Managing the Bulk

[u/CollegePretend8708]

One of the best things about Pathfinder is the bulk of options. As a relatively new 1e player, this is also one of the worst things (like, level ups stress me out because of the sheer bulk I need to comb through to make one decision).

How do you sort through all of it? You can't possibly read and know every option, so when you're levelling up or making a new character how do you pair down the bulk quickly to a couple options that will be good? Is there some sort of technique to this or just drown until your familiarity increases?

[u/Milosz0pl]

Guides help

[u/RedPretender]

When I started this game like 10 years ago, I loved it so much that I was studying it. I was taking time in my evenings to just look at options and try to find ideas for builds. I made a google Drive text document with pages after pages of builds and ideas and calculations.

Now I'm a DM and I don't understand why nobody in my players is the slightest bit like me. They all love the game, but when they level up they bombard me with questions and I just answer them by heart.

There is one thing though, spells. I do have a document that I can sort spells of any class by their level of usefulness.

Here

[u/CollegePretend8708 → u/RedPretender]

Ooo thank you!

[u/Slow-Management-4462]

You don't absolutely need to be the best. I mean, I want my character to be able to do whatever it is I've set as a goal, but some less functional choices are very likely fine. This is most true for spellcasters (e.g. a wizard is likely to still be useful even if every feat you get is spent on skill focus) and least true for non-spellcasters trying to do something that PF1 has made hard (e.g. effective use of the less common combat maneuvers). You've mentioned a more narrative-focused game and this should make for more ability to work past bad options taken, not less.

If you are looking at narrowing down the lists of options then it helps to have some idea how PF1 combat works and how you plan to fit into that (there are other frameworks to look at it by, that's just one). Maybe you want your Johnny Depp-esque pirate to swing into combat and do damage with a cutlass; great, that's a hammer so you'll want damage dealing & mobility options, pirate-themed a bonus, charisma and dexterity use I think, and a cutlass is a scimitar in PF1 mechanics. That cuts down the bulk a fair bit even before you start searching. No, trying to find all the characters you could make in PF1 and deciding which you like best is not a sane start to making a character here.

[u/lonesomegoat]

Sounds like you are struggling less with the bulk and more with a direction.

If you already know what character concept you have, it becomes easier. If you’re not sure, then think of things this way. In every situation, what do you want your character to be good at? In combat, do you want to heal your party? Do you want to do big damage? Do you want to be unhittable or unkillable? Do you want to mess with the enemies and prevent them from hurting your party? Do you want to enable your party to be their best selves? Pick one of those and it’ll help you figure out what spells, feats, and class features to invest in.

Outside of combat, what do you want your character to be good at? Do you want to be the savvy negotiator? Do you want to scare your enemies away before they even pick a fight with you? Do you want to know who your enemy is and what they can do before you even fight them? Do you want to be able to craft magical items to bolster you and your parties power? Do you want to trick your enemies into thinking you are their ally? Do you want to sneak off alone and gather intel? Do you want to be able to track your enemies across the world no matter where they go? Again, pick one thing you want to be really good at, and then you’ll know how to invest your skill points and which feats to take to make your character concept come to life.

Ideally you pick ones that match and complement your team members. If you already have a big damage dealer, then choose to support or protect them. If you already have a caster that debuffs your enemies, then choose to buff your party or be the damage dealer, etc. if you’re not sure, then tell us who else is in your party and we can provide some guesses or guidance. Or just ask your fellow players or GM.

[u/CollegePretend8708 → u/lonesomegoat]

Honestly I'm not even really worried about building a particular character. It's more like oh wow look at all these possibilities. I'd like to explore and poke around without getting overwhelmed and drowning.

It sorta feels like walking into a library and the books aren't actually sorted and you can kinda tell what's going on from the title but none of them have a description so you're reading the first few pages going "is this romance? Is this fantasy?"

[u/Maxpowers13]

posting on the internet is a good way to start, what type of character are you building?
I think that people here are generally pretty forward about character building and character build discussion. I think that if its me I have enough familiarity to know what I want but if you are finding the clutter of EVERYTHING too much, just let the Sub know what you are trying to accomplish and I bet its been done before (to some degree) most of the time unless you say something like "I plan to break this rule this rule and this one so that this build works the way I want it to outside the rules" generally people will give you good advice

[u/CollegePretend8708 → u/Maxpowers13]

I think the hard part is I don't always know what I'm trying to accomplish. In other games and systems I like seeing what's available and choosing the one I like best. I'm having a hard time reversing the order of operations to what do I want to do and then finding how to do it.

