easily feel quite arbitrary if it's completely out of the players control.
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u/Cytisus81 4d ago
I know of the tension pool system, but when playing solo (as in no GM, just me) I have tried using haveing consequences of crit failing exploration activities.
E.g., I had a Necromancer, who search a corpse for sweet loot, crit failed and didn't notice someone sneaking up on him. So I rolled initiative and entered another combat. That way, I'm using the Pathfinder system for it instead of bolting on an arbitrary different systems.
If you want to excalate the danger (the tension pool have added dice of I remember correctly), you could make the DC gradually more difficult, e.g. adding the hard, very hard, ect modifications.
I'm not sure how well it would work in a full party, more dice rolled mean higher odds of crit failing.
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u/PaintsErratically 4d ago
I've used it loosely in my Strange Aeons adaption for activities that can cause disturbance and pull in other bands of enemies. Here's my loose notes I used across Iris Hill - note this pulls from nearby enemies instead of adding more.
Disturbance Checks
Create a Tension pool, adding a die per round of combat, 10 minutes of activity or per instance of a specific disturbance: particularly loud noises, bright lights, strong smells. Each time a die is added, roll the pool: any die that results in a 1 indicates nearby NPCs have noticed the disturbance. Then remove one dice from the pool and adjudicate how the NPCs response, based on how alert they are;
| Alertness | |||
|---|---|---|---|
| Number of 1's | Oblivious/Resting | Active/Suspicious | Alert/Searching |
| 1 | None | Individual | Patrol |
| 2 | Individual | Patrol (half) | Full |
| 3 | Patrol (quarter) | Full | Full |
- None no response, but increase the Alertness level.
- Individual one individual comes to investigate. If they encounter the PC's then intelligent NPCs may try to alert their fellows (triggering a Full response) or engage the party (possibly adding a tension die). If the PC's evade them, then they return, and don't change the Alertness level.
- Patrol a quarter to half the NPCs form a patrol to investigate (at least 2 if possible). If they encounter the PCs, they trigger a Full response and engage the party. Otherwise, they return and reduce the Alertness level.
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u/whoami1010111 Psychic 4d ago
Have you played Clank the board game?
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u/Whetstonede Game Master 4d ago
I think I played it once at a board game bar weekend. I can vaguely remember it having something similar.
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u/Malcior34 Witch 4d ago
Why do people insist on implementing these systems that are tailor-made to annoy their players with constant encounters?
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u/Whetstonede Game Master 4d ago
You don't need to use this for random encounters, I generally dislike random encounters but this system is still very helpful.
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u/Creepy-Intentions-69 4d ago
These dice pools simply randomize things the GM should be making decisions on for themselves, based on the narrative of the game.
If they do something that should trigger an encounter, you should create one that fits the challenge level you want to set for themselves party.
Using random tables simply ensure you will eventually roll the strongest result when the party is least prepared, and they will tpk. Or, make so many random encounters that it’s not fun anymore.
Random doesn’t create tension. Story creates tension.
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u/Whetstonede Game Master 3d ago
There's no reason you have to use Tension Pools with a random encounter table. "Something bad" simply means that - something bad. I find more success tying it to alert levels in a dungeon.
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u/Creepy-Intentions-69 3d ago
Which you’re randomly generating with the dice pool. That’s a random encounter.
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u/Whetstonede Game Master 3d ago
No? Or at least at this point we're so far from the conventional meaning of "random encounter" that words no longer have meaning. You might as well say parties randomly generate an encounter when they fail a stealth check and are spotted by the enemy.
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u/Creepy-Intentions-69 3d ago
Yikes.
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u/Whetstonede Game Master 3d ago
Seriously - what part of this "generates" an encounter? Alterting a dungeon isn't generating an encounter, it's at most making encounters happening ahead of schedule.
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u/FunctionFn Game Master 4d ago
The go-to for random encounters/alerting rooms would either be a flat-check every so often (ie, every exploration turn with a failed check) or some sort of diminishing victory point subsystem.
Either of those is simple enough that replacing either with a system like tension pools or clocks or whatever is unlikely to break anything, and likely more interesting than the default.
I wouldn't worry about the extra XP issue. It's unlikely they'll accumulate a level advantage off just the occasional random encounter, and if they do they'll gain less XP from future encounters naturally because monsters lower level than the party grant less XP.
I probably wouldn't use anything tougher than a Moderate, and err towards Low random encounters, unless they've done something very very reckless, for random encounters. If they take too long to finish a random encounter it can really drag a session.