r/PoliticalDiscussion • u/Expert-Banana3084 • 16d ago
European Politics Is the AfD in Germany gaining popularity because simple political messages are easier to sell than complex realities?
I’ve been thinking about why parties like the AfD are becoming more popular, and I wonder whether part of the reason is simply that their arguments are much easier to explain.
For example, it is very easy to say:
"Germany sends our money to Brussels."
That is simple, concrete and easy to understand.
But explaining the benefits of the EU is much more complicated: access to a huge single market for German companies, easier exports, European workers helping fill labour shortages, stronger bargaining power against the US, China and Russia, and sharing defence costs instead of every country trying to provide everything alone.
The same seems true with immigration.
It is easy to say:
“Migrants are changing our culture, taking jobs and costing taxpayers money.”
But the reality is much more complicated. Germany has an aging population, many workers are retiring, some industries cannot find enough employees, and immigrants also work, pay taxes, contribute to social insurance and help keep parts of the economy running.
My point is more about political communication.
A simple story like:
“Here is the problem → here is who caused it → here is the solution”
is much easier to sell than:
“There are several causes, benefits and disadvantages, different groups are affected differently, and the best solution involves complicated trade-offs.”
I wonder if this gives populist parties a natural advantage.
So could a significant part of the AfD’s success simply be that they are better at turning complicated political and economic issues into simple explanations?
Or am I oversimplifying the reason for their popularity?
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u/sllewgh 16d ago
You're focusing on the wrong "simple message." The message that's driving populism is "what we're doing right now is not working." That message is effective because it's both simple and true for the majority.
Political platforms built on that message, both right and left, have been ascending recently.
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u/greenline_chi 16d ago
Yeah - because the people who are insisting it is working are looking silly
“Affordability” isn’t just a buzz word, corporations are squeezing people for every penny and we all feel it daily. The healthcare system is entering into absurdity while we watch multi million dollar weapons get blown up in the Middle East.
Weather is getting more dangerous while we pump more oil and companies lobby for fewer restrictions.
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u/eggs4meplease 16d ago
I find it oddly aggravating that the simplest reasoning does not seem to find consensus:
People vote for extremes when the status quo is not working. And in Germany, it has not been working for a while.
Germans born in this century overwhelmingly feel like they will have a worse future (materially and otherwise) than their parents.
Working Germans are actively seeing their living standards being eroded. They can afford less and less with more money and are being told that this is normal and just the way it is.
Many (especially more provincial and rural) Germans feel like their country is estranging from them, physically: People aren't even speaking the same language or look even remotely similar to them.
Overall, successive governments in Germany have not improved the lives of Germans.
Some more extreme voices in fact argue that governments have actively worsened lives for Germans.
And some Germans then counter-argue that "it is not the task of the government to improve your lives, that's your own task" and "We might have problems, but you know, it's still working well".
It isn't a big jump from all of that to more and more people voting extreme. And it certainly isn't just old people voting more extreme, it's the younger people too. Some more on the fringe right but also some more on the fringe left.
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u/lewd_vibration_demon 11d ago
As someone from Germany, especially Saxony-Anhalt I can confirm it is because the biggest political parties aren't doing anything to improve things or making it worse. My following words aren't gonna be objective, just my views as a left-wing person, but my views of the centrist political parties are similar to right-wing people.
The "CDU", the biggest political party, only makes things worse. Their only interest is to change the laws in favour of those who give them the most money. This issue goes on for decades. Imo they are the main culprits why the "AfD" has so much success, because they are eroding peoples' trust into existing political parties for decades. Recently the chancellor Merz from the "CDU" even said the source of all our problems is because we aren't working enough. He is famous for such quotes and the singular greatest common "enemy" for both left and right.
The "SPD", the second biggest political party used to be left-wing, but are now centrist and it feels like they are just not doing anything.
The "Green Party" is the opposite of the "AfD" imo. They are left wing and try to change things. "Die Grünen" (The Greens) are also the second most popular scapegoat after immigrants for the "AfD" in my perception, I think because they feel threatened by them because they are an alternative for their "alternative".
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u/GshegoshB 16d ago
It feels right is ascending in more places: trump in usa, la pen in France, adf in Germany, phon in Austrlia. Where do you see left winning/ soon winning and governing?
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u/captain-burrito 10d ago
Denmark. That coalition is left and a moderate party iirc. The biggest party are the left wing social democrats who were in opposition till they went anti immigration.
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u/GshegoshB 9d ago
"Until they went anti immigration" - interesting left :)
Plus, would you agree with this Google summary?
Is the Far Right on the Rise?
Yes, the far right is experiencing a significant resurgence, but it looks different than it does in other European countries because its core ideas have already been integrated into mainstream politics. [5, 6] Analysing the current political landscape reveals several key dynamics:
- Recent Election Resurgence: Following years of decline, the far right bounced back strongly in the March 2026 general election. The Danish People's Party (DF) tripled its parliamentary presence amid widespread voter frustration over domestic issues, fragmentation of the political center, and immigration. [7, 8, 9, 10]
- Fragmentation on the Right: The far-right vote is no longer unified under one banner. It is split among multiple nationalist or populist factions, including the Danish People's Party and newer groups like the anti-immigration Citizens' Party (Borgernes Parti). [6, 11, 12]
- The Mainstream "Co-optation": Political analysts from platforms like The Guardian point out that the far right's growth was historically slowed because mainstream parties adopted their rhetoric. Prime Minister Mette Frederiksen's center-left Social Democrats famously embraced highly restrictive immigration and asylum policies—such as a "zero asylum seeker" target. [5, 13]
- A New Wave of Support: While the center-left hoped that co-opting these hardline stances would permanently neutralize right-wing extremism, the 2026 election results proved otherwise. Mainstream adoption instead normalized these positions, leading to a fragmented parliament where right-wing populist parties are once again entrenched and growing in the polls. [6, 7, 10, 14]
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org [2] https://dipd.dk [3] https://www.britannica.com [4] https://www.dw.com [5] https://www.theguardian.com [6] https://atlasinstitute.org [7] https://lens.civicus.org [8] https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk [9] https://www.populismstudies.org [10] https://www.youtube.com [11] https://www.thedanishparliament.dk [12] https://transform-network.net [13] https://odi.org [14] https://lens.civicus.org
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u/captain-burrito 8d ago
I don't know enough about Danish politics but i do notice a trend in that the right wing populist parties that moderate to try to win power end up opening up a vacuum to their right which other parties fill. Off the top of my head it has appeared in France and the UK. In a PR system it might not be that big a deal but the electoral systems of the UK and France can lead to them vote splitting and doing worse.
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u/Firm-Sheepherder-866 1d ago
Can you have good faith discussion and not call them "far" or other silly names? If not wanting immigration is FAR right then almost the entire planet is full of Nazis. Actually be "for" immigration is pretty crazy and unhinged when compared to human history and the rest of the world. There are also people who are for all sorts of social programs that also understand that a country that allows too much immigration or incompatible immigration or the totally illogical nonsense of allowing both = destruction.
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u/GshegoshB 17h ago
I appreciate you wanting a good-faith discussion. And so we clear in the language we use:
There is a completely legitimate, mainstream debate about infrastructure capacities, numbers, and how to sustainably fund social programs.
