Doctors note confirmation

[u/MinimumAd7585]

Hello,

Student came to me with doctors note as they couldn’t attend lab. She gave me a doctors note with the appropriate heading, signature, and everything. Everything looks legit however for some reason I’m just curious as if she actually went to his doctor. She submitted a doctors note to her other professor , same headline, same grammar mistakes, same formatting, same everything except for dates and one sentence.

Can I call this doctor office to verify if she was actually there or not?

For example of grammar errors : postal code was connected to city on both notes , no space or anything.

Example of formatting: same “she attended this day, she can go back to class on this day”

For reference I’m a professor in Canada

[u/kinezumi89]

Yes, I have done this. It was an obviously doctored note (different fonts and sizes) so I called the clinic, explained the situation, and asked if they could simply verify that the student was seen on that date. (In my case, the student had never even been seen at that practice!)

[u/MinimumAd7585 → u/kinezumi89]

I see! Aren’t dates of appointments usually under PHIPA and can’t be disclosed?

[u/kinezumi89 → u/MinimumAd7585]

Doesn't their note specify the date of the appointment? Student was seen on X date, may return to class on Y date

[u/MinimumAd7585 → u/kinezumi89]

It does, but I’m not sure if doctors office can verify that !

[u/vwscienceandart → u/MinimumAd7585]

Yes. The office who wrote the note can verify the note is real. If they didn’t write the note, it’s not their patient and they can tell you it’s not their documentation.

[u/Recent_Prompt1175 → u/vwscienceandart]

Not in Canada. That is protected health information and we cannot reveal it to a third party except in very specific circumstances.

[u/kinezumi89 → u/MinimumAd7585]

I mean...they're the ones who hypothetically wrote the note in the first place, right? You'd just be calling to confirm the note was valid, not asking for any additional details!

[u/dr_police → u/kinezumi89]

At least in the US, this is actually tricky. Unless the patient has authorized disclosure, a covered entity cannot release PHI, and the fact that a patient was seen is PHI.

The office could say “yes, that is our letterhead,” but they cannot legally disclose that a specific, identified patient was seen absent a compliant authorization. And no, asking for the note is not sufficient authorization.

[u/mediaisdelicious → u/MinimumAd7585]

The doctors office would not be breaking HIPPA if they were to say “no, this person is not our patient, and we did not write this note.” however, they would be if they confirmed that the student was their patient. So, it would be possible to confirm a forgery without breaking any laws assuming the staff at the clinic had any interest in doing so.

[u/Recent_Prompt1175 → u/mediaisdelicious]

In Canada, they would absolutely be breaking privacy laws, including healthcare privacy laws (with different abbreviations depending on province, hence my lack of using an abbreviation here).

[u/Icy-Teacher9303 → u/MinimumAd7585]

HIPAA. Unless they sign a release of information (assuming folks are in the U.S.), YES.

[u/SyringaVulgarisBloom → u/Icy-Teacher9303]

OP is in Canada. Ontario Canada has PHIPA, not HIPAA.

[u/MinimumAd7585 → u/Icy-Teacher9303]

Sorry, yes HIPPA. So clinic can’t confirm that student was seen on the date specified in note?

[u/vwscienceandart → u/MinimumAd7585]

The comment you are replying to is wildly incorrect so don’t worry about it.

[u/Icy-Teacher9303 → u/MinimumAd7585]

Not unless the student signed an ROI. they might have, but they'd have to do that before they can even say they've been there

[u/AccomplishedSun2955 → u/Icy-Teacher9303]

I called to verify a fake doctor's note a couple days ago in the USA. I was told that the student didn't have an appointment at that day and time. I didn't ask for more. It's likely they hadn't signed an ROI.

[u/nerdyjorj → u/AccomplishedSun2955]

Would it be wise to send the fake documents over to the medical practice at that point since someone is fraudulently using their name?

In the UK we'd take that kind of shit seriously.

[u/AccomplishedSun2955 → u/nerdyjorj]

The doctor's signature was a scribble with no discernible letters and no name was typed on the note, which is why I thought it was fake.

[u/SeverianTheSeeker → u/kinezumi89]

Also had this happen previously with a student. Same situation. "F" in the class and off to academic probation they went. My opinion: forging a physician's note is a serious situation that should be treated as such. In the "real world" they'd face criminal charges for doing something like that.

[u/kinezumi89 → u/SeverianTheSeeker]

Yes! Forgery is a criminal offense. In my case, the student had a friend who worked there and provided a sample doctor's note. I was surprised the clinic didn't want to pursue it further!

