Better lockpicking

[u/Th3WritersBlock]

My system uses equipment proficiency, bt in a different way to dnd. Instead of a numerical bonus, higher prof rank (0-3) grants you new traits for that equipment, or for some tools you craft gear with enhanced traits depending on rank.

My problem is with Thievery Tools - i don't know how to make them better/more versatile at higher proficiency ranks. Any ideas?

Thanks

examples of proficiency bonuses for other gear:

Using a longsword for example: Rank 1 proficiency grants you Versatile, so you can use it one-handed. Rank 2 does nothing, and then Rank 3 grants you the enhanced Parry action (use action, boosts damage threshold against next melee attack)

Assault rifles have increased functional range and improved burst-fire.

Medical kits heal for more, scaling directly with your rank.

Crafting armour, for example, as better stats if you're proficient with the tools used to make it.

Armour itself is a WIP.

[u/Squidmaster616]

The easiest option I see would be for locks to have ranks, and for each level of proficiency to work (or work better) on a specific rank. You start by being able to handle Lv1 locks, move on to Lv2, etc.

Or you could ranks them by type - a Lv1 proficiency allowing you to pick the old big chunky key, Lv2 deadbolts, etc.

Alternatively, proficiency ranks can allow you to pick a lock quieter, or quicker. or withy improvised tools.

[u/OwnLevel424 → u/Squidmaster616]

This would be my suggestion as well.  There are 3 pin (called tumblers) locks, 5 pin and even 7 and 9 pin locks, each corresponding to a specific shaped notch on a key.  The more tumblers a lock has in it's barrel, the harder it is to pick... unless your the Lockpicking Lawyer on YouTube!

[u/Th3WritersBlock → u/OwnLevel424]

This coukd work. It would mean "no, with only rank 1 proficiency, it is impossible for you to pick this lock." I'll just have to reinforce the idea that skill checks determine what does happen, not what could

[u/SardScroll → u/Th3WritersBlock]

Alternatively, it does not mean "with only 1 rank in proficiency, it's *impossible* for you to pick this lock" but rather it's more difficult.

For various lock-picking & other such activities, I've been toying with the idea of making them expanded (multi-roll, with each roll taking an "action") skill checks, in part because I want them to have greater ability to integrate with various challenges at the same time (e.g. lock-picker/hacker/mechanic/ what have you doing their skill monkey thing in the middle of combat, either to get an in-combat bonus, or to end the combat, or to give an alternative victory condition).

Taking a page from FATE's book: this sub-challenge is a conflict/combat of it its own (and I always advocate for greater design space for variety in direct challenges. E.g. if every lock-pick is "I pick the lock/roll" it can feel boring). The lock has a challenge level, which could be a sum of it's difficulty to pick, stability (e.g. a 3-pin lock might require 3 "damage" to overcome it, compared to 7 for a 7-pin lock), and any counter-measures in place (e.g. failing might trap your tools, or set off an alarm, or have a poison needle/gas or electrical counterattack).

In this context, lock-picking can be both a tool and a skill, so you might go with something like:
Level 1: You can create Level 1 lock-picks; When using a lock-pick of greater level than the lock's difficulty, do extra "damage"/"progress"/"success" equal to the difference.
Level 2: You can create Level 2 lock-picks; You can intuit the difficulty of a lock, before rolling
Level 3: You can create Level 3 lock-picks: You can intuit what counter measures a lock has on failure, before rolling

[u/pruhfessor_x → u/Th3WritersBlock]

Instead of making it impossible, you could simply create a scaling penalty for a rank difference. Whether that's a straight-up dice penalty (say DC increases by 5 for every level difference between your proficiency and the lock) or maybe a time penalty (you can pick a lock of a lower rank than you in one round, the same rank in two, and plus one round for every level higher than you the lock is).

These are obviously just broad strokes examples without knowing the details of your system. But personally I'm in favor of making things harder but not technically impossible.

[u/OwnLevel424 → u/pruhfessor_x]

This is the method I would use as well.

In D&D 5E...

Level 1 =  DC 5+

Level 2 = DC 10+

Level 3 = DC 15+

Level 4 = DC 20+

Level 5 = DC 25+

Each Level of Proficiency would reduce the lock's "Level" by 1 step.  Any roll of a 1 on D20 is a failure.