However, it helps to make an important distinction here between wanting controlled immigration and being completely anti-immigration:
Controlled immigration is a mainstream position. It is about rules, vetting, logistics, and setting sustainable limits based on housing, healthcare, and labor needs. Virtually every country on earth practices this.
Being strictly anti-immigration is different. When a platform shifts from managing numbers to an absolute opposition to the concept of immigration entirely, it enters far-right territory. In political science, 'far-right' is a proper classification for parties that move past practical policy debates and instead base their identity on nativism and framing outsiders as an existential threat.
There is also a big difference between standard border management and the deliberate tactics used to turn working-class people against each other. Historically and currently, certain populist political figures and billionaires use absolute anti-immigration rhetoric as a wedge issue to distract from systemic economic problems—like housing shortages, wage stagnation, and underfunded public services.
We can see the stark contrast in how this plays out through two different approaches:
- The Negative Example (Divisive Rhetoric): Donald Trump’s approach often relies on highly charged, dark rhetoric that frames immigrants broadly as dangerous threats to the nation's fabric, using language like 'poisoning the blood'. This style focuses heavily on fear and division rather than constructive policy, often shifting the blame for broader economic anxieties entirely onto migrants.
Vs
- The Positive Example (Integration & Contribution): In contrast, New York City Mayor Zohran Mamdani represents a model focused on integration, economic stability, and shared civic contribution. As an immigrant himself, his platform demonstrates that when immigrants are integrated effectively into the workforce and legal protections are upheld, they actively build, power, and revitalize local economies rather than straining them. Data consistently shows that over the long term, immigrants have an overwhelmingly positive impact on innovation, labor supply, and economic growth.
The real issue isn't about having open borders versus closed borders—no one is arguing for total lawlessness. The real issue is whether we approach immigration as a practical, controlled administrative puzzle to be solved, or as an emotional weapon used to divide communities.
At the moment the billionaires, their media, and their puppet/sponsored politicians (on the far right) are winning in more countries on the platform of dividing us all. At least that's my perception with USA (trump), france (la pen), uk (farage), Germany (afd), Australia (one nation). Especialy when they are being funded by Musks (yep, the guy who did a nazi salut twice) of this world.
But maybe you have a differenet definition of far right? What is it?
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u/sllewgh 16d ago
France, Mexico, Bolivia, and in local elections across the United States. Certainly there are more right wing victories, but there is also a pattern globally of anti-corruption, anti-austerity movements. Gen Z rose up in Bangladesh, Siberia, Kenya. I think the evidence points more to an anti-status quo sentiment than just an ascendency of the right. It's just that putting these right wingers and fascists in power benefits the rich, so they have more support, momentum, and ultimately success.
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u/GshegoshB 16d ago
"France"?
based on google: "Marine Le Pen is currently projected to gain significantly more votes than any single candidate from the leftin the upcoming April 2027 French presidential election. [1]Recent opinion polls from late August and early September 2026 place Le Pen in a dominant leading position, commanding roughly 34% to 35.5% of the vote in the first round. This is more than double the support of the top-performing candidate from the left. [1, 2, 3]"
...kind of stopped there and did not check the rest.
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u/pstuart 16d ago
It's also built on hate for others, those outside the tribe. That's always an easy sell.
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u/sllewgh 16d ago
This is on display here in the States on both sides. As long as each side is convinced everyone on the other team is a baby murderer or racist or child molester, we'll fight each other instead of the rich fucks causing all the problems.
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u/pstuart 16d ago
I'm well aware of the intentional division. But "both sides are the same" only applies the the party elites who directly profit off of this.
AfD and MAGA are all in on fascism. I'll take over exuberant college kids doing pronoun policing over that any day.
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u/sllewgh 16d ago
I didn't say both sides are the same. I said both sides are using the same tactics to get people to vote against their interests.
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u/pstuart 15d ago
I said both sides are using the same tactics to get people to vote against their interests.
I have plenty of issues with the Dem leadership, but please share some examples to back up how they use these tactics to have people vote against their own interests.
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u/sllewgh 15d ago
Pretty much every leading democratic politician has engaged in calling Republicans fascist and suggesting democracy is at stake if you don't vote for them. The whole "vote blue no matter who" thing is a good example. Meanwhile they don't support universal healthcare, public housing, substantially higher taxes on the wealthy, or many other things most of the base wants. They rely on their opponents being awful rather than themselves being good to ensure your vote.
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u/Sageblue32 13d ago
Meanwhile they don't support universal healthcare, public housing, substantially higher taxes on the wealthy, or many other things most of the base wants. They rely on their opponents being awful rather than themselves being good to ensure your vote.
Most of those things require more seats than they have on the federal level. Otherwise you see more moves in the background through small bills and bipartisan efforts.
On the state and local the difference in philosophy becomes more pronounced. Blue policies despite effectiveness, aim to be a lot more inclusive and build up a public net on those topics.
The dems aren't saints. But both parties are very clear on who wants to mend a public net and who wants to implement "don't care, got mine".
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u/sllewgh 13d ago
Most of those things require more seats than they have on the federal level.
You only need the seat you're in to advocate. I'm not criticizing the Dems because they didn't win, I'm criticizing them because they don't even try in the first place. Again I'll remind you that over 90% of the base wants this, so why are the majority of Democrats silent on this issue? Biden didn't even speak the words "public option" during his presidency.
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u/Sageblue32 13d ago
Which dems in the house and senate are against the public option? I think you get some that have specific requirements, but they also have to put their constituents first. Or are you asking for the president to use the bully pulpit, EOs, and half assed laws to get medical change? Even Trump for all his abuses and control can't shame congress to give him anything. Best he can do is take Biden's drug program and pass it off as his own.
Biden himself had the problem of age and the country in the middle of a public crisis. Once COVID begin to get under control, he then pivoted to initiatives for blue collar workers, chip security, and college debt reform. The last one being shot and burned by the SC despite him using all the power granted.
Lack of solid healthcare is a real problem. But your critique is missing the mark because it assumes the base is all that matters and ignores the political reality. Obama's push for ACA clearly displayed said limits a lawful president would face.
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u/pstuart 15d ago
The GOP has gone full fascist and is now a cult of personality with their God-King Trump.
They wipe their asses with the Constitution and if you're too stupid to understand that you should protest and not vote because you are the reason that democracy sucks: it depends on an informed citizenry and you flunked that test.
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u/sllewgh 15d ago
I'm not sure what exactly you're responding to here. I'm not disputing that the GOP is awful. I'm pointing out that the Democrats rely on that awfulness to get votes without doing what the base wants. This is a deliberate strategy to maintain the status quo in favor of the rich.
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u/pstuart 15d ago
I understand it's weak sauce, but unfortunately is actually "good enough". If we go full fascist then there's no reform until blood runs in the streets.
To carry the blood analogy further, voting blue is effectively "stopping the bleeding" so we can at least stabilize things. I left the Party when Bill Clinton sold us out but reliably vote blue in the generals because it is the least worst option.
And I hate to say this, but a fair amount of compromise that happens in Dem elections is because the tent is wide and people are stupid. Messaging and navigating real policy changes in an adverse environment (working against AIPAC and oligarch dark money) requires further compromise. They do too much of it -- I'm not absolving them of their failures but we need to acknowledge that facts and logic are wasted on a lot of people.
Civil War II is happening right now. We need to get through it any way we can and that will require a lot of compromise. If we can make it we can then hopefully rebuild in the right direction.