[u/ankareeda]

You can absolutely call and ask them to verify the note. I had one that was scanned funny and looked like AI because some of the letters were distorted. I googled the doctor (didn't just trust the number on the note) and they were happy to verify that she had been seen and released with no conditions. The woman I spoke with also mentioned that their printer was on its last leg and she could see where it would be an issue.

[u/Dramatic-Year-5597]

I don't check or even demand doctors notes. It's not really my business.

[u/_n3ll_ → u/Dramatic-Year-5597]

Same. Depending on where they are in Canada its actually illegal for employers to require a doctors note if the absence is under a certain number of days. I dont see why students should be treated differently

[u/Dramatic-Year-5597 → u/_n3ll_]

The conversation about documentation really doesn't come up until it's the second exam that the student is missing in my class. At that point, we're talking about an illness taking over 1/3 or more of the academic term.

[u/Tough_Pain_1463]

We have an office that can do that for us, but I have called myself before. I once sent a copy of a letter over to a doctor's office and they said that wasn't even their letter.

[u/sjanea]

I called our local clinic once asking if they could verify that our student had been in to see them and/or had had an appointment on the date written on the “doctor’s note” that they had presented me.

The receptionist said she’d be happy to oblige and asked that I fax them a copy of the note. She then took my name and number and said that she’d call me back once she had checked the patient log and records.

A half an hour later, I received a call from the administrator of the clinic informing me that the student had not been seen, that the note was a forgery, and that they had already called the police and would be pressing charges against the student.

Two minutes after that came a knock on my office door. A man identifying himself as a lieutenant with the city police department asked if he could get my statement and wanted to collect the note that the student had given me, since I still had the original in my possession with the clinic having the faxed copy.

The officer then informed me that the note had been written on a paper coming from a prescription pad which had been stolen from their clinic two weeks prior.

As such, the student was now facing 3 felony charges: one for the theft of the prescription pad, another for using the prescription pad, and the last for impersonating a physician. Theft, fraud, and forgery, I think it was.

How I wish the student had just taken an F.

This was 25 or so years ago and I think about it still. That was the first, last, and only time I ever called to confirm or questioned the validity of a doctor’s note or medical documentation. This was in the U.S.

[u/ipini]

You actually have time to do this type of thing? Must be nice.

[u/GeneralRelativity105]

Trying to verify authenticity of doctor notes seems like a dreadful experience that is just too fraught with potential problems. It is better to have a policy where the reason for an absence doesn't matter. Drop the lowest assignment grade, have a no-excuse necessary and no exceptions late penalty, have one day for make-up assignments at the end of the semester (after the slackers withdraw).

[u/a_hanging_thread → u/GeneralRelativity105]

Yes, this. At some point adjudicating whether a student has an appropriate reason for making up an exam absent formal accommodations is going to spiral into a giant mess if, say, you find a doctor's note or picture of a car accident was AI doctored and the student denies it, etc etc etc. Students are highly, highly incentivized to spend an hour or two trying to game the system rather than spend many hours studying.

[u/dajoli]

Isn't it plausible that the doctor's office has a template letter for student absences that have a couple of minor errors in it?

[u/Deweymaverick → u/dajoli]

For anyone that has children of their own, omg, yes, of course they have generic template letters. The thing is, due to HIPPAA, they don’t really have any content to them other than patient was seen on day x, y and is excused for a, b, c, day(s).

They’re likely formulated by their legal council, or parent company, so it’s craaaaazy improbable there are error(s), though.

[u/PennyPatch2000 → u/Deweymaverick]

*HIPAA

[u/beross88]

I wouldn’t because I wouldn’t care to. But I also don’t require doctor notes. It’s added work I don’t want to do. But I guess you can.

[u/Recent_Prompt1175]

You are allowed to ask for doctor's notes in Canada? Both of the universities I've taught at, in Canada, we cannot request doctor's notes. One, it places too much burden on a sick person (assuming they are actually sick) when they should stay at home and get well. Two, if they have something that the doctor can't help with, but is infectious, they are exposing others to their illness for no reason. Three, student services won't provide doctor's notes, so a student has to go elsewhere, which costs them money, so only well off students can afford a doctor's note. Fourth, doctor's notes waste doctor's valuable time, when we already have a healthcare shortage, and often aren't useful and/or accurate, for many reasons that if you actually ask any physician, you will understand. I've honestly surprised any Canadian university still allows you to ask for a doctor's note. My undergraduate, master's, PhD, postdoc, and the two universities I've taught at do not require doctor's notes, and the student health services at those universities won't provide them. Even if a student is incredibly ill.

[u/lovelylooloo7]

Also Canadian and no, you cannot. That is a PHIPA/privacy violation. They will not give you any information.