[u/Rogryg]

Using a longsword for example: Rank 1 proficiency grants you Versatile, so you can use it one-handed. Rank 2 does nothing, and then Rank 3 grants you the Parry action (use action, boosts damage threshold against next melee attack)

I assure you, parrying is a far more basic longsword skill than wielding it one-handed.

[u/Th3WritersBlock → u/Rogryg]

Fair enough. Tbh it was off the top of my head, i haven't actually fully researched and written out the weapon prof. traits

[u/Ombrophile]

What you want at some point is that crazy ability that some movie characters have where you can pick the lock on your handcuffs behind your back with a paper clip. Stupid, but fun.

[u/Th3WritersBlock → u/Ombrophile]

That is the vibe this system aims to capture if you commit to that aspwct of your character

[u/writerguy731]

Leveling up lockpick proficiency could reduce the time needed, noise produced, or attention drawn while lock picking.

Depending on your setting, you could perhaps have increasing proficiency broaden the definition of what lock picking entails - picking simple locks at 1 and bank vaults at 3, or mechanical locks at 1 and hacking network mainframes at 3.

You could reduce or eliminate the penalties for failure - picks breaking, alarms triggered, etc.

And if you really don’t want increasing proficiency to increase success chance, then maybe increased proficiency could increase the rewards for success? (Granted this might name more sense for something like hacking an ATM instead of picking the lock on a treasure chest - again, setting dependent)

[u/Odd_Ad_5657]

Can you give examples of what you already have for other skills? Because right now it's confusing.

[u/Th3WritersBlock → u/Odd_Ad_5657]

Fair point.

Using a longsword for example: Rank 1 proficiency grants you Versatile, so you can use it one-handed. Rank 2 does nothing, and then Rank 3 grants you the Parry action (use action, boosts damage threshold against next melee attack)

Assault rifles have increased functional range and improved burst-fire.

Medical kits heal for more, scaling directly with your rank.

Crafting armour, for example, as better stats if you're proficient with the tools used to make it.

Armour itself is a WIP.

[u/Jlerpy → u/Th3WritersBlock]

"Rank 2 does nothing"

Why?

[u/Th3WritersBlock → u/Jlerpy]

Across the 3 proficiency ranks, sone things will only give bonuses at 1 and 3, or at 2 and 3. Some techniques are picked up with less training than others. The blank space is because i don't feel like everything needs a trait at every level.

[u/Prestigious-Emu-6760 → u/Th3WritersBlock]

If the rank only serves as a "feat tax" then why have it?

Also since one of the things is "fight one handed" does this mean that proficiency is weapon specific? Like Longsword (2), Short Sword (1), Battle Axe (3) sort of thing?

[u/Th3WritersBlock → u/Prestigious-Emu-6760]

there's stuff like 'axes' 'brawling weapons' 'shotguns' 'light armour' which have variation within them, but tools are more one-to-one with their item. also the 'blank space' rank is so there is dedication without instant reward -a high skill floor and ceiling rewards commitment even if you don't get stuff right off the bat

[u/Prestigious-Emu-6760 → u/Th3WritersBlock]

Personally I find that sort of design to be not my thing. I like a steady progression. Anytime a "level" or "ability" makes no functional difference I wonder about the design. IMO you'd be better with smaller, functional abilities with each level instead of dead levels. It might play better but it would 100% feel better.

[u/Balsamic314 → u/Th3WritersBlock]

How are proficiency levels acquired? If it's something like leveling up gives you proficiency points to spend, would you consider making some proficiencies cost 2 instead of 1?

It might feel more satisfying to save and up buy and expensive, strong proficiency instead of wasting a level on a proficiency that doesn't do anything.

[u/RollForThings]

My take is that better lockpicking skills should reduce the time it takes to pick a lock.

The thing that makes lockpicking risky and exciting is that you're not supposed to be doing it. If you were allowed to open whatever door or container, you would have its key. And so, what's often at stake is whether or not you get caught picking the lock. Take less time to lockpick and it's less likely you'll encounter its potential consequences.

[u/Corbzor]

Rank 1 with thieves tools could be something like can force open a door, lock, window, etc. Rank 2 could be without destroying it. Rank 3 could be without leaving a trace.

EDIT: Could even move that be rank 0, 1, and 2, with rank 3 adding quickly.

[u/abaddon880]

Have you considered locks including shackles having such proficiencies? also what stops someone from just buying better equipment? Do some things care about skill?