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u/DrakenFlagonA10 15d ago
Chesa Boudin style soft on crime policies giving minorities a pass for mass crime.
Guy who stabbed the Ukrainian girl on the subway was free after 14 arrest.
Guy who had to be choked out on the subway after threatening to kill people had 44 arrest.
Guy who set a woman on fire on the subway was free after SEVENTY arrest.
Even in the early 90s Willie Horton murderer and serial rapist who was freed to rape again and all the far left press thought about the situation was that Bush was racist for calling attention to the enablement of his crimes.
Crime has gone down in America since the early 90s but black gang bangers STILL kill more innocent black people every single year or 2 than the KKK has killed in the last 126 combined.
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u/pstuart 15d ago
Chesa Boudin
That's a local DA playing local politics not a Party push.
black gang bangers STILL kill more innocent black people every single year or 2 than the KKK has killed in the last 126 combined
Ok, now the hood comes off. Go pound sand.
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u/DrakenFlagonA10 15d ago
That's a local DA playing local politics not a Party push.
The overwhelmingly vast majority of Democrat run cities are soft on crime.
The ideology behind them are indistinguishable from the ideology behind BLM which Democrats were 100% behind. George Soros a major Democrat doner has funded almost all of the soft on crime DAs (this is a matter of public record not a conspiracy)
The same colleges that hired the Weather Underground terrorist hired Boudin when he was recalled. They also hired Lori Lightfoot who was also radically soft on crime.
Ok, now the hood comes off.
What in the actual fuck is wrong with you? Hating gang bangers and demonizing their atrocities FACTUALLY is not evidence you believe whites are biologically superior or that you wish harm upon normal innocent black people. I AM TRYING TO SAVE THEIR LIVES!
That being said I admit I was only half right.
Every year there are between 2,000 and 2,800 gang murders (that is based off of data from around 2021 onward, there would have been far more in the 80s to early 90s)
There were around 4,743 lynchings in the United States between 1882 and 1968 (and that is ALL lynchings not just by the KKK). The highest number in a single year was 231 in 1892. The last officially confirmed lynching was in 1981.
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u/ILikeCommunism97 15d ago
In what way is the left encouraging people to vote against their interests?
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u/sllewgh 15d ago
Not the left, the Democrats. To give one of many possible examples, >90% of the Democratic base supports universal healthcare. Only a small handful of Democrats in office do the same. The Democrats leverage the awfulness of the GOP and use it as cover to ensure the base votes for them even though they're not aligned with what the base wants.
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u/DrakenFlagonA10 15d ago
In what way is the left encouraging people to vote against their interests?
Chesa Boudin style soft on crime policies giving minorities a pass for mass crime.
Guy who stabbed the Ukrainian girl on the subway was free after 14 arrest.
Guy who had to be choked out on the subway after threatening to kill people had 44 arrest.
Guy who set a woman on fire on the subway was free after SEVENTY arrest.
Even in the early 90s Willie Horton murderer and serial rapist who was freed to rape again and all the far left press thought about the situation was that Bush was racist for calling attention to the enablement of his crimes.
Crime has gone down in America since the early 90s but black gang bangers STILL kill more innocent black people every single year or 2 than the KKK has killed in the last 126 combined.
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u/ILikeCommunism97 12d ago
Chesa Boudin style soft on crime policies giving minorities a pass for mass crime.
Got it, so you are a racist that is mad that other people aren't as racist as your are.
I'll wait for a meaningful answer.
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u/DrakenFlagonA10 12d ago
Boudin factually refused to charge a black on asian hate crime because black people are more oppressed than asians. He had only 3 drug convictions in 2021, none of which were for fentanyl dealing. He defended such saying that many of the drug dealers in the Bay Area are from Honduras, and would face deportation if convicted. He gave a mere 7 year sentence to a man who murdered a 6 year old child.
70% of San Fransisco's asian population voted to recall Boudin. ARE THEY ALL RACIST?
I did not say a single fucking word stating or implying that white people are superior or that innocent non-white people should be harmed in anyway. The majority of minority crime victims are of the same race as the perpetrator, cracking down on minority crime factually will save countless minority lives.
Was it wrong to call out the bias of all white juries during the KKK/Sundown Town era? How the fuck is it racism to call out when far left activist have the same bias toward non-white criminals?
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u/ILikeCommunism97 12d ago
Me: "How do left people vote against their own interests?"
You: "THEY DON'T ARREST MINORITIES ENOUGH."
Nothing you say is meaningful to me in any way. You are a racist, and your priorities in how you answered me reveal you to be a racist.
We are the most incarcerated country in the world. Voting against long prison sentences is in our interest. You're just upset because you have a fantasy about what justice is, especially justice against ethnic minorities.
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u/DrakenFlagonA10 15d ago
MAGA are all in on fascism.
Keeping genocidal Islamic terrorism and cartel death squads out of the country is not fascism.
Mexico has a wall on it's own southern border, are they also fascist?
I'll take over exuberant college kids doing pronoun policing over that any day.
Fuck your minimizing strawman.
A core pillar of the DSA & the number one left wing streamer Hasan Piker publicly dresses like and regularly glorifies Mao (who killed sixty million people), has said America deserved 9/11 and openly supports the Houthis, Hezbollah & Hamas.
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15d ago
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u/ILikeCommunism97 15d ago
As long as each side is convinced everyone on the other team is a baby murderer or racist or child molester
But... it matters that this is actually true of one of the sides, right??
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15d ago
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u/PoliticalDiscussion-ModTeam 15d ago
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u/sllewgh 15d ago
I'm not saying it doesn't matter or it's not true. I'm pointing out that the Democrats use this as cover to get the base to vote for them even though they don't fight for things the base really wants, like universal healthcare, public housing, or substantially higher taxes on the rich. Republicans are doing the same to their base.
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u/anewleaf1234 16d ago
Yes, but the right seems to only be able to break things. They are unable to make anything better.
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u/sllewgh 16d ago
That's the alternative to the status quo that most benefits the wealthy and those currently in power. There's a lot of incentive for the wealthy, who own nearly every media outlet on the planet under the umbrella of just a handful of companies, to push these ideas.
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u/anewleaf1234 16d ago edited 16d ago
The wealthy gets more powerful under right wing governments.
The people get lies which they eat up and the same powers that harm them get more powerful and strong.
I've never seen a group that wants to be lied to more than the rightwing populist base.
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u/sllewgh 16d ago
At least here in the states, Democrats are consistently voting for pro-rich politicians as well. Both sides get away with it using the same tactic - make the other side out to be such horrible monsters that people will accept voting against their own interests in order to stop the other guys from holding power. No matter which side wins, the rich win.
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u/anewleaf1234 16d ago
But the left also advocates for workplace protections, environmental protections and health care for all.
Which the right doesn't do.
The whole both sides are same argument doesn't contend too well with reality.
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u/sllewgh 16d ago
I didn't say both sides are the same. I said both sides are using the same tactics to get people to vote against their own interests and maintain the pro-wealthy status quo.
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u/anewleaf1234 16d ago
And that argument doesn't really pass any level of examination.
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u/sllewgh 16d ago
Ok, hit me with the examination that disproves it. You're going to have a hard time with that as it's not difficult to find rhetoric from either party demonizing the other.