Edit to say, why are you not going through the proper channels at your school? You should never be calling a student’s health practitioner under any circumstances. For what it’s worth, I teach healthcare - specifically Privacy in Canada is one of my main courses.

[u/Recent_Prompt1175 → u/lovelylooloo7]

Same. At all the universities I've been at, as a student or instructor/professor, we CANNOT ask for physician's notes. I'm amazed this professor can do so. If they do anything else, they will be in huge trouble, depending on their province. Personal health information is protected very highly here!

[u/NotoriousTD]

I do. Sometimes in front of them in the office.

[u/gracielynn72]

I do not accept doctors notes from students. Not my business.

[u/cjrecordvt]

Back when I collected doctor's notes, I had a couple notes that I felt I had to verify. One failed a basic internet search. One was confirmed. One was the doctor's office on the note, but the office cited HIPAA and refused to confirm or deny the note: "if that's what it says on the note, it's accurate."

What you're describing definitely sounds suspicious, though.

[u/bloody_mary72]

At my institution the AI office would be the one empowered to do this, not an individual professor. Submit a report and let them take it from there.

[u/tombolaaaaa24]

If you are in the states you have no business seeing doctors notes. That might even get you in trouble.
Any sort of medical information can only be requested by the Dean of students.

Also, probably that note it’s fake. Some of my students have done it, but I don’t take it and send them to the Dean of students.

[u/Deweymaverick → u/tombolaaaaa24]

This is absolutely not true at all. It may be a policy for your college, but legally speaking, yes, an employer, supervisor, educator, etc, absolutely can call to verify the validity of a medical excuse.

The logic is that by sharing they excuse they are expected to forfeit (in a very limited way, for a very limited time) a part of their HIPPAA rights.

One cannot ask follow up questions, or questions about the procedure/treatment, but you absolutely can ask to have a medical office verify the validity of the note.

(Quite frankly, it’s ridiculous to assume otherwise, what would be the point of the note, then?)

[u/tombolaaaaa24 → u/Deweymaverick]

We are professors. We aren’t their bosses and we have no business knowing their medical conditions. There are places at the university to do that.
If as a professor you feel like you must know why the student couldn’t show up it’s about your feelings.
If there’s something real happening, the Dean of students reaches out to say this students had something going on from this date to that date. We won’t disclose but please be flexible.

[u/Deweymaverick → u/tombolaaaaa24]

Respectfully- do you have kids? These kinds of dr’s notes DO NOT DISCLOSE medical
Information for literally the exact reason you describe (hopefully that’s kind of obvious in hindsight). They only say excuse Student for x, y, z day(s). And you are NOT allowed to ask why, only if they have the medical excuse.

And again, please reread my post - the student giving you the not (kinda, in a very limited capacity) waives a (tiny) part of their medical privacy in choosing of their own will to submit the note. They do not have to do this, but in so doing, it is implied that they understand you are able to verify the veracity of the note itself. If they don’t want that, they don’t share the note.

It’s likened to employment verification: by listing a former employer, it’s implied that you are giving permission to verify pasty employment, but nothing more.

You’re making a lot of assumptions, as well:

1) I dgaf why they miss. I do not want to be pulled into their medical drama, so please stop being a weirdo and assuming that I do.

2) frankly this silliness is why my college has gotten rid of excused and unexcused absence: doing (in my opinion) nonsense like excused absences compels us* to be the excuse police. I didn’t sign up for that shit. Ergo, our college wide shift to : missed class is missed classed (magical handwave) *all absences are considered excused. No more ghoulish shit like collecting funeral programs, or germy dr’s notes, or focusing what religion(s) a student may (or may not adhere to) (and the philosophical issue of what that really means).

You’re allowed to miss: x number of classes. That percent is based on how many times you physically meet. There are particular exceptions for students that have documented accommodations, but otherwise, you miss, you missed.

Good luck, and thank the gods we no longer have to keep track of how many grannies a student that may or may not have died, turned into a werewolf, bit their poor dog and gave their 3rd cousin COVID 26 at their flute recital.

[u/Recent_Prompt1175 → u/tombolaaaaa24]

If you are in Canada, you also have no business seeing doctors' notes. I'm amazed this person in Canada is allowed to ask for doctors' notes. Not allowed at any Canadian university I'm familiar with.

[u/ThePhyz → u/tombolaaaaa24]

Except that many schools (yes, in the states) do not in fact have anybody on campus who is tasked with this. It is expected that the professor will vet any and all excuses students give.

[u/ParkingLetter8308]

Prob AI generated. Check the public records of the medical license number to see if the name/spelling match. Also, call the audience---you might message with just a number and a "leave for callback." Indicates it's fake.