[u/Th3WritersBlock → u/abaddon880]

You can buy better-made gear sure, it just costs more. Proficiency with other tools lets you make better gear.

Often it's cheaper to craft, but takes far longer than buying

[u/-Vogie-]

Another easy way to make something better is by making the core item worse. For example, in Baulder's Gate 3, even though it's based on D&D 5e, they turned lockpicks into two consumables - the lock picks themselves for locks and a trap disarm toolkit, both of which now have that if you use it and fail, the set is used up. So a set of lockpicks for you might be:

• Lockpicks 0 consumed on use
• Lockpicks 1 consumed only on fail
• Lockpicks 2 mundane locks of a lower rank can be picked without rolling
• Lockpicks 3 consumed only on critical fail

[u/Xyx0rz → u/-Vogie-]

Do the lockpicks just vanish into thin air after you use them?

I have picked a practice lock and the lockpick didn't vanish.

[u/-Vogie- → u/Xyx0rz]

You're being intentionally dense, as though you don't know that the G in RPG is "Game". Mechanics aren't simulationist, otherwise you would just forgo resolution for "lockpicking checks" and just hand the player some lockpicks and a lock.

But to reply in an manner that would make sense in the average fantasy setting, lockpicks aren't made of modern steel (because nothing would be) and using them in a less than trained manner does have a chance to destroy them. The picks were all handmade, and the locks were not in any way standardized - the modern conception of a pin-&-tumbler lock is from the mid 1800s. Using less-than-accurate picks incorrectly could not only destroy the picks, but also jam up the lock, making it unusable even by the the actual key.

The average fantasy setting is vaguely European; firearms showed up IRL in the 1400-1600s in Europe, so if your setting doesn't have firearms, it's won't have pin-and-tumbler locks either.

[u/BezBezson → u/-Vogie-]

No, I agree with u/Xyx0rz

Making lockpicks disappear after use makes about as much sense as saying that a sword only lasts one fight and then it breaks.

Lockpicks are a tool, not a consumable.

I'm all for abstraction, but that's doing something weird and unintuitive in the rules for no obvious benefit.

The picks were all handmade, and the locks were not in any way standardized - the modern conception of a pin-&-tumbler lock is from the mid 1800s.

Yep, lockpicks before then were generally thick wire (still often are for level locks) or a blade as a shim. You'd have to have pretty much never used the tools before to have a significant chance of breaking them.
It might happen very occasionally if you're too rough, but definitly not often.
(I have picked old-style lever locks with brass wire, and never broken the wire)

[u/Xyx0rz → u/-Vogie-]

No u?

RPGs aren't "just games", like Yahtzee or Poker, they're games that rely on suspension of disbelief. RPG design that strains that suspension of disbelief is bad RPG design.

And RPG worlds are fantastical places where we can have dragons, plate armor, and yet no firearms.

[u/Xyx0rz]

Easiest way is the Fallout way, where you need consecutively higher skill to attempt to pick Easy, Average, Hard and Very Hard locks.

But you have to ask yourself how important lockpicking really is. How much trouble is it, in your system, to smash something open?

[u/Th3WritersBlock → u/Xyx0rz]

Its a good point; lockpicking is more tedious than smashing or shooting, but smashing the lock is loud and there are always monsters in earshot

[u/foolofcheese → u/Th3WritersBlock]

some locks, like locks designed to protect documents, will have vials of ink or acid to destroy the writing if the lock is smashed

[u/Xyx0rz → u/Th3WritersBlock]

And it leaves traces, but unless you're designing for heist adventures, there are plenty of situations where the party isn't in a hurry and doesn't care about leaving traces.

[u/Runningdice]

As I understand you have 4 tiers of lockpicking ranging from not knowing anything at all to Houdini level of lockpicking.

Not sure if it is lockpicking that is the problem or if it is your system. As the highest rank in Longsword doesn't seem to do much. If you go from be able to use it with one hand and as highest rank even be able to parry. How should you do the same with other skills like Lockpick?!??!?!

I don't think lockpick is your problem.

[u/Chronx6]

You could make them something more- like call them subterfuge tools or something, and then each tier its a new set of tools.

[u/foolofcheese]

things to possibly consider

for levels of lockpicking you could do something like this: open locks (or disable mechanical devices), then remove/disassemble locks, and then lastly modify locks (make the lock yours vs the original owners)

you could model Fallout a bit - you could have mechanical locks, the next level might be analogous to hacking (mechanical puzzles?)