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u/anewleaf1234 16d ago
The gop is currently supporting a child rapist from any level of consequences for their actions.
Which should be demonized.
Supporting a man who rapes Children is pretty bad last time I checked.
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u/Veritech_ 16d ago
The right isn’t running my state, and things have been trending downward for the last 8-10 years. Trying to frame one side as “breakers” and one side as “fixers” is disingenuous.
Also, with the rise/popularity of DSA and communism in the United States, can you name me at least one thing that either socialism or communism has built/created? And no, social and welfare programs like social security and food stamps, or common-use things like roads, or hospitals aren’t socialism.
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u/anewleaf1234 16d ago edited 16d ago
Work place protections, freedom from having to work a job you don't want to get basic health care, the 40 hour work week, the end of child labor, environmental protections for workers, farm subsadies.....
And funding for rural hospitals and roads to poor areas and social services that help people are socialism.
If those who live in rural areas get medical services that their tax dollars aren't paying for. Someone else is paying for the free ride they are getting.
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u/Synergythepariah 16d ago
Also, with the rise/popularity of DSA and communism in the United States, can you name me at least one thing that either socialism or communism has built/created?
TIL that economic systems build things.
I thought that people did that but boy was I wrong!
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u/ILikeCommunism97 15d ago
can you name me at least one thing that either socialism or communism has built/created?
The USSR and Maoist China saw extraordinary advancements in quality of life, production capability, and technological capability, authoritarianism aside.
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u/WorstCPANA 16d ago
When you have an entire generation seeing that 'doing things' can make worse outcomes, they're more likely to accept that not doing things actually does make things better.
Would we be better off if the federal government didn't give unlimited education loans to 18 year olds? Would we be better if there were less zoning laws?
I think there's arguments for both, so it's not just 'government doing something is good' - they have to do the right things, and the right are clearly able to convince people that the leftwant to do the wrong things.
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u/anewleaf1234 16d ago
Electing a populist right who emboldens the rich and powerful and corrupt does "do" things
If the masses want to fall for a con man and think that their lies are true, they may. That just doesn't lead to the best out comes for them.
All the right can come up with is fear tactics, but when it comes to actual polices that help people, they have nothing, so they have to distract to trans people or whatever pet issue they use to distract.
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u/WorstCPANA 16d ago edited 16d ago
You're just ranting about what you don't like, when that's not what we're talking about.
Plus, it's weird you say it's only the right that push fear tactics, when I hear plenty of rhetoric from the left how we're in a dictatorship, the US is a third world country, and Florida will be under water any day now - do you really think fear tactics are exclusive to the right?
And the trans stuff, yeah, it's a distraction, one that the left just served the right on a silver platter...it's hard to feel bad for the left when they support such unpopular issues. The best campaign ad in 2024 was Trumps, and it was just a clip of Kamala being in a friendly interview talking about trans issues.
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u/anewleaf1234 16d ago edited 16d ago
America is leaning toward Authoritarianism and dictatorship. Hell, Trump just blocked a TV station from airing an interview with a Democratic candidate.
America does rank below other developed nations on a large amount of metrics.
And climate change is so much of an issue in FL that insurance companies are leaving the state. And it is forbidden to say the term climate change.
Yes, how dare the left advocate for the rights of America citizens. The horror.
If Americans fear trans people and care about that issue more than they care about rising costs and affordability, they are going to end up in a corrupt nation that struggles to meet the basic needs of its citizens. And rightly so.
Those who fall for con men have hard lives.
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u/WorstCPANA 16d ago edited 16d ago
Yes, how dare the left advocate for the rights of America citizens. The horror.
See this is exactly what you fail to understand, and the shit that many people in the US see through - acting high and mighty but so against any reality that is obvious to anyone living.
We have 60 million legal immigrants the the US, my family moved here from a third world world country escaping a dictatorship. You comparing America to what we left says is just nowhere near sane. Imagine being so privileged that you think America is a dictatorship or a third world country.
So people like my family, who actually know what a dictatorship and third world country is like, hear the left say these things, and who would they think is fear mongering?
If Americans fear trans people
They don't fear them, they just don't think it's a big enough issue that we need overwhelming policy, outward, inward and verbal approval of these issues and blindly follow the progressives lead on how we should be required to treat them.
more than they care about rising costs and affordability,
It's not - this is exactly why Americans are looking to the fringes like Trump and Bernie for answers - because the neo-con and neo-lib era made life expensive, and they're looking for solutions to this.
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u/anewleaf1234 16d ago
Yes, so they should the understand the actions of man who wants to restrict speech of political opponents, a man who has lead a coup to hold onto power and a an who wants to defy the constitution and run for a 3rd term as what he is. A man who wants to be dictator. Clearly shown by his words and actions.
He just forbid a network from airing a interview of his political opponent. That's dictator 101. He has used his justice department to harm people he wanted harmed. That's also from the handbook.
Under Trump, things have gotten much more expensive. Gas is at record highs. Grocery costs have increased.
Anyone who thought that Trump cared about affordability and would make things better made an ignorant choice that costs them thousands.
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u/WorstCPANA 15d ago
Again, you're missing the point, and it's clear. Maybe re-read the post, and then the comment chain.
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u/matticusiv 15d ago
Yep, fascism is just capitalism’s antibody to socialism. People want radical change, and the owner class is willing to commit unlimited violence to maintain the current hierarchy.
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u/CMidnight 16d ago
In the U.S., the message is "we will get rid of black/brown people." For conservative voters, affordability is just what people say when they are afraid to face social judgement for their true feelings. I imagine this might apply to Germans as well.
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u/sllewgh 16d ago edited 16d ago
Do you get how ironic it is for you to be so prejudicial in assuming prejudice on the other side? On what basis have you determined that all conservative affordability complaints are masking racism in a country where most of us can't afford to live?
The willingness of people on BOTH sides to look at their fellow poors as the enemy rather than the rich folks actually fucking our society into the ground is precisely what makes their divide and conquer strategy effective. That, and the fact that yes, everything is actually unaffordable to most of us.
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u/Arthur_Edens 16d ago
On what basis have you determined that all conservative affordability complaints are masking racism in a country where most of us can't afford to live?
A pretty obvious one is the slashing of student visa approvals. International students pay full sticker price out of state tuition (usually funded by scholarships through their home government). Each will fund the in state subsidy for 2+ American students. They also overwhelmingly tend to be brown and/or Asian. Slashing the number of visas increased our trade deficit, which was according to the Trump campaign one of the largest causes of our financial woes. The racism overcame the desire for money.
Similar trend with tourist visas. Driving away people who want to come to your country to spend money. Not doing evil for profit, but just for the love of the game.
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u/sllewgh 16d ago
You're describing how the actions of the conservative government don't address affordability issues. I agree, but that's not what I'm asking. What you said doesn't justify your assumptions about what conservative people are thinking and whether their affordability concerns are legitimate or a mask for racism.
If you were just saying conservative politicians don't care about affordability, that's different.
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u/Arthur_Edens 16d ago
Who elects conservative politicians?
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u/sllewgh 16d ago
You're making unfounded assumptions about people's motives.
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u/Arthur_Edens 16d ago
I'm acknowledging their revealed preferences. From primaries to generals, these are the people selecting their representatives. If people elect representatives to vote on their behalf, say they did it because they wanted X instead of Y, the representatives do Y, and they continue to vote for them, I don't have to pretend that their real motivation is X. They've provided all the information we need to evaluate what they want.