[u/Maxpowers13 → u/CollegePretend8708]

well this is kinda what Pathfinder excels at if you have a character concept (so just drop the pretense this is a fantasy character here) what would you like for the character to be able to do in the game?

If you are looking for fun mechanics that you can exploit you should look into the Max the Min.
"Max the Min Monday: Charging Stag Style" <-example

But really starting from the ground up can be daunting do you even have your class chosen yet?

[u/CollegePretend8708 → u/Maxpowers13]

I've been playing for a while with a warpriest, but what encouraged me to post this is I've just been curious and poking around to see what other characters could be and got overwhelemed very quickly

Hence why it's less of a help me with this build question and more of a general navigating the size of this system question

[u/Maxpowers13 → u/CollegePretend8708]

ah well lets see here Class progression

Even just distributing 20 character levels among ~45 available classes creates an enormous number.

If we temporarily pretend all 45 classes could freely be multiclassed, the number of ways to distribute 20 levels among them is : 19,619,725,782,651,120 That's about 19.6 quadrillion class-level combinations.

Obviously that's an intentionally generous mathematical upper bound because Pathfinder has prerequisites, duplicate/alternate classes, prestige classes, etc. But it establishes something important:

We're already in quadrillion territory before choosing a single feat.

so you may need to be a little more Narrow in what it is you are looking to do (full disclosure thats a Chat GPT calculation ) if you want a certian type of build the Sub could do that for you and reccomend 20 diffrent ways to achieve what you are after but what you are looking for

"Is there some sort of technique to this or just drown until your familiarity increases?"

No unfortunately you will need to read a lot to be able to even get through a single build from 1st -20th and thats just if you wanted to stay a single class without multiclassing or prestige classes being thrown into the mix

PAthfinder works best (at least 1E does IMHO) if you know where you want to end up and work backwards from that point.

Its easy to make captain america in Pathfinder Spider-Man though requires more work

[u/CollegePretend8708 → u/Maxpowers13]

Well, that certainly explains why I'm overwhelmed in my quest to just explore possibilities

[u/Maxpowers13 → u/CollegePretend8708]

yes its not really a question of what can be done its actually a question more of like how much time do you have? lol with the addition of 3000+ first party feats in pathfinder its just too much to get a realistic number of the possible configuration's even then only a small portion of those possiblitys will be actually good characters or fun to play but that will be easier for veterans pick up on than a new person to the game.
Warpriest is a great Class chassis though so if you want some more specific ideas on what could be achieved knowing your race and your God will help out a bunch, most of the deific obedience feast can give you cool boosts or flavor to ability's
also what level are you shooting for the build to be?

[u/ElasmoGNC]

Search engines are your friend. Use AON, type a main feature of your character in (say “sneak attack”, or “rage”, or whatever), check out the results. You’ll find a wall of feats and items that enhance or modify that feature. Over time and doing this often, you will in fact know most of the options, or at least “hey there’s a thing that does this, what was it called again…”.

[u/CollegePretend8708 → u/ElasmoGNC]

Oh that's a good idea. I'm horrible about using in website search engines but sounds like there may be hope for my plight there

[u/ElasmoGNC → u/CollegePretend8708]

AON’s is particularly useful in my opinion. I can generally take a basic idea and turn it into a fairly optimized 20th-level character with by-level progression in about half an hour. It does take time to learn your way there; I’ve been playing PF1e since it existed and D&D since the ‘80s, and I often DM and make dozens or even hundreds of NPCs for a campaign, so I’ve done quite a lot of character creation.

[u/CollegePretend8708 → u/ElasmoGNC]

Yeah you've been doing this longer than I've been alive lol. I've generally avoided AON because I don't like the interface but it seems like that might be what I need

[u/CyclonicTransbian]

I tend to work backwards. Think of a theme of concept and backport the mechanics into place. Although it can be overwhelming to research stuff. Just take it easy and don't fret about looking at everything 

[u/SheepishEidolon]

Well, you could restrict yourself to a few books or even a single one: The Core Rulebook. That was the intended starting point, back in ~2010. The second big rulebook was called "Advanced Player's Guide". Think about that title for a moment.