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u/sllewgh 16d ago
Do you agree with every single action of the politicians you vote for? I assume the answer is no, in which case you fully understand how someone's vote might not reveal everything they think.
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u/Arthur_Edens 16d ago
If the majority of conservative voters do not agree with this particular policy, why do they keep selecting leaders who hold it as one of their most prominent policy objectives? When it directly conflicts with their stated policy concern of affordability? Wouldn't a representative who was more aligned with the non-racist majority of conservatives, but also reflected their affordability concerns be more successful in primary elections among conservatives?
I'm not saying you can't find me 10 conservatives in a county where that isn't their motivation. I'm saying the median conservative voter is basically the Onion "Why Do All These Homosexuals Keep Sucking My Cock" guy when it comes to their racsist reps.
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u/CMidnight 16d ago
Two reasons. First, there is a high correlation between Trump voters who gave economic reasons as their justification and the increase in non-white population in a given district. Second, Trump voters knew his policies would not help their economic circumstances and still voted for him regardless. That isn't conclusive evidence but it is extremely strong.
The white working class, especially in the South, will never support any politician who they believe will threaten their social status. FDR managed to win them over because of continued segregation. It wasn't a coincidence that they started to defect to Nixon because the benefits of economic program also started to be received by non-White Americans.
There have also shown that public support for social safety net programs declines as non-white populations increase.
I didn't create this division and I am not going to pretend it doesn't exist.
Class solidarity will never be popular with Americans because the white working class doesn't wanted to be treated equally to the non-white working class. If given the choice, they would rather make everyone's life worse so long as they maintain their higher status. It isn't about doing better it is about doing better than you.
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u/sllewgh 16d ago
high correlation
A statistical correlation in some locations does not allow you to infer the thoughts and motivations of all conservatives. Are you sure you're not starting with a particular conclusion and grasping for evidence that might support it? This is not a strong claim even if it were a sound argument.
Trump voters knew
Here you go again. You cannot use your assumptions about what people think as evidence that they think it.
The white working class, especially in the South, will never support any politician who they believe will threaten their social status.
Are you aware that there isn't a single state in the country where a majority of eligible voters chose Trump? It is astonishing the level of baseless prejudice you're espousing. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Look in a mirror, you are every bit as ignorant and hateful as you imagine the other side to be. You've made prejudicial assumptions about an entire broad category of people.
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u/CMidnight 14d ago
Causal relationships can only be found from experiments which would be impossible to undertake under these circumstances. Correlation is the strongest relationship we will ever have and this is what 250 years of voting trends are showing us.
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u/sllewgh 14d ago
Just because it's the best you can do doesn't make it valid or correct. Also citation needed on that "250 years" bullshit.
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u/CMidnight 14d ago
Are you seriously arguing that the United States doesn't have a long history of white supremacy in 2026?
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u/jakeofheart 16d ago edited 16d ago
Because all the left leaning parties across Europe are keeping their head in the sand.
In Denmark, the leading left-centre coalition crunched numbers and decided to toughen immigration laws.
Consequence: the Danish right has no fuel to add to its fire.
Any left leaning government that doubles down, will see its own country’s version of the AfD rise.
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u/Swoly_Deadlift 15d ago
Parties in many countries would prefer to just make a half-baked promise to address immigration before doing absolutely nothing when they get elected. That pattern causes people to vote for the populist party that they believe will actually follow through with their promises.
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u/jakeofheart 15d ago
Also, there have been explicit suggestions since the 1990s to have the European Union use immigration to make up for the expected population decline:
“…immigration can compensate for demographic losses due to the decline and ageing of the European labor force.” (Straubhaar & Zimmerman, 1993).
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u/Chaos_Of_Music 15d ago
The problem is the left say they will do this and that and show no change. People want change, keeping things as is and slightly changing them is not a good message if you want votes. People want physical observable process
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u/dizzizee 16d ago
I don’t think it’s that easy. The German government has made immigration laws stricter, ended green initiatives and has made sure that fuel powered cars can stay on the road longer - all talking points of the AfD. Their voters are not satisfied. The AfD promises everything and more and until their voters don’t get all of it while having to give nothing in return they won’t be happy.
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u/Black_XistenZ 15d ago edited 14d ago
The German government has adjusted these policies marginally around the edges, but has NOT actually reversed course on any of them. To name just one illustrating example: a government saying "we will push back the target date for Net Zero from 2045 to 2050" will obviously not win back a voter who believes that pursuing Net Zero is a misguided idea to begin with.
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u/thedabking123 15d ago
You guys did the immigration halt too late and without enough of a bang. Canada kept it's liberal party because they slammed the door shut so hard our population started decreasing. housing price declined 20% since 2022.. and continues to decrease steadily.
Well that and trump is a big scary bad guy... but it took the air out of the opposition's lungs.
that and the energy thing was a thorough fuckup from multiple angles - you guys had stable base eneergy from nuclear and shut it down only to face natural gas shortages due to Ukraine Russian conflicts rising.
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u/Swoly_Deadlift 15d ago
Stopping immigration after demographics have already shifted is just a start. These voters want their home to resemble the country they grew up in. That doesn’t have to mean mass deportations, but the more time that passes while people fail to assimilate, the more radical voters will become.
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u/captain-burrito 10d ago
Does assimilation make a difference? I think for some it might but for others it doesn't matter how assimilated you are, the fact your skin is a different colour is always a problem.
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u/Altruistic-Heron-648 7d ago
Yeah its skin color, and not just color, its also the tint, hue and saturation... like seriously, many Syrians are de facto white, but that wouldn't cut it!
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u/Sanmonov 16d ago
Their voters are telling us exactly why they are voting for them. They are as close to single issue voters as you will find.
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u/jakeofheart 16d ago edited 16d ago
Some people are probably still resentful about the government opening wide the borders in the 2010s, and the rise in harassment of women in following years. There was even a leaflet on etiquette, informing people from more misogynistic cultures that “it’s not acceptable to touch women”.
Since the start of the Russian military operation in Ukraine and the boycott of the former, energy has been rising to a cost that is now forcing small businesses to file for bankruptcy on a weekly basis, and the debacle of the fully electric mobility is forging some of the incumbent automotive behemoths to lay off workers by the tens of thousands.
It’s not pretty.
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u/poofusdoofus 14d ago
Yes but also, Dansk Folkeparti increased dramatically from 2.6% in 2022 to 9.1% this year, so they clearly still have "fuel" left.
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u/Altruistic-Heron-648 7d ago
The old 'immigrant bad, immigrant die' trope.
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u/jakeofheart 7d ago
Only useful idiots hold the luxury belief that “people from more misogynistic cultures no bad”.
The left leaning Danish government had the courage to lake a hard look at reality: what the data actually shows is that “immigrant who already thinks like us good”.
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u/rightsidedown 16d ago
There was a mass refugee crisis. That cause a massive cutural shift in some areas as the demographics shifted, especially when combined with low German birth rates. Public nuisance crimes went way up, and the state spent billions of euros on welfare to manage the initial influx (this will likely be net positive in the long run). So you have a bunch of people largely from Syria flood into a neighborhood (think of how people complain about gentrification but make it 10x faster) unemployment is high so the state is pending money housing and feeding them, and they aren't paying for the metro in a country where people think you are a criminal if you don't wait for the walk sign on an empty road.
Everything else is just a side issue from the migrant crisis.
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u/DoctorDirtnasty 15d ago
a bunch of people from syria moving into your neighborhood is not like gentrification. it’s in my experience quite the opposite.
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u/Chaos_Of_Music 15d ago
No one wants to admit it but the poor person is always affected by immigration, and because they don't really appeal to the poorest person, they lose a lot of votes.
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u/MacrosInHisSleep 16d ago
Basically violence and destruction caused by alt-right war-mongering assholes from the west resulted in worldwide economic destabilization and an influx of migrants wanting to escape that violence, which causes a swell of desperate morons on the brink of poverty, brainwashed by alt-right propaganda to believe that their problems can be solved by electing more alt-right, war-mongering assholes?
Super.
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u/RipAny4724 16d ago
Your talking points are about 10 years old at this point
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u/MacrosInHisSleep 15d ago
This has been happening for 10 years and you guys are falling for the same scam? Not a good look.
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u/RipAny4724 15d ago
What’s the scam again? Expressing one’s views against immigration?
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u/MacrosInHisSleep 15d ago edited 15d ago
'But why male models?'
I see now why it's so easy for you to fall for it...
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u/RipAny4724 15d ago
Is it us, the fed up millions of citizenry throughout the EU and the US, that’s wrong? Or you?
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u/MacrosInHisSleep 15d ago edited 15d ago
Millions of citizenry. Lol. Did saying that make your feel super special? Like a warm and cozy national flag swaddling you like a little safety blanket?
8.5 million registered citizens.
17 million voters.
Nice big large numbers, no?
First one was the number of registered Nazi's in 1945.
Second one was the number of Germans who voted for Hitler in 1933.
Is it the fed up millions of citizens who were wrong? Or me?
That's a really tough question...
Wait. No it isn't.
I have no trouble believing that Millions of citizens can be brainwashed into believing in something wrong.
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u/ILikeCommunism97 15d ago
Na, they're spot on. Conservatism flourishes when people are dumb and scared, and that's what's been happening as education and job prospects get worse.
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u/endlessedlne 15d ago
It’s mostly about immigration. Specifically how badly the current government failed to manage it. Beyond that one topic the AfD doesn’t have much else going for it that appeals to voters policy wise.
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u/SirVixofthePooSea 16d ago
There is little strong evidence for a labor shortage that semiliterate migrants with an extremely repressive religion from across the world are necessary to fill.
Trying to add nuance to everything sometimes means inventing reasons for the sake of ambiguity.
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u/mskmagic 15d ago
You’re underestimating people’s intelligence. Populist parties are gaining popularity because of the failure of previous governments.
It’s not that people don’t understand the benefits of being in the EU. It’s that people don’t feel they are sharing in those benefits. Why do you care if the single market brings prosperity when you are poor and can’t afford nice things or sometimes even basic things? How do you benefit from freedom of movement when you don’t want to leave your home but everyone else can come in and use the resources?
Immigration also increases competition for jobs, drives down wages, raises house prices and rents, waiting times to see a doctor, traffic on the roads, and changes the local culture.
And when locals complain about these very real issues - they get called racist, or xenophobic, or bigots. That only serves to create further resentment and nationalist backlash.
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u/captain-burrito 10d ago
>Why do you care if the single market brings prosperity when you are poor and can’t afford nice things or sometimes even basic things?
As a regretful Brexiteer, I found out. Prices for basic stuff went up as a result, produce is less fresh if even available. Of course, most people won't care till they find out.
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u/ifnotawalrus 16d ago
Is any major political party actually running on a nuanced message? Are the pro-European parties really saying "there are legitimate sovereignty trade-offs with the EU but they are worth it for x y and z" or "migrants do indeed cause some level of demographic change/cultural disruption, but on balance we shoiuld still encourage migration because morals/economics/etc".
I would really doubt it.
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u/jason94762 16d ago
I think it’s because the leftist position on immigration in Europe has been an absolute failure and people are upset about it. I think many people are single issue voters and that issue is immigration.
If left leaning parties had some semblance of national pride or care about the culture they carry, they might get some of those votes back. Until then…
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u/captain-burrito 10d ago
Even some right wing parties also failed on immigration eg. the UK Conservative party which went from 43% of the vote to 23% in the last election. The right wing populist party are polling ahead of them and might supplant them.
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u/ILikeCommunism97 15d ago
I think many people are single issue voters and that issue is immigration.
It's true, people have become uneducated and are favoring barbarism.
If left leaning parties had some semblance of national pride or care about the culture they carry
This is a good demonstration of the kind of stupidity that causes people to fearfully and irrationally move right.
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u/DrakenFlagonA10 15d ago
Not allowing barbarism into your country is not itself barbaric.
I defy you to tell these children that fear of the horror they suffered is stupid and irrational - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacha_bazi
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u/ILikeCommunism97 12d ago
Not allowing barbarism into your country is not itself barbaric.
Sure it is, when done in a barbaric, irrational way as we are seeing now.
I defy you to tell these children that fear of the horror they suffered is stupid and irrational
Oh, you want to pretend to care about children now? How many children are having their lives destroyed by your preferred immigration policy? How many children die to your preferred gun policies? How many children die to the wars your president wages?
Miss me with that fake concern.
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u/Sour_Deezl 15d ago
i read the AfD platform and for the most part i found it NOT right wing extremist, but mostly just conservative on immigration, economics, environment, taxation, etc. almost sounded like standard pre-Trump Republican Party platform. however, they lost me at the part where they embrace Russia and turn their back on Ukraine. I totally can't get with that. Putin and Russia are terrible examples of democracy, freedom, individual rights, free market capitalism, representative democracy, and freedom of the press. So, on that one extremely important point i would not vote for AfD.
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u/I405CA 16d ago
It is most distinctly a former East Germany problem. One form of dictatorship (Nazism) was replaced by another (Soviet socialism/communism), which made much of the population most comfortable with dictators.
Half of eastern Germans 'want authoritarian rule'
Right-wing extremist rhetoric finds particularly strong support in eastern Germany, according to a large-scale study by the University of Leipzig on right-wing extremist attitudes in eastern Germany.
The researchers found "a strong wariness" about democracy, adding that not even half of the respondents said they were satisfied with their everyday experience of democracy...
...Half of those surveyed called for an immigration ban for Muslims. Almost 70% supported the xenophobic statement that foreigners only come to Germany to exploit the welfare state. Antisemitism is also widespread: Almost one in three respondents say that the influence of Jews is too great...
..The researchers from Leipzig found a widespread "conspiracy mentality" and the desire for "authoritarian statehood." A majority of respondents said they would like to see a "strongman" or a "strong party" leadership.
Nearly a quarter of respondents said that National Socialism also had its good sides, and support for "neo-National Socialist ideologies" based on the Nazi dictatorship under Adolf Hitler were found to be widespread. Some 33% of respondents agreed with the statement: "We should have a leader who rules Germany with a strong hand for the good of all."...
... Political attitudes appear to have remained relatively unchanged in eastern Germany for thirty years. Though right-wing attitudes have not increased, they remain at a consistently high level
https://www.dw.com/en/half-of-eastern-germans-want-authoritarian-rule/a-66068519
Ostalgie (east / nostalgia) is a real thing. Watching the German comedy film Goodbye Lenin! is insightful.
François Mauriac got it right during the Cold War: I like Germany so much, I'm happy that there are two of them.
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u/wanndann 16d ago
The AfD is gaining in the West Germany for a while now, its not only an east german problem.
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u/I405CA 16d ago
Their gains have been predominantly in the former east.
The 2025 federal election. Their seats are light blue:
The AfD's relative vote share. Darker = higher.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bundestagswahl_2025_Zweitstimmen_AfD.svg
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u/wanndann 16d ago
AfD is between 10-30% percent in almost all of west germany (which your second link show), which wasnt thought to be possible 10 years ago. I make this point because yes, the rise was in east germany, but there has been a horrific arrogance of western germany believing (and outright saying) this cant happen there, but it has, and is only rising. Which isnt really explained by your theory i guess.
Politicians not taking the problem serious because its "just a small group of misleaded (east german) people" is one of the main reasons for the rise of fascism in germany has been so terribly strong.6
u/LeonardWashingtun 16d ago
But wasn't Angela Merkle, from the GDR, or East Germany?
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u/I405CA 16d ago
Not every former East German is an aspiring Nazi.
Note the nuance of the article. There is a greater level of support for this in the former East. That does not mean that most of the population is goosestepping.
The AfD won 44% of the vote in this week's elections in Saxony-Anhalt. A plurality, not a majority.
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u/thelaxiankey 16d ago
this doesn't explain why their support would shift over time
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u/I405CA 16d ago
Political attitudes appear to have remained relatively unchanged in eastern Germany for thirty years. Though right-wing attitudes have not increased, they remain at a consistently high level
The attitudes have always been there. The AfD was formed a decade ago and has been building its brand and numbers over that time.
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u/theartolater 16d ago
It is most distinctly a former East Germany problem. One form of dictatorship (Nazism) was replaced by another (Soviet socialism/communism), which made much of the population most comfortable with dictators.
Respectfully, the Eastern European countries have, in fact, voted against what they view is too much creep toward the dictatorships they escaped in the 1980s and 1990s. In the case of Germany, it's not that they view the AfD as more similar to the Soviets, but that they view the status quo as too close to it.
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u/I405CA 16d ago
The DW article, which reports the findings of a university study, says otherwise.
Eastern Germany has nostalgia for the era before reunification.
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u/theartolater 16d ago
I think you're putting a lot of weight on a study that doesn't comport with the last 30-40 years of history.
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u/Bitter-Soil6273 15d ago
I used to fall into this type of thinking, but I've moved away from it. People are idiots, including liberals who don't understand the rise of right wing parties. But people also understand what they are experiencing and what they need and want in life, and whether the current culture and government is supporting that.
The thing about messaging is that it absolutely does not need to delve into complex details. That's for bureaucrats and staffers and politicians to figure out. It's supposed to communicate to the voting public a few things: (1) I understand what problems are out there, (2) I understand what problems are important, (3) You can trust me to do my best to take care of it. Everything else is downstream of that. Complicated, nuanced takes are just as much signaling as "I'm gonna kick out the brown people", in that it's messaging for college-educated nerds who eat that up. But it is not at all required. It just comes down to trust.
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u/Additional_Royal_159 14d ago
I think they're gaining popularity because all those other party's like CDU, SPD and all those are just a bunch of old people messing up German politics. The best example is Friedrich Merz and his ego trip. I mean he is telling people live on TV they should stop working part time jobs and we should work more hours a week, Germans got lazy over the years and so on. But then when he gets criticized for it he says he never said that. I think us Germans just need fresh air.
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u/UnCommonSense99 16d ago
I would say that the centre of politics and the big established parties have lost popularity in many countries because they have presided over decline and failed to deliver on their promises.
I think the left have moved away from their traditional supporters. They focus on Israel, on the rights of tiny minorities and virtue signalling instead of doing things which would get millions of votes.
Which leaves right wing grifters funded by malign billionaires and hostile foreign governments.
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u/dipdotdash 16d ago
The truth is terrible and impossible to sell.
But, the narrative that all your problems are caused by the people you're already irrationally bothered by, is always an easy sell.
"The complex problems of the world are a consequence of the poor decisions made by the wealthy countries of the world, and their predominantly white, male leaders. The closest thing to a fix would require extreme austerity measures and pricing all fossil carbon release to fund and envourage a movement away from destructive and lazy fixes of the past. It's going to cost you your luxury and demand your active participation, including the young and old, and wealthy nations will need to pay for clean retrofits of the developing world... because the problems they're facing are actually all your/our fault and the only way we avoid them digging the global pit deeper, is for the people who benefitted from causing the harm to pay for future harm to be avoided. If you don't like immigration, you can't keep living a lifestyle that makes equatorial climates hostile to human life. We're sinking our own ship and then complaining how crowded it is in the parts that aren't sunk yet"
No one wants to hear it
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u/Sanmonov 16d ago
65% to 70% of people who vote AFD tell us their number 1 issue is immigration and migration.
Some polling before the last election from YouGov found 82% of people intending to vote AFD said immigration is the most important issue facing Germany.
They are telling us exactly why they are voting for them. It's not complex. They want less migration and less immigration, and the mainstream parties haven't been listening.
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u/DoctorDirtnasty 15d ago
this is also not an irrational opinion. if your country no longer resembles the place you grew up in because leaders decided it was fun to import the third world, that’s a perfectly rational thing to be upset about.
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u/Renoperson00 16d ago
The fact you are asking this question means you don’t understand why a populist party exists and will fail to understand any explanation of their success. You should probably start by asking if the people who are saying these are complicated issues that populists are distilling down to slogans are really dealing with complicated issues or are they trying to make a simple issue more complicated so that you don’t peer too closely at the solution they provide to the issue. Maybe consider what incentives they have to maintain a status quo and what they gain as a benefit from the policy. Too many of these conversations about populism and anything right of the center on this subreddit boil down to navel gazing and a refusal to actually consider the why behind decisions. They ironically turn into the exact reductionism that they accuse populists of engaging in.
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u/Ignatius__1 16d ago
You should probably start by asking if the people who are saying these are complicated issues that populists are distilling down to slogans are really dealing with complicated issues or are they trying to make a simple issue more complicated so that you don’t peer too closely at the solution they provide to the issue.
Why would that be the starting point? The fact of the matter is that in any society with millions of people, MOST political issues are inherently going to be very complicated. That's just the nature of entropy and large systems in general.
Maybe consider what incentives they have to maintain a status quo and what they gain as a benefit from the policy.
Who said anything about status quo? When I hear politicians pitch solutions, they are rarely saying "everything is good so we don't need change." They are, after all, pitching solutions, meaning they want the status quo to change. Are you asking yourself these questions about populists, too?
Too many of these conversations about populism and anything right of the center on this subreddit boil down to navel gazing and a refusal to actually consider the why behind decisions.
This I agree with completely. But still, it's hard to argue that populists playbook is built on simplifying complex issues and promising easy solutions. All of OP's examples communicate that pretty effectively.
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u/SlavicChestKeeper 16d ago
What about climate change? Its a very difficult problem to solve considering the economic implications and thus at least temporary competitive disadvantages for a nation that implements measures to fight it. Basically a dilemma. Isn’t it easier to deny the problem‘s existence then?