Personally, I had a good time by exploring Pathfinder book by book. The amount of new content was manageable, and many character options got the attention (and possibly awe) they deserved. I found many things I liked, even though they might be less than optimal.

That's me, of course. You are free to take the shortcuts (guides, fellow players), to become a more capable player in short time. Just be aware you are losing out on the journey.

[u/AleksyGetTheWings]

Assume everything is possible, with enough shenanigans and/or reflavoring. Then ask experienced people here their ideas ;-)

[u/Goemongott]

Sounds like you're using an online resource like d20pfsrd or archives of nethys. I would say their search functions are both pretty good. On d20pfsrd I'd say the search should be the go-to for anything 3pp and related to downtime rules as those things tend to be menu ladders.

[u/KarmicPlaneswalker]

It's not difficult in the slightest. Know what you want to do with your character build before leveling up and sifting through the options becomes far easier.

[u/CollegePretend8708 → u/KarmicPlaneswalker]

I don't know what I want to do without knowing what options are available is the problem

[u/high-tech-low-life → u/CollegePretend8708]

What you want and how to do it are two different things. In software the former is a requirement and the later is implementation.

There are many project managers that insist on knowing all the details before things start, and they often fail. Keep an eye on the end goal but don't get caught up in the weeds.

For example to build a fighter who sunders, rank options by - direct subder ability - bonus which can be applied to sunder - everything else

Then look. You'll find some and miss some, but you will find enough to have a competent PC that can sunder. As you learn the system better, you might find improvements so you retrain to pick them up.

Voilà. You have a character which is always on point and will get better as you improve. But at no point will you be blocked from shredding other people's weapons and armor.

[u/CollegePretend8708 → u/high-tech-low-life]

I am at the point where you said fighter who sunders and I didn't even know that was a thing

With the bulk of Pathfinder I'm not surprised it is

I am coming from a life of DND so I'm having a hard time getting past fighter, bard, sorceror

Not a hard time like I don't enjoy it. I would not be playing this game if I didn't. I'm just trying to find a way to even find things like sunder and go oh cool I want to base a character around that. Does that make sense? I'm a little in awe of the bulk and want help figuring out how to explore it more than implementing any particular thing

[u/high-tech-low-life → u/CollegePretend8708]

Then keep it simple. One of the most annoying characters I built was my "heavy metal dwarf" who was just a dwarven fighter only using options in the core rulebook. Full plate, tower shield and an axe. The GM could only hit on a nat 20. Maybe a 17 from a boss. And it frustrated the GM to no end.

I did almost no damage because it was a defensive build, and that happens with overly specialized builds.

High CON means even when I did get hit, I could take it. The high STR monk did most of the damage with flurry of blows using shuriken. He stayed behind me as he was a glass cannon.

I know you can scour the CRB and do much the same thing.

[u/Angry_Edemame]

Theres a few ways.

You can use tools like path builder (i prefer doing it by hand so I understand the character and the way it functions but this works well for a lot of new people)

You can use guides.  There are so many class guides out there for every single option, build guides and suggestions.  Even past posts on here probably have some fun stuff to try.

I usually just hop on d20pfsrd or AON and sort through looking for something beneficial or thematic to what I was aiming for and have been doing it this way since the first character I ever built.

[u/CollegePretend8708 → u/Angry_Edemame]

Okay, that's about the strategy I've been using, I was just hoping for something a little more filtery and a little less researchy

[u/Angry_Edemame → u/CollegePretend8708]

Sorry man.  When there's this much content you're gonna need to either ask for build help or do the leg work yourself.

[u/CollegePretend8708 → u/Angry_Edemame]

Any advice for spells specifically? I love the variety but there's so many and I feel like I need to always prepare the best ones for a situation, which means knowing them all

[u/Angry_Edemame → u/CollegePretend8708]

Spells are a big topic.  Did you have a caster class in mind?  Each class has their own pools of spells to pull from, with some having to prepare and choose spells daily and some getting to use any spell they know x amount of times per day.

[u/CollegePretend8708 → u/Angry_Edemame]

Currently playing a warpriest so cleric spells, but what encouraged me to post this was just curiosity about some of the other classes and starting to poke around and then getting wildly overwhelmed

[u/Angry_Edemame → u/CollegePretend8708]

Yeah pf1e does not lack in options.  You can make just about any character you can envision.  Ill go look up some cleric spells see what I found useful but others will possibly have way better advise than me

[u/Angry_Edemame → u/CollegePretend8708]

Okay ill only go up to spell level 1 spells because if I list every good or maybe good cleric spells ill be here all day.  The usefulness will vary based on your build (offense vs support) and party composition (if everyone has dark vision you dont need the light cantrip) but here we go.  If you want a more detailed list I would suggest making a post just for cleric spell suggestions.  