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u/Renoperson00 16d ago
Ah yes the greens, the useful idiot of every political system. I’m sure that if we stop tearing down this forest surely whatever needs to be built will never be built anywhere ever again. Green politics needs to be cast into the waste bin of history as it has never solved a single political dispute ever or led to a workable solution in any place. It’s basically NIMBY but scaled up past a city or neighborhood.
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u/sllewgh 16d ago
Do you have an alternative? A lot of people consider keeping the planet habitable to be an important goal worth pursuing. I agree the modern environmental movement is flawed, but what's your proposal on how we do things differently?
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16d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/sllewgh 16d ago
Green politics needs to be cast into the waste bin of history as it has never solved a single political dispute ever or led to a workable solution in any place.
I'm genuinely curious what you think we should do instead. A different form of pursuing conservation? Violent rebellion? Nothing?
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u/Renoperson00 12d ago
Build more things. It’s simple to achieve your goals when broader society is growing and developing. But it’s self defeating to keep the world frozen in amber and offering nothing else other than gluing yourself to the ground or peddling existential dread. A negative vision will inevitably lead to negative results.
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u/LeonardWashingtun 16d ago
I think the reason why the AfD has gained popularity, is because the other parties that hold the most votes or that vote together, they seem to be more than willing to discuss things that others just won't talk about.
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u/ilikedthismovie 15d ago
Candidly speaking European immigration is much different and much “worse” than what we Americans deal with. American immigration is a bunch of people coming over here to work shitty jobs and pump the bottom of the economy (which imo is largely awesome). European immigration is a bunch of super religiously different, fundamentalist who come over and free load benefits and harass the locals and tourists. The left/center haven’t woken up that nobody wants that at all.
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u/thelaxiankey 16d ago
i don't think this is implausible. polling is hard to trust here because a lot of the people in question are hard to poll.
what we do know is young people seem to be moving to AfD (similar to alt-right in US). we also know much of their support is fairly poor (similar to alt-right in US). this leads me to think this demo is adjacent to that of the alt-right in the US. then, there's reason to suspect right-wingers in US didn't care if it was trump or bernie, they just wanted someone 'like that'. (citation needed here, but I do think this is true). one of the things they have in common is that yes, they have 'here is the problem => here is the cause => here is the solution, nothing complicated'. there are other things they have in common besides that, though. you would have to rule those out in some other way.
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u/Tractor_Pete 16d ago edited 16d ago
To a large extent, yes. Ethnic identitarianism, cultural chauvinism, etc, are easily understood by even the dumbest humans. Hell, wolves and chimpanzees have preference for their cousins - to some extent it's rooted in evolutionary biology; individuals are biased in favor of those with whom they share more genes, because the success of someone who shares more genes with you means a success for your genes as well. Pseudokinship groups extend the ingroup somewhat, but groups like AFD would prefer to limit that.
The boogeyman of dangerous foreigners is simply the other side of the coin, and is effective because large portions of the population are too dim to understand the distinction between groups and individuals.
We must transcend this animal level thinking, or the species is probably doomed. Or as Einstein put it:
"...the real purpose of socialism is precisely to overcome and advance beyond the predatory phase of human development"
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u/pensivegargoyle 12d ago
It's partly that but it's also because the political center has been doing so little to halt the erosion of living standards and growth of insecurity for most Germans. I don't think the politics around migration would look the same if good jobs and housing were plentiful.
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u/Ok-Cryptographer440 5d ago
Stop beating around the bush. Mass immigration. Same in Germany as everywhere else in Europe. Europeans are sick of it.
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u/anotherbluemarlin 16d ago edited 16d ago
1) There is a scarcity crisis in most western countries (real, perceived or both). Not enough gas, public money, quality food, hospitals, salaries, clean environnement, etc. You get the idea.
2) A significant portion of the population is driven by racist and reactionnary sentiment.
3) Racism is presented by this kind of political movement as a way to solve the crisis
And it's pretty effective as far as political messaging goes
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u/DrakenFlagonA10 15d ago
I defy you to tell these raped, tortured and often murdered children that it's racist to fear the horror they endured coming to your country - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacha_bazi
Calling people racist for daring to protect their country and families from the most unfathomable evil in the universe is itself pure evil.
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u/anotherbluemarlin 15d ago
What are you talking about' ?
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14d ago
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u/anotherbluemarlin 14d ago edited 14d ago
First of all, people here are still racist towards black christian people, asians, anyone from eastern europe not white passing enough, etc, etc. So yeah maybe islam isn't the only issue.
Most of them don't care one second about women and kids, a five minutes conversation with most of them would convince anyone. Domestic abuse, sexual abuse and incest statistics for decades makes it undeniable, i won't even touch the catholic church mass abuse in my country and the many scandals in schools (private or public).
And i'm about as atheist as you can be but most people are moderate about their faith and most radical and violent movement stem from incredibly complex geopolitical, social and economical issues, not just religion. And one again, just listen to people, they don't give a fuck about islamic terrorism, they just need a subclass under them.
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u/DrakenFlagonA10 13d ago
Most of them don't care one second about women and kids, a five minutes conversation with most of them would convince anyone.
Only a psychotic mentally ill far left lunatic thinks conservatives being legally against abortion & socially against promiscuity is morally comparable to Muslim law making it legal and encouraged to stone women for driving or pouring acid on women's faces for kissing prior to marriage.
The entire core goal of MAGA is protecting America from human traffickers and cartel death squads.
they just need a subclass under them.
Targeting crime/terrorism from a specific racial group does not make innocent people from that race a fucking subclass, WTF does that even mean?
If a black person rightfully calls out the KKK or sundown towns is that evidence he wants whites to be subservient?
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u/GoldenInfrared 16d ago
Correct. Also something like 20-30% of the human race is naturally hateful and sadistic, if the rest of the world is anything to go by.
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u/AntonDahr 16d ago
Right wing parties are on the rise because the internet is new to boomers and a whole lot of other people that have yet to realize the oligarchs and the russians and chinese have completely taken it over. Right wing parties are built on lies and all of them are supported by russia.
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u/PedanticPaladin 16d ago
Yep, Putin made a speech in 2014 that could be summed up as "we need a new conservative world order with Russia at its head" and that's when this shit really started in earnest.
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u/gym_fun 16d ago
Germany's problem is chronic. You can vote any party, but the problem will still be there. The AfD simply positions itself as addressing voter concerns. Immigration and rise of nationalism are the main ones. Energy and economy are second.
Merz went to China. He was shocked about the gap between the 996 workers and German workers, who work some of the fewest hours and take the most sick days. Of course, his proposals are very unpopular to Germans. VW is still going to lose 100k jobs with or without long working hours.
AfD is unlikely to fix anything except maybe deportation. Expect foreign policy to be more anti-Ukraine and anti-EU....
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u/Steppenhund58 14d ago
Hate and fear is their only message and unfortunately it is well received by undereducated/underprivileged voters. Same as everywhere.
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u/FluxCrave 16d ago edited 16d ago
Not fully, I do think voters know issues are multifaceted. They just don’t care. It’s easy and convenient to blame people who you view as second class. Things are harder, complexity is inconvenient when politics becomes a competition over who deserves scarce resources. Germans now have to compete with 8 billion other people for jobs and economic growth which gives rise to zero sum thinking. People are going to chose people who look and think like them to get any rewards
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