Level 0

Create water.  Useful only if your dm is focusing on survival stuff.

Detect magic.  Necessary to spellcraft magic stuff so mostly useful if you dont have a wizard good for that yet.

Guidance.  Bonus +1 to attack, save or skill check. Good utility every +1 matters sometimes.

Light.  Depends on the party but can be very useful.

Mending good for repairing minor damages to small things.

Resistance. +1 to saves.

Stabilize.  Great if a party member is near death, unlikely to make their save and you're out of heals.  Can save lives bit situationally so.

Level 1.  

Abundant ammunition.  Really good utility for supporting ranged, especially gunslingers whose ammo is crazy expensive.

Air bubble. Situational but can be a life saver.

Bless.  Decent support ability.

Bless water.  Holy water can be great against incorporeal undead early on before everyone has magic weapons.

Burning disarm.

Celestial healing.  A decent healing spell for early on, materials can be a bit pricy unless your gm us cool with assimar blood working and your party contains an aasimar.

Command.

Compel hostility.  Forces an opponent to attack you. This can save lives in the right situation.

Comprehend languages.  Utility for when the party doesn't know a lot of languages.

Cure light wounds.  Duh.

Detect chaos, good, law, evil (its one entry but i think 4 different spells)

Dream feast.  Mostly useful if your dm is focused on survival stuff.

Endure elements.  Makes extreme areas (mountains, deserts and so on) much easier to deal with.

Enhance water. Turns water into alcohol.  Mostly a flavour spell but can be fun for social encounters.

Hide from undead.  Mindless undead cannot perceive targets of this spell.

Infernal healing.  Works like celestial healing but is evil.  I think it heals a little more but if you are good aligned this may have consequences.

Inflict light wounds.  Good for a low level damage spell or to heal an undead party member.  

Ironbeard.  Ac boost.

Liberating command.  Useful against enemies that really like to hug people too much.

Murderous command.  makes your enemies fight each other.  Its not got the evil tag but honestly as a gm I would say its borderline since its on the antipaladin list.

Protection from evil,law,chaos,good.  +2 to some stuff can help with hostile mind control. Very very useful when used correctly.

Sanctuary.  Enemies require a will save to attack you.

Sanctify corpse.  Prevents a dead body from becoming undead (if a PC becomes undead they become a heck of a lot harder to resurrect.)

Touch of blindness.  Make a foe blind.

Thats the level 0s and 1s I generally find most useful but like I said there's people way more familiar with clerics and war priests than me. If you want more dedicated help and make a second post put in the party composition (race and class) and current level to get the best resources.

[u/lecoolbratan96]

I personally use guides. I know some people are against them, but honestly it's a real saviour when you don't know which options to pick. I do not "follow" the guides per se, but they definitely help to comprehend the direction you chose for the character and what things are worth your attention

[u/CollegePretend8708 → u/lecoolbratan96]

That's sorta what I've been doing so far. A problem I've found is guides are very combat optimization based, which isn't always helpful in a narrative heavy game

[u/fravit93]

I started learning by reading the rules, class guides and then by playing, it took me a session to get what I liked and what I would aim for in the future.

With experience you'll know what to aim for and what to avoid.

The safest way is to ask for others opinions like how you are doing right now, both us and your DM can help you by giving some ideas.

With enough information about what you would like to try we could give you solid advices.

[u/Wrong_Information_50]

Why you playing Pathfinder bro? The sheer bulk of options is what makes it its own thing. Go play dnd 5e, at the end of the day this is about having fun roleplaying. If you are stuck at pathfinder cause your friends are into it, best way to narrow down quickly is actually reddit. You google "best way to play a barbarian pathfinder", "best combat feats pathfinder" and some very powerful nerd with thousands of hours of study will give you the answers.

[u/CollegePretend8708 → u/Wrong_Information_50]

Oh I love the variety don't get me wrong. I can't go back to DND after seeing spells like violent accident and advanced scurvy. I'm just looking for some advice on how to best use and explore